The Tulip is broken

[drstevej]

Then I would ask you if you really believed. For what you are saying here is not the words of belief but of doubt.. For you have your eyes on you and not on Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith.. We believe what scripture tells us. Remember what scripture tells us about the double minded man.. We walk by faith and not by sight.. We take God at His word.

Exactly. That is what Calvin means by "Christ is the mirror of our election." It is as we focus on him that we see ourselves as belonging to him. He is our assurance and our security.

 

[Jac3510]

I'm going to let this drop. When I say, "How do you know you are not deceived in stating that you believe," and you respond with, "I know in whom I have believed," I don't see anywhere else to go. When I put myself in your shoes (or under your theology) and ask for assurance, and you respond with, "But have you really believed?", when my entire question is, "how do you know if you've really believed?", I don't see anywhere else to go.

I don't want to be taken the wrong way, as if I'm being combative or disrepectful. Maybe I'll try again later. But in general, this is why I could never be a Calvinist (again). The conversation always runs the same:

Me: How do you know you're saved?
Cal: Because I've believed!
Me: But how do you know you aren't deceived?
Cal: Because I trust Jesus!
Me: You trust Jesus for what?
Cal: To save me!
Me: And why will Jesus save you?
Cal: Because I believed!
Me: But how do you know you aren't deceived? . . .

Anyway, you guys can have the last word. I don't want to come out of the box making enemies, so I'll let this go. If this point comes up in future conversation, we can discuss it again at that juncture.

God bless

 

[drstevej]

Work on reading comprehension. You do not get it.

 

[JDS]

Quote MamaZ
Then I would ask you if you really believed. For what you are saying here is not the words of belief but of doubt.. For you have your eyes on you and not on Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith.. We believe what scripture tells us. Remember what scripture tells us about the double minded man.. We walk by faith and not by sight.. We take God at His word End Quote

This man JAC3510 has made excellent points that none of you have answered. This should make you people examine yourselves. I knew none of you were going to give him an answer.

 

[Jac3510]

Work on reading comprehension. You do not get it.

That was a little rude . . . I apologize if I said anything previously to offend you. I was only trying to get at the nature of belief. If I had known you were going to take it so personally and make such a negative comment, I would have let it go earlier.

God bless

 

[drstevej]

That was a little rude . . . I apologize if I said anything previously to offend you. I was only trying to get at the nature of belief. If I had known you were going to take it so personally and make such a negative comment, I would have let it go earlier.

God bless

It was not intended to be rude. I have repeatedly answered the question and you keep re-asking it. You mistake frustration for rudeness.

Saving Faith and Regeneration are inseparable. A faith that departs is not saving faith.

 

[frumanchu]

Saving Faith and Regeneration are inseparable. A faith that departs is not saving faith.

Amen! 1 John 2:19

 

[nobdysfool]

This man JAC3510 has made excellent points that none of you have answered. This should make you people examine yourselves. I knew none of you were going to give him an answer.

Easy to say, hard to prove. You're just piling on. The "me too" remark.

The biggest problem with his posts is that he is trying to arrive at spiritual understanding from a psychological and humanistic starting point. True faith brings with it assurance. There is no way to quantify that, which is basically what he's trying to do. He has been answered, and answered well. Your bias keeps you from seeing it. QED

 

[MamaZ]

Quote MamaZ
Then I would ask you if you really believed. For what you are saying here is not the words of belief but of doubt.. For you have your eyes on you and not on Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith.. We believe what scripture tells us. Remember what scripture tells us about the double minded man.. We walk by faith and not by sight.. We take God at His word End Quote

This man JAC3510 has made excellent points that none of you have answered. This should make you people examine yourselves. I knew none of you were going to give him an answer.

We are to examine ourself to see if we are indeed in the faith.. We are to examine ourselves with the word of God for it is the only truth there is to examine ourselves with.. I gave an answer.. Get your eyes off of yourself and put it on Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith.. If this person is going to doubt the only truth there is the scripture.. You can either fear you may turn away or you can believe what Jesus said.. No one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand.. I choose to believe Christ in spite of myself.. This is part of dying to myself...

 

[Jac3510]

Easy to say, hard to prove. You're just piling on. The "me too" remark.

The biggest problem with his posts is that he is trying to arrive at spiritual understanding from a psychological and humanistic starting point. True faith brings with it assurance. There is no way to quantify that, which is basically what he's trying to do. He has been answered, and answered well. Your bias keeps you from seeing it. QED

Wait, are you all saying that "true faith" is irrational/illogical?

 

[Van]

Here are the four points of the TULIP, in John MacArthur's words, that I believe are unbiblical.

“Total depravity” means you can’t do anything to save yourself. You can’t even make a right choice. You can’t awaken your spiritual deadness. You can’t give life where there is death. You can’t come to a right conclusion on your own. Total depravity means that everyone, is by virtue of their own will and their own power and their own choices, incapable of redemption. That’s total depravity.”

This statement is almost biblical, only the “bolded” sentences are unbiblical. God sets before us the choice between life and death, and therefore to say we are unable to choose life contradicts scripture. To avoid the obvious contradiction, Calvinists say when you choose the only choice available, death, you are actually making a “choice.” But that redefines “choice” to mean “non-choice.” Jesus teaches in Matthew 13:20-22 that some men who are dead in their trespasses and sins received the gospel with joy, certainly the right choice. Therefore the "T" in the Tulip is unbiblical if it is asserted to apply to all men.

“In the case of “Unconditional election”, you have the view in the Scripture that the people who are saved are saved because they were chosen by God apart from any merit of their own, apart from any condition.”

This statement is completely unbiblical, James 2:5 tells us God chooses people based on their condition, those rich in faith, those that love God, and those who do not treasure the things of this world. Paul teaches a similar truth in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. And again, Paul teaches that God chooses people in his day, just as God chose people who were faithful in Romans 11:3-6. John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish.

“Limited atonement”, in the typical reformed view, means that the atonement, in its actual work, the actual efficacy of the atonement, was only for the elect.”

Again, this statement is completely unbiblical, 1 John 2:2 tells us that Christ became the propitiation (means of salvation) not only for us (members of the Church) but also for the whole world. Paul tells us He laid down His life as a ransom for all. Therefore the finished work of the cross provides (1) the means of salvation available to all men, and (2) provides salvation for anyone spiritually placed in Christ.

“Irresistible grace”, which is the idea that when the spirit of God works on the heart of a sinner, the sinner can’t resist.”

And finally, this too, is almost biblical. But it is carefully crafted to blend the idea that God's will, what ever it is, cannot be resisted, with the false idea that God's will is to compel people with Irresistible Grace to trust in Christ. However, in Matthew 23:13 men who are entering, or trying to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh, and therefore could not be turned aside because of irresistible grace if the premise were true, are turned aside and do not enter. Therefore it is God's will to allow men to accept or reject the gospel and not compel them as Calvinism wrongly asserts.

 

[drstevej]

Calvinists say when you choose the only choice available, death, you are actually making a “choice.”

Hogwash

Give me a choice of boiled okra or chocolate cake and my choice is obvious. I hate boiled okra.

Unregenerate hate the way of the cross. They choose Satan's lies and the pleasures of sin.

BTW, you missed the best verse in responding to the "L".

 

[Van]

Hi Jac3510, I see by your proposed dialog you think Calvinists say they chose to believe. No, that is not quite right. They believe all people are unable to believe, so when they believed, it was God's regeneration so they were not deceived. Now those who say they believe, then fall away, those did not truly believe. They were being either hypocritical or we self deceived. It is a completely bankrupt view, yet they cling to it like confederate currency.

At the end of the day, none of us "know" that our beliefs are true, but we have faith in them none the less.

 

[Van]

Calvinists like to say non-choice is the same as choice, for them words only mean what they redefine them to mean. ROFLOL

 

[nobdysfool]

Wait, are you all saying that "true faith" is irrational/illogical?

Not at all. In fact, faith in God is eminently logical. But how one arrives at True Faith in God is not within themselves to obtain. And by "True Faith" in God, I mean Saving Faith, because logically, any faith which does not spring from Salvation, is not Saving Faith. God saves. Those whom He saves are the saved. They do not save themselves, they are saved by Him.

 

[drstevej]

Calvinists like to say non-choice is the same as choice, for them words only mean what they redefine them to mean. ROFLOL

Give me a choice of boiled okra or chocolate cake and my choice is obvious. I hate boiled okra.

Unregenerate hate the way of the cross. They choose Satan's lies and the pleasures of sin.

======

You can get up off the floor now

 

[cygnusx1]

Here are the four points of the TULIP, in John MacArthur's words, that I believe are unbiblical.

“Total depravity” means you can’t do anything to save yourself. You can’t even make a right choice. You can’t awaken your spiritual deadness. You can’t give life where there is death. You can’t come to a right conclusion on your own. Total depravity means that everyone, is by virtue of their own will and their own power and their own choices, incapable of redemption. That’s total depravity.”

This statement is almost biblical, only the “bolded” sentences are unbiblical. God sets before us the choice between life and death, and therefore to say we are unable to choose life contradicts scripture. To avoid the obvious contradiction, Calvinists say when you choose the only choice available, death, you are actually making a “choice.” But that redefines “choice” to mean “non-choice.” Jesus teaches in Matthew 13:20-22 that some men who are dead in their trespasses and sins received the gospel with joy, certainly the right choice. Therefore the "T" in the Tulip is unbiblical if it is asserted to apply to all men.

“In the case of “Unconditional election”, you have the view in the Scripture that the people who are saved are saved because they were chosen by God apart from any merit of their own, apart from any condition.”

This statement is completely unbiblical, James 2:5 tells us God chooses people based on their condition, those rich in faith, those that love God, and those who do not treasure the things of this world. Paul teaches a similar truth in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. And again, Paul teaches that God chooses people in his day, just as God chose people who were faithful in Romans 11:3-6. John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish.

“Limited atonement”, in the typical reformed view, means that the atonement, in its actual work, the actual efficacy of the atonement, was only for the elect.”

Again, this statement is completely unbiblical, 1 John 2:2 tells us that Christ became the propitiation (means of salvation) not only for us (members of the Church) but also for the whole world. Paul tells us He laid down His life as a ransom for all. Therefore the finished work of the cross provides (1) the means of salvation available to all men, and (2) provides salvation for anyone spiritually placed in Christ.

“Irresistible grace”, which is the idea that when the spirit of God works on the heart of a sinner, the sinner can’t resist.”

And finally, this too, is almost biblical. But it is carefully crafted to blend the idea that God's will, what ever it is, cannot be resisted, with the false idea that God's will is to compel people with Irresistible Grace to trust in Christ. However, in Matthew 23:13 men who are entering, or trying to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh, and therefore could not be turned aside because of irresistible grace if the premise were true, are turned aside and do not enter. Therefore it is God's will to allow men to accept or reject the gospel and not compel them as Calvinism wrongly asserts.

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[MamaZ]

Well even Peter had to have revealed to Him who Christ was.. Read MT.. For no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the holy Spirit..

 

[Van]

The TULIP is broken. That is the topic.

The "T" refers to total spiritual inability and that assertion is unbiblical. Matthew 13:20-22 teaches that unregenerate folks have the ability to accept the gospel with joy, so while some folks have hardened themselves with the practice of sin, they have lost what spiritual ability they had, and therefore cannot understand the gospel, this condition does not apply to all men, according to Jesus.

The "U" refers to Unconditional election and that assertion is unbiblical. God chooses folks based on their characteristics, he credits their faith as righteousness. James 2:5, Romans 4:5.

The "L" refers to Limited Atonement and this assertion as defined by Calvinism, is unbiblical. 1 John 2:2 tells us Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. Christ laid down his life as a ransom for all.

The "I" refers to Irresistible Grace and this assertion is unbiblical. Matthew 23:13 teaches us of folks who were entering heaven, and thus, according to the false doctrine of Calvinism, were under the influence of Irresistible Grace, yet they were turned aside by false teachers.

Thus the TULIP is broken four out of five ways. The only doctrine that is biblical is that once God causes a person to be born again, He keeps them for their inheritance reserved in heaven for them, 1 Peter 1:3-5.

 

[MamaZ]

So how can one confess Christ?