The Tulip is broken

Van · Oct 21, 2008

Folks, no matter how many Calvinists post the falsehood, Ephesians 2:8 indicates salvation is a gift through faith, not that faith is a gift. D Wallace, a Greek scholar agrees with this position. Only those devoid of integrity make the argument that the pronoun transliterated as houtos (neuter gender) points to the female gender of the word translated faith. According to Wallace, when the pronoun points to the whole phrase, rather an individual word, the neuter form of the pronoun is used. And the phrase, by grace you have been saved through faith, refers to a persons salvation, so the gift is salvation not faith. QED

Van · Oct 21, 2008

Now we await from any Calvinist the assertion that the the pronoun in the neuter points to the female gender noun translated faith. None will be forthcoming folks. They are bluff and bluster, pathetically trying to change the subject to my knowledge of Greek, rather than the truth the Greek grammar proclaims - which is those who claim that Ephesians 2:8 supports the idea that we are saved by the gift of faith. Such an assertion is simply false.

The TULIP is broken, and its supporting verses actually do not support the false assertions of the TULIP. It is unbiblical, a relic from the dark ages.

MamaZ · Oct 21, 2008

Well we certainly are not saved by the will of man..

nobdysfool · Oct 21, 2008

MamaZ said:
Well we certainly are not saved by the will of man..

Amen to that, sister! We contributed nothing to our salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, top to bottom, side to side.

MamaZ · Oct 21, 2008

We are saved by the grace of God through faith and that not of ourselves but a gift from God.. Grace is unmerited favor.. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence not seen.. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.. Not born out of mans own will ..

oworm · Oct 21, 2008

Van said:
Folks, no matter how many Calvinists post the falsehood, Ephesians 2:8 indicates salvation is a gift through faith, not that faith is a gift. D Wallace, a Greek scholar agrees with this position. Only those devoid of integrity make the argument that the pronoun transliterated as houtos (neuter gender) points to the female gender of the word translated faith. According to Wallace, when the pronoun points to the whole phrase, rather an individual word, the neuter form of the pronoun is used. And the phrase, by grace you have been saved through faith, refers to a persons salvation, so the gift is salvation not faith. QED

Van
You made a claim in an earlier post that the greek grammar in Ephesians 2:8 precludes faith as a gift from God and you still avoid the question and fail to substantiate your claim based on your own implied knowledge of the text! Instead you appeal to a scholar and second hand knowledge to uphold your position.
Then you say that

van said:
only those devoid of integrity make the argument that the pronoun transliterated houtos (neuter gender) points the female gender of the word translitered faith.

I don't see any post where this argument has been made. Can you point me to any posts that make this argument?

Folks,please note that Van is actually the one teetering in the edge of integrity as he continues to avoid the question which relates to his self proclaimed knowledge of the greek text. Why do you continue to avoid engaging on this question Van?

oworm · Oct 21, 2008

Van said:
Now we await from any Calvinist the assertion that the the pronoun in the neuter points to the female gender noun translated faith. None will be forthcoming folks.

Your wrong and right Van. No Calvinist is going to make any such assertion. So yes no assertion will be forthcoming that claims a neuter noun pointing back to a female gender noun.

They are bluff and bluster, pathetically trying to change the subject to my knowledge of Greek, rather than the truth the Greek grammar proclaims - which is those who claim that Ephesians 2:8 supports the idea that we are saved by the gift of faith. Such an assertion is simply false.

Van, it was YOU who implied knowledge of the greek text.It was you who changed the subject!

The TULIP is broken, and its supporting verses actually do not support the false assertions of the TULIP. It is unbiblical, a relic from the dark ages.

LOL. this derision is childish especially coming from someone as senior in years as you.

Come on Van. Can you answer the question or cant you!

oworm · Oct 21, 2008

Originally Posted by Van

Ephesians 2:8 does not say faith is a gift of God. Greek grammar precludes that interpretation, yet it is posted again and again, as if truth does not matter. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God through our faith in Christ.

Van, It seemed apparent from your statement above that what you posted was out of a pre existent knowledge of the greek text? All I am asking is that you show from your own understanding of the greek grammar how the text of Ehp 2:8 precludes the interpretation that faith is a gift from God?

I am only asking that you substantiate your claim by referring to the greek grammar itself and showing from your own parsing of the text what you believe to be the correct exegesis. As a self proclaimed student of greek-implicit from your claim- you should be able to do that!

Why would you not be willing to do that since you yourself made the claim? Why would you not be willing to go to the greek text which is the closest to the original autograph that we have and substantiate your claim authoritively and exegetically? I would have thought this would be a golden opportunity to show decisivly and irrefutably from the infallible and inerrant word of God that faith is not a gift from God? Surely that would end the argument right here and now and leave the rest of us struck dumb in the face of truth?

Can you stand behind your claim Van and show from your knowledge of the greek text (A knowledge that you implicitly claimed to posses) that faith as a gift from God is precluded from Eph2:8?

A New Dawn · Oct 21, 2008

Van said:
Folks, no matter how many Calvinists post the falsehood, Ephesians 2:8 indicates salvation is a gift through faith, not that faith is a gift. D Wallace, a Greek scholar agrees with this position. Only those devoid of integrity make the argument that the pronoun transliterated as houtos (neuter gender) points to the female gender of the word translated faith. According to Wallace, when the pronoun points to the whole phrase, rather an individual word, the neuter form of the pronoun is used. And the phrase, by grace you have been saved through faith, refers to a persons salvation, so the gift is salvation not faith. QED

Van, I am having trouble following your post. Where does houtos come into it? Admittedly, I don't read or speak Greek, so I have to rely on others and look in dictionaries/lexionaries. So, I'm looking at that verse in the Bible dictionary and don't see the word houtos. Perhaps it is there in another form and I'm not seeing it, but can you point it out to me and let me know what it means?

oworm · Oct 21, 2008

Van · Oct 21, 2008

Hi A New Dawn, see the phrase "and that not of yourselves." The pronoun translated as that is the Greek word transliterated as houtos.

oworm · Oct 21, 2008

Ok Van here is a clue. What is the pronoun in the text doing?
Here's another clue. What is the pronoun demonstrating? and it is actually transliterated as touto not hutos

Van · Oct 21, 2008

Folks as you can see, the Calvinists are blasting away, trying to hide that Ephesians 2:8 does not in the slightest suggest faith is a gift of God, based on Greek Grammar. So they try to change the subject and ask as many questions as possible to hide the fact that they advocate false doctrine. But D. Wallace, a Calvinist of integrity, simply says whether faith is a gift of God or not, you cannot support the idea from Ephesians 2:8, or words to that effect.

MamaZ · Oct 21, 2008

Van said:
Folks as you can see, the Calvinists are blasting away, trying to hide that Ephesians 2:8 does not in the slightest suggest faith is a gift of God, based on Greek Grammar. So they try to change the subject and ask as many questions as possible to hide the fact that they advocate false doctrine. But D. Wallace, a Calvinist of integrity, simply says whether faith is a gift of God or not, you cannot support the idea from Ephesians 2:8, or words to that effect.

Can you? I have not seen you address the questions asked to you.. Only shove them under the rug and keep asserting your own theory.. LOL

nobdysfool · Oct 21, 2008

Disparagement of Calvinists seems to be the weapon of choice. Not that it has any merit. But it does violate forum rules. Questions are such pesky things, aren't they? Especially questions which expose agendas, and expose biases that don't want to be exposed. Pity, that.

oworm · Oct 21, 2008

Van said:
Folks as you can see, the Calvinists are blasting away, trying to hide that Ephesians 2:8 does not in the slightest suggest faith is a gift of God, based on Greek Grammar. So they try to change the subject and ask as many questions as possible to hide the fact that they advocate false doctrine. But D. Wallace, a Calvinist of integrity, simply says whether faith is a gift of God or not, you cannot support the idea from Ephesians 2:8, or words to that effect.

A New Dawn · Oct 21, 2008

Van said:
Hi A New Dawn, see the phrase "and that not of yourselves." The pronoun translated as that is the Greek word transliterated as houtos.

Thanks, I see that now. What are you suggesting "that" refers back to? It has to either refer back to grace or faith since saved is a verb, not a noun. Trouble is, both grace and faith are feminine.

drstevej · Oct 21, 2008

Van said:
Now we await from any Calvinist the assertion that the the pronoun in the neuter points to the female gender noun translated faith. None will be forthcoming folks. They are bluff and bluster, pathetically trying to change the subject to my knowledge of Greek, rather than the truth the Greek grammar proclaims - which is those who claim that Ephesians 2:8 supports the idea that we are saved by the gift of faith. Such an assertion is simply false.

The TULIP is broken, and its supporting verses actually do not support the false assertions of the TULIP. It is unbiblical, a relic from the dark ages.

See Abraham Kuyper, the Work of the Holy Spirit, Ch. 39.

First, that the construction of a neuter pronoun with a feminine noun as it's antecedent is not a mistake, but excellent Greek.

He cites Kuhner's Greek Grammar,

A neutral demonstrative pronoun is frequently used to refer to a preceding masculine or feminine noun, when the meaning expressed by this word is taken in a general sense.

He cites examples from Plato, Xenophon, and Demosthenes (which I can cite specifically if you like). He continues,

But it is evident that these citations upset all the quasi-learning of this defective scholarship; and the words, "And not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,"just with the neutral pronoun, in the purest Greek, can refer to faith; hence all this fuss about the reference to gender, not only is without any foundation, but leaves a very poor impression regarding the scholarship of men who raised the objection.

Moreover, we must now show not only that the ancient rendering of Eph. 2:8 may be correct, but also that it can not be anything else.

In case you are not familiar with Abraham Kuyper.

Abraham Kuyper founded the Free University of Amsterdam and served as professor of theology. He later served a Prime Minister of Holland.

Others that have been influenced by Kuyper include Francis Schaeffer, Cornelius Van Til, Alvin Plantinga.

nobdysfool · Oct 21, 2008

Rep Daddy said:
See Abraham Kuyper, the Work of the Holy Spirit, Ch. 39.
He cites Kuhner's Greek Grammar,

He cites examples from Plato, Xenophon, and Demosthenes (which I can cite specifically if you like). He continues,
In case you are not familiar with Abraham Kuyper.

Abraham Kuyper founded the Free University of Amsterdam and served as professor of theology. He later served a Prime Minister of Holland.

Others that have been influenced by Kuyper include Francis Schaeffer, Cornelius Van Til, Alvin Plantinga.

Game, Set, Match!

beloved57 · Oct 21, 2008

Paul is applying the verse to demonstrate everyone is under sin.

Thats true..and in consequence of that, he said none undersatnds..

rom 3:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

you either believe the bible or you dont..

The Tulip is broken

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