The Truth About Abortion

redleghunter said:

You are going to find quite of few of those around here unfortunately. Why they have the ignore function I presume.

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Yep. I've had lots of practice trading posts on this subject for many years in many forums so I'm familiar with the standard practices and all the common fallacies deployed in dissent. Everyone was given and opportunity to respond and, sadly, I don't read anything worth discussing further. The op is correct. My only recommendation is to drop the use of the word, "being," because it addresses the problem more succinctly. Thanks for the affirming response, but I'll be moving on from this op to the next. Blessings

Brightmoon said:

Some women do not want to undergo the physical stress of having a baby . Most people are aware of the hormonal changes that play havoc with your emotions. A few women become psychotic because of that. All women in labor put up with horrendous pain that can last for up to 24 or more hours. Then there’s the biological fact that a fetus fights the mothers body thru the entire pregnancy. Which is why some people including some biologists characterize a fetus as a type of temporary parasite . And if you don’t believe that, ask any developmental biologist. You might not like the fact that some women don’t want to be forced to undergo these but I support their decision not to

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Yet somehow billions upon billions have been born in human history.

RaymondG said:

Why cant it remain "the truth about abortion?" Why do you desire to add manslaughter and murder and killing humans into the subject?

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The 98.5% of abortions that are performed for non medical emergencies involve the intentional and purposeful killing of an unborn human being. That is what abortion is. Why do you have a problem with speaking candidly and "owning" what abortion is in 98.5% of situations?

We know that God created humans as unique beings, possessing inherent moral worth and value on account of being created in His Image.

We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

We know that 98.5% of abortions are for convenience reasons. We know that these abortions are performed by doctors who intentionally and purposefully kill the unborn child. That is how the abortion is performed.

It is completely accurate to say that in almost all cases abortions are the intentional and purposeful killing of an innocent unborn human being. A human being that possess inherent moral worth and value.

If that disturbs you... then you should acknowledge the immorality of the action.

Brightmoon said:

I’ve got a biology degree and your statement is inaccurate. Fetuses aren’t even viable outside the mothers body until about the 6th fetal month. The sperm and eggs come from a human so of course they’re human.It’s not like you think they’re felines. Abortions at the fetal viability stage are done only if the mothers life is in danger or if the fetus is non viable. Before viability I'm saying that to continue the pregnancy is and should be only the mothers choice , not yours and certainly not some ignorant politicians

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Viability is your subjective philosophical construct? If so a two year old is not 'viable' living in our world without adult human intervention.

SkyWriting said:

But it's not murder. Birth control measures do the same thing.
They keep a fertilized egg from implanting causing it to perish.

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That is correct. Chemical birth control is abortion as well.

Robert6671 said:

I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..

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I agree.

Yes at the moment of fertilisation, everything was decided for you, whether you were a boy or girl, how tall you would eventually become, if your eyes were green, blue or brown.
Get The Facts | Just The Facts

The growth and development of a baby in the womb is probably the most awesome and breathtaking marvel of the physical creation.

By all criteria of modern molecular biology,
life is present from the moment of conception.

Job 31:15 (KJV)
Did not he that made me in the womb make
him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
and before thou camest forth out of the womb
I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet
unto the nations.

Many of the practices in the abortion
industry are an abomination.

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I agree, so would God.

Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible.

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I disagree.

Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death.

So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.

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Sorry Those verses is about hurting an unborn child,
there was already other commands about murder.

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give
life for life” (Exodus 21:22-23).

In other words, if there was no injury caused to the infant, the perpetrator had only to pay damages because of whatever inconvenience or hardship might have been imposed on the parents.

However, if his actions caused the unborn
child to die, then he was sentenced to death!

Clearly, God considers the life of an unborn
child here equal to that of an adult.
Abortion according to the bible is murder.

Now my stance, a fetus is a human being and and abortion is murder in my personal opinion.

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That is good to know, I agree.

Abortion should not be a form of brith control. If you do not want kids uses condoms and the pill or better yet keep your legs closed and pants zipped.

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I agree, any sex outside of marriage
is not condoned in the bible.

2 Timothy 3:1-4
“in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves
[very selfish and self-centered] … disobedient
to parents … Without natural affection …
incontinent [without self-control], fierce …
[lovers of pleasures] more than lovers of God”

These are the very attitudes that lead to illicit sex, unwanted babies and brutal abortions—all signs that confirm we are living in the last days.

Over 25 percent of U.S. pregnancies are aborted each year. The vast majority of these abortions are induced as a callous means of birth control!

So Christians I am sorry according to
the bible its not murder.

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I disagree.

Ecclesiastes 11:5:
“As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything” (RSV).

God says we don’t know how, but we know when a child receives the human spirit: when it’s in the womb.
-

Here is one you may not of heard about.

When Jacob moved his family to Egypt, the names
of those who went are recorded in Genesis 46.

The sons and daughters (plural) who descended from Jacob’s first wife Leah, and who made it to Egypt, numbered 33 (Genesis 46:15).

Yet there are [only 32 names given] for those
who went and [only one of them is a daughter].

Why the discrepancy?

One of Leah’s sons, Levi, had a daughter that was
not listed, who was born in Egypt (Numbers 26:59).

Levi’s wife was pregnant at the time of the journey
and the child wasn’t named yet because she hadn’t
been born. God made sure she was counted as one of the persons who made the journey.

This child became the mother of Moses.

RaymondG said:

By all mean, continue to comment on my post and speak what you feel.....Just know that I am not "ignoring" you when I dont respond.....I just do not see them.

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lol

I suppose ignoring others opinion is one sure fire way of showing them just how much we respect their opinion.

Point made.

RaymondG said:

I personally believe that you should be in or out. I still do not comprehend the idea of someone supporting abortion....but lets say these people do exist... Wouldnt one who gives exception for abortion, also be one who supports it as well?

I feel there should be no excuse for it, if you are really against it. who is to say the mother's life is more important than the unborn? What if we put in law that you cannot have it no matter the reason, or even, you must save the mothers life if only one life could be saved.

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These are good questions. What is meant as an exception for life of the mother is actually better explained as "when you have two lives at risk, which life takes precedence?" The answer is both, and here's why...Both the pregnant woman and the life she is carrying are Imago Dei, or made in the image and likeness of God. Both lives are precious in the sight of God and should be to we Christians as well as followers of Jesus Christ.

Circumstances happen when both the child in the womb and the pregnant woman are at risk of dying. In most situations if the mother dies so does the baby. Her heart stops, then the child loses oxygen. Surgeons try to save both mother and child. And in the vast majority of surgical cases one OBGYN surgeon can be extracting the child while a cardiologist surgeon is tending the mother. Surgeons always go for a win/win situation.

SkyWriting said:

The women having them are rational, whereas a strangers opinion thinking it has merit, is irrational. The health and well being of the woman, her family, if she has financial support, healthcare for herself, for the child, an education herself, and educated father, if the male is supportive in any way.....all are rational thoughts the women have. People who intend to decide the lives of others are not rational people.

Plus, abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term, and trying to make a false legal argument is not rational. Murder is not a scientific term either.

Here's something you didn't mention, for some reason: People with intellectual disabilities are sexually assaulted at a rate seven times higher than those without disabilities. That number comes from data run for NPR by the Justice Department from unpublished federal crime data.

The Sexual Assault Epidemic No One Talks About : NPR
A caregiver raped two intellectually disabled women, police...

According to the University of Michigan, it is estimated that as many as 40% of women with disabilities experience sexual assault or physical violence in their lifetimes and that more than 90% of all people with developmental disabilities will experience sexual assault.
https://now.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Disabled-Women-Sexual-Violence-4.pdf
So if you care for disabled people and 40% to 90% of them experience sexual
assault, your stand is to force the physically and mentally challenged to go full term with all pregnancies. OK. As long as you are offering birth and support services for the next 20 years for the children. Foster homes if needed and all the mental support needed. And counseling for the disabled victims not able to care for the children resulting from sexual violence done to them. And for those that do keep the children. Most likely with no partner.

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If you're not sure, don't run it over - Adam4d.com
What changes a "clump of cells" into a baby? - Adam4d.com

RaymondG said:

There are other religions with gods , in the world, that demand that their followers uphold there commands. I may not agree with or support the commands of their god.

Would you be ok with them being able to pressure you into following them?? Or would you prefer it if they chose not to judge us and follow whom they desire to follow, and allow us to do the same?

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Last I checked this is Christian Forums.

RaymondG said:

I do unto others as I would have done unto me... Do you follow this command? Are you ready to be made to feel the same as you try to make others feel, just because you hold a different opinion than they do?

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Opinions aside ask the same question of "do unto others as they would do unto you" to someone defending elective abortions. Can't think of anyone more 'the least of the little ones' than those who are in the womb. Or can't think of a better 'neighbor' for a pregnant woman as the one she is carrying. So yes it is important to look at the Great Commandment and the Second as well.

RaymondG said:

I dont get it. Are you saying that you believe God has no say in who dies of cancer? Conversations would go smoother if you made statements and spoke what you feel, instead of just asking a bunch of questions.

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I was testing your statement beyond the limits you imposed. Is it still valid?

RaymondG said:

And this act, much like self defense and vehicular manslaughter, has a word that can be used for no other act: Abortion.

So why would you have to try and group them with the other acts? Why do they not deserve their own consideration, their own spotlight, their own word?

And why am i wrong for not wanting this subject to be confused with any other?

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Because in 98% of all abortions there is a premeditated termination of human life. That is Biblically murder.

Robert6671 said:

I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar.

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Define human being?

Only when a fetus becomes sentient then it's a human being, until then its just a lot of growing cells.

redleghunter said:

Because in 98% of all abortions there is a premeditated termination of human life. That is Biblically murder.

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If you stab a corpse is it murder? How do you kill something that is not alive or even sentient. At some point it will become sentient, then its a person.

SPF said:

We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

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This is where we disagree. We know scientifically that the process that leads to the creation of a human being starts a fertilization. The human being needs to be made.

I dislike your misuse of the term existence, at fertilization no human being exists, it has yet to be made.

Robert6671 said:

You know I was mad when i made this point...mainly cause I have heard christians rant about abortion....my mom had one..she didnt want to but she had cancer and the chemo aside she could have carried to term..the child would died and she might have died and she still had several children under the age of 5. And when I hear a preacher going on about how its against gods law and how anyone who has an abortion will burn in hell. I lost my mom 2 years ago she finally lost her battle with cancer. My intention was to rant.

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Robert, I'm very saddened to hear of your loss and the difficulties surrounding it. I can see where that situation would impact your view. I don't think preachers in general are condemning your mother in particular when they rant against abortion, considering that most of the aborted babies are actually normal and in normal situations, not exceptionally difficult situations like your mother faced. I don't condemn nor excuse your mother because I'm not God and can't judge. I do know that God, Who does know, judges through Jesus Christ who understands our humanity completely, so I rest in His mercy to both your mother, your unborn sibling, and all of us on this thread. Still, for all those babies whose lives are destroyed and stolen, there needs to be a better outcome than a nation of people who don't wince at the slaughter of our most vulnerable humans and our very future.

SkyWriting said:

This is the case with all Pro-Life groups. ( I used to be Pro-Life.) They all preach how others should cherish life.......but they have no such programs in place at all nor any focus on caring for the unaborted babies. They always say "Hey! Not my problem!" It's the woman who acted so foolishly job to care for the child for 20 years. And they only focus on imaginary mothers who have the finances and ability to raise unlimited numbers of children, but they sleep around more than they should. And they skip to the abortion clinic on a whim and then skip home, back to their large homes, cars, and boat loads of money they spend on clothes and makeup instead of additional children.

So they put up a fine sermon, but it's just empty preaching. These little "Baby Jesus" kids are left to fend for themselves.

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You are making a sweeping generalisation. I very much would support programs and all pregnant women in need should be able to access free prenatal care. We are just regular people, not rich, not the law and we are not the Government. Give me the option to vote on programs and I will vote yes. Also as far as raising the child, I think they should be encouraged to adopt and this process should also be overhauled.
I have a small home, an old car and debt up to here. I give plenty of things to the local op shops, clothes my children have outgrown and other things. It would be lovely to have a large home, cars plural and boatloads of money because then I could give more. You might want to check most people's reality because maybe you are looking at your own.

Robert6671 said:

NO IT IS NOT SCRIPTURE!! The closest the bible gets to abortions is if you cause a woman to miscarry you have pay her a fine...if it was muder..the person would be put to death that scripture law...the bible does not consider the unborn child a human being..sorry

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As I've scrolled through the discussion, I didn't catch whether anyone else brought forward this thought, so I thought I'd share it with you, for what it's worth.

When God spoke to Jeremiah, He told him, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you."
When John the Baptist's birth was foretold, the angel of the Lord spoke to Zacharias to tell him that the child "would be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb."
I have no comment as to why the law was written as it was, but that God values the life of the unborn seems apparent from the verses I mentioned from Jeremiah 1 and Luke 1.

But I'm already convinced that your life matters and that each of us is formed, as Adam was, in the image of God. It doesn't appear that we have realized the gift God gave us in this. But we're still breathing, so there is hope that we may yet realize it.