The Truth About Abortion

[Robert6671]

I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar. Many of the practices in the abortion industry are an abomination.

Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible. Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death. So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.

Now my stance, a fetus is a human being and and abortion is murder in my personal oppinon.
It should stay legal in only two cases, one if a woman is a victim of rape and even then it to be in the first 2 or 3 months, take into account shock but if you wait 6 months then decide you want an abortion..thats sick because at 6 months the child can survive with medical assistancce.

Secondly for medical reason such as the mother not being able to carry to term...case in point a woman in ireland was miscarrying and they would not remove the baby cause the heart was beating, the child was dead short of jesus christ coming down from the heavens that baby was going to die. But they waited for heart to stop..she got an inffection because of it and died.

Abortion should not be a form of brith control. If you do not want kids uses condoms and the pill or better yet keep your legs closed and pants zipped.

Christians your stance on abortion is not a religious issue...its moral personal one so get over the god says it abortion bit cause he done not consider and unborn child a human being according to the bible..sorry

 

[Josheb]

I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar. Many of the practices in the abortion industry are an abomination.

Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible. Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death. So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.

Now my stance, a fetus is a human being and and abortion is murder in my personal opinion.
It should stay legal in only two cases, one if a woman is a victim of rape and even then it to be in the first 2 or 3 months, take into account shock but if you wait 6 months then decide you want an abortion..thats sick because at 6 months the child can survive with medical assistance.

Secondly for medical reason such as the mother not being able to carry to term...case in point a woman in ireland was miscarrying and they would not remove the baby cause the heart was beating, the child was dead short of jesus christ coming down from the heavens that baby was going to die. But they waited for heart to stop..she got an inffection because of it and died.

Abortion should not be a form of brith control. If you do not want kids uses condoms and the pill or better yet keep your legs closed and pants zipped.

Christians your stance on abortion is not a religious issue...its moral personal one so get over the god says it abortion bit cause he done not consider and unborn child a human being according to the bible..sorry

If it hasn't already been read then I encourage and exhort you to pick up a copies of Nancy Pearcey's "Love Thy Body," and "Total Truth." Seriously. Well worth the read. I also encourage the reading of Francis Schaeffer's trilogy and his "A Christian Manifesto." Seriously, Robert, I wish to impress upon you the importance of these writings. If you're living in the continental US I will purchase the Schaeffer triology for you and have Amazon send it to a post office near you General Delivery if you'll pledge to read it in its entirety. Message me and I'll give you my contact info.


That being said, something very subtle and insidious in the OP should be noted: the use of the word "being." Liberals have already skewed the conversation with what is now called "personhood," or "personhood theory." We buy into that paradigm unwittingly and surrender ground thereof when we include the word "being" unnecessarily. Re-read that opening sentence in the op without the word, "being" and see if it still doesn't make perfect sense and more accurately communicate both the truth and your point.

"look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me that's not a human.[/i]​

The facts of science are that we can take a cell sample of that fetus at any stage in its development and identify it as human. From conception it is human. A week later it is still human. It's not a monkey, it's not a sparrow or an eagle, it's not an alligator or a striped bass; it's human.

Abortion kills humans.

That is a fact.

That is a scientifically verifiable fact.

When the word "being" is added on, that opens up the conversation to things not yet decided by fact and not likely to be decided by fact because being a being is not yet a matter of scientifically verifiable fact nor a matter of consensus. Pearcey's "Love They Body" does a very good job of addressing this.

Use "human," and leave off the "being."

 

[RaymondG]

if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar.

Making a point and then stating that everyone who disagrees with you is "dillusional or a professional liar," is not a good way to start a friendly conversation, or to "reason together" as the bible states. So what are your intentions?

 

[miggles]

Making a point and then stating that everyone who disagrees with you is "dillusional or a professional liar," is not a good way to start a friendly conversation, or to "reason together" as the bible states. So what are your intentions?

 

[SkyWriting]

I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being.

Sadly, mom is a human being as well. Sadly men do not wear condoms like they should. Sadly, sex between a male and a female is not always consensual. Sadly, couples copulating are not always life partners. Sadly, unmarried mothers get the short end of the shaft in society.

I dated a girl from High school and was surprised to find she had a son. Not so surprising, she wanted to latch onto me quick. If she was the right one....but she wasn't. So there she is with a kid..looking (hard) for a man. I do not HEAR Pro-Life supporters is up-in-arms about the lack of support for single moms. They just shrug. "Not my problem."

 

[SkyWriting]

Abortion kills humans.
That is a fact.
That is a scientifically verifiable fact.

The gestation process kills humans then. Or we can say God does. About 50% or less of fertilized eggs will implant in the uterus wall. The rest of those humans die before birth. It's a scientific fact. And there is infant mortality. Also a scientific fact. And crib death. Mom? Dad? God? Who do we blame?

 

[Jamesone5]

I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar. Many of the practices in the abortion industry are an abomination.

Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible. Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death. So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.

Now my stance, a fetus is a human being and and abortion is murder in my personal oppinon.
It should stay legal in only two cases, one if a woman is a victim of rape and even then it to be in the first 2 or 3 months, take into account shock but if you wait 6 months then decide you want an abortion..thats sick because at 6 months the child can survive with medical assistancce.

Secondly for medical reason such as the mother not being able to carry to term...case in point a woman in ireland was miscarrying and they would not remove the baby cause the heart was beating, the child was dead short of jesus christ coming down from the heavens that baby was going to die. But they waited for heart to stop..she got an inffection because of it and died.

Abortion should not be a form of brith control. If you do not want kids uses condoms and the pill or better yet keep your legs closed and pants zipped.

Christians your stance on abortion is not a religious issue...its moral personal one so get over the god says it abortion bit cause he done not consider and unborn child a human being according to the bible..sorry

One of the huge problems with the black and white stance on abortion is that they do not realize that the father, [who did his part in producing a child] really does not come into the picture unless a baby is born. Then, of course, child support laws come into effect in all states.

By our conflicting laws we are essentially telling a woman that the responsibility for the child is all hers to bear or sadly abort. For many men that is the option to force the woman to abort, because only if she carries the baby to term he is really named the father. Many men come to the conclusion "Hey, a few hundred dollars for an abortion versus paying to support that child into adulthood is an easy decision to make" And "we can not only cover up our affair but I get off easier in the long run"

This has gone on since Falwell's moral majority in the late 70's where the child in the womb is a "thing" in a sense because the father bears no responsibility and is not recognized , but if that child is born it only then becomes a life.

Simply, the father and the mother both bear equal responsibility for the life they produced at moment of conception.

 

[Josheb]

The gestation process kills humans then. Or we can say God does. About 50% or less of fertilized eggs will implant in the uterus wall. The rest of those humans die before birth. It's a scientific fact. And there is infant mortality. Also a scientific fact. And crib death. Mom? Dad? God? Who do we blame?

Yep.

None of which has anything to do with abortion. The attempted false equivalency is noted for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly. The attempted tu quoque blaming God is is also not for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly.


This op is about abortion. It is not about other forms of fetal death and if you cannot stay topically relevant then don't expect future posts to be given further attention.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yep.

None of which has anything to do with abortion. The attempted false equivalency is noted for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly. The attempted tu quoque blaming God is is also not for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly.


This op is about abortion. It is not about other forms of fetal death and if you cannot stay topically relevant then don't expect future posts to be given further attention.

Alrighty then. Women have abortions for health reasons. They have abortions for infant health reasons. The have abortions for financial health reasons. They may not have a good education or if the father is involved, he may not be able to hold a job.

In total, once a child reaches adulthood (age 18),
parents will have spent an average of $233,610.

A pregnant woman might not have any financial support at all. A pregnant woman might be unable to care for a child. The father might not be able.

My first wife used a wheelchair like these young men do. Likely few of them will reach age 50. They are not ideal fathers for children. Some of these men will pass away in 10 years.

People have lots of reasons for abortions. You'd be surprised what men will do to women.

Lina Medina. Lina Marcela Medina de Jurado (Spanish pronunciation: [ˈlina meˈðina]; born 23 September 1933) is a Peruvian woman who became the youngest confirmed mother in history, giving birth at age five years, seven months, and 21 days.


Yelizaveta “Liza” Pantueva (Ukraine)…Gave Birth 8/19/1934…Age: Just over 6 years old
In the early 1930s, what is now recognized as the sovereign nation of Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. In a 1932-33 tragedy known as the Holodomor, an estimated 4-7 million Ukrainians would starve to death based on the deliberate policies of Soviet communist leader Joseph Stalin.

In 1933 in this terror-ravaged country, a five-year-old girl named Yelizaveta Pantueva was raped and impregnated by her 70-year-old maternal grandfather. Little Liza gave birth mere days after her sixth birthday. Although her parents didn’t want the doctors to perform a Caesarean section, the physicians proceeded to deliver a 6.6-pound baby girl via forceps and retractors, accidentally causing a placental tear during delivery and thereby killing the infant as it was being delivered. It is thought that if the child had been born naturally, she would have survived.

After the failed birth, the entire family emigrated from Kharkov to Vladivostok—including the rapist grandfather.

 

[Messerve]

Yep.

None of which has anything to do with abortion. The attempted false equivalency is noted for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly. The attempted tu quoque blaming God is is also not for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly.


This op is about abortion. It is not about other forms of fetal death and if you cannot stay topically relevant then don't expect future posts to be given further attention.

Agree. Infant mortality or spontaneous abortion is simply a part of living in a cursed world. No different than deaths due to natural disasters. My sister has a mutation which causes her to miscarry when trying to carry a child, but that mutation isn't anyone's fault. Did God allow that to punish her for some reason? Of course not. That random change in her DNA is just the result of the original curse and a world that doesn't function like it was originally created. And guess what? Even from death God can orchestrate hope. That's what's so amazing about Him.

 

[Josheb]

Alrighty then. Women have abortions for health reasons. They have abortions for infant health reasons.

Now a reductio ad absurdum is being attempted. Rational humans do not make social policy and jurisprudence based on the the extremes. Abortions due to the potential health risks of the mother or the child are less than a quarter of all US abortions and those due to actual life-threatening conditions constitution less than 2%. Abortion would not be the fiercely debated subject it is if abortions were restricted to medical necessity. Prior to Roe that was the standard. When you have an argument for the 97% of elective abortions you let me know. Otherwise, both your posts have argued fallacies of one kind or another.

The have abortions for financial health reasons. They may not have a good education or if the father is involved, he may not be able to hold a job.

Quality of life does not trump existence of life.

I spent 25 years of my life working with adults with physical and developmental disabilities. They are extraordinary people; every one of whom deserved the life s/he lived.

Let me know when you have a rational case for elective killing of fetal humans.

 

[Josheb]

Agree. Infant mortality or spontaneous abortion is simply a part of living in a cursed world. No different than deaths due to natural disasters. My sister has a mutation which causes her to miscarry when trying to carry a child, but that mutation isn't anyone's fault. Did God allow that to punish her for some reason? Of course not. That random change in her DNA is just the result of the original curse and a world that doesn't function like it was originally created. And guess what? Even from death God can orchestrate hope. That's what's so amazing about Him.

I was born with heart defects. The particular defects turned out to be minor but for many one of them can be severe and inhibit quality of life. When I was born they did not know how to treat the problem. Nowadays they operate on the infant, repairing the defect soon out of the womb and the child can grow up normally. But many doctors cannot predict the severity of the problem in utero and may offr the prgnant mother the option to abort rather than take the risk - a risk that might not turn out to be a problem for the child at all. I'm now 61, in good health (despite the still-present defect), and have lived a full and eventful life with what I hope will be another 20-25 years to go.

Your wife and I are the outliers, both statistically and normatively, and as I subsequently told the other poster, rational people don't set sound social policy, elective medical policy, nor jurisprudence based on outliers. The fact is most humans that are aborted are healthy humans that if left to the natural and normal course of human development will have lives measurably better than that found dismembered in the grave (or the medical waste bin).

 

[Qwertyui0p]

I will deal with facts here, look at a fetus at 12 weeks you can google it, tell me thats not a human being..if you can say thats not a human being there your either dillusional or a professional liar. Many of the practices in the abortion industry are an abomination.

Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible. Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death. So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.

Now my stance, a fetus is a human being and and abortion is murder in my personal oppinon.
It should stay legal in only two cases, one if a woman is a victim of rape and even then it to be in the first 2 or 3 months, take into account shock but if you wait 6 months then decide you want an abortion..thats sick because at 6 months the child can survive with medical assistancce.

Secondly for medical reason such as the mother not being able to carry to term...case in point a woman in ireland was miscarrying and they would not remove the baby cause the heart was beating, the child was dead short of jesus christ coming down from the heavens that baby was going to die. But they waited for heart to stop..she got an inffection because of it and died.

Abortion should not be a form of brith control. If you do not want kids uses condoms and the pill or better yet keep your legs closed and pants zipped.

Christians your stance on abortion is not a religious issue...its moral personal one so get over the god says it abortion bit cause he done not consider and unborn child a human being according to the bible..sorry

Jeremiah and abortion - Adam4d.com

 

[SkyWriting]

Now a reductio ad absurdum is being attempted. Rational humans do not make social policy and jurisprudence based on the the extremes. Abortions due to the potential health risks of the mother or the child are less than a quarter of all US abortions and those due to actual life-threatening conditions constitution less than 2%. Abortion would not be the fiercely debated subject it is if abortions were restricted to medical necessity. Prior to Roe that was the standard. When you have an argument for the 97% of elective abortions you let me know. Otherwise, both your posts have argued fallacies of one kind or another.

Quality of life does not trump existence of life.

I spent 25 years of my life working with adults with physical and developmental disabilities. They are extraordinary people; every one of whom deserved the life s/he lived.

Let me know when you have a rational case for elective killing of fetal humans.

The women having them are rational, whereas a strangers opinion thinking it has merit, is irrational. The health and well being of the woman, her family, if she has financial support, healthcare for herself, for the child, an education herself, and educated father, if the male is supportive in any way.....all are rational thoughts the women have. People who intend to decide the lives of others are not rational people.

Plus, abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term, and trying to make a false legal argument is not rational. Murder is not a scientific term either.

Here's something you didn't mention, for some reason: People with intellectual disabilities are sexually assaulted at a rate seven times higher than those without disabilities. That number comes from data run for NPR by the Justice Department from unpublished federal crime data.

The Sexual Assault Epidemic No One Talks About : NPR
A caregiver raped two intellectually disabled women, police...

According to the University of Michigan, it is estimated that as many as 40% of women with disabilities experience sexual assault or physical violence in their lifetimes and that more than 90% of all people with developmental disabilities will experience sexual assault.
https://now.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Disabled-Women-Sexual-Violence-4.pdf
So if you care for disabled people and 40% to 90% of them experience sexual
assault, your stand is to force the physically and mentally challenged to go full term with all pregnancies. OK. As long as you are offering birth and support services for the next 20 years for the children. Foster homes if needed and all the mental support needed. And counseling for the disabled victims not able to care for the children resulting from sexual violence done to them. And for those that do keep the children. Most likely with no partner.

My problem is with those who call for laws against abortion, but they don't plan to adopt every baby born as a result.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yep. None of which has anything to do with abortion. The attempted false equivalency is noted for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly. The attempted tu quoque blaming God is is also not for what it is: fallacious, and then ignored accordingly.
This op is about abortion. It is not about other forms of fetal death and if you cannot stay topically relevant then don't expect future posts to be given further attention.

Correct, but that won't matter, will it ? "It seems" that
Most everyone who agrees with the Bible agrees killing babies (in utero and after being born) is wrong.
But those who do not agree with the Bible often don't care, and break all the commandments, or so it seems .... (from posts over the years)

 

[SkyWriting]

Quality of life does not trump existence of life.

I'm not sure who your quoting.
Have you ever been involved in Hospice care?
Were you paying attention to how it works?

When the quality of life of a patient drops down far enough
then they qualify for Hospice Care. The person goes into
and area for evaluation. Do you know what happens during the
evaluation period? It's not a day spa setting.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm not sure who your quoting.
Have you ever been involved in Hospice care?
Were you paying attention to how it works?

Yes.
It works according to the world system,
NOT according to Scripture , NOT following Jesus, NOT healing people, but under the auspices of whatever government they operate, they often cause more harm and death than help.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes.
It works according to the world system,
NOT according to Scripture , NOT following Jesus, NOT healing people, but under the auspices of whatever government they operate, they often cause more harm and death than help.

That's correct. And it's not against the wishes of the family.
Hospice is completely voluntary.

I can't think of anyone who holds the existence of life
in higher regard than the quality of life.
I have a dog that will need to be put down soon or else
we will have to watch her suffer her last weeks. For her,
we choose quality of life.

The majority of people I know with cancer decided against chemotherapy
as a quality of life decision.

 

[Josheb]

The women having them are rational, whereas a strangers opinion thinking it has merit, is irrational.

Not only is that factually incorrect, but the ad hominem is duly noted and the ignored as fallacious. When you have a rational argument I'll consider it but until then everything you've posted is fallacious and you should look at how and why you're so fallaciously invested in a position you cannot rationally defend.

I'm not sure who your quoting.

No one was being quoted. I have had many debates with abortion advocates attempting to level one human's supposed quality of life against another human's actual existence of life.

Have you ever been involved in Hospice care? Were you paying attention to how it works? When the quality of life of a patient drops down far enough
then they qualify for Hospice Care. The person goes intoand area for evaluation. Do you know what happens during the evaluation period? It's not a day spa setting.

Abortion.

This op is about abortion. I've already asked you to stay on topic once previously and addressed the attempts at fallacious false equivalencies. Learn the rules of logic and apply them to your own arguments. You'll see the paucity of the pro-abortion position.

Abortion kills humans. People electively, selectively killing fetal humans because of fears of the future.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes.
It works according to the world system,
NOT according to Scripture , NOT following Jesus, NOT healing people, but under the auspices of whatever government they operate, they often cause more harm and death than help.

That's correct. And it's not against the wishes of the family.
Hospice is completely voluntary.

I can't think of anyone who holds the existence of life
in higher regard than the quality of life.

"That's correct" -
it doesn't matter what they think about the existence of life, or the quality of life,
it is rebellion and sin
when they oppose all Scripture, oppose Jesus, and do not heal people.