Partial Preterist Only The Trumpets in Revelation Roman Trumpets 70ad

[LittleLambofJesus]

Preterist views of the Trumpets in Revelation.
Please vote in my poll thread............
[I will also be posting this thread over on CCR board for any "full preterist" views on the trumpets being fulfilled.]

First the verses:
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The First Four Trumpets

7 And the first-One trumpets,
and became hail and fire having been mixed in blood and was cast into the land. And the third of the land was burned-up<2618> and the third of the trees was burned-up and every green grass<5528> was burned-up .

8 And the second Messenger trumpets,
and as a great Mountain to fire burning<2545> was cast into the sea and became the third of the sea blood. 9 And died the third of the creation/creatures<2938> of the in the sea, those haing a soul
and the third of the ships<4143> were decayed/destroyed<1311

10 And the third Messenger trumpets;
and a great burning Star falls out of the heaven, as a torch and falls on the third of the rivers and upon the springs<4077> of the waters<5204> 11 And the name of the Star is being said the un-drink/wormwood<894> and became the third of the waters into un-drink/wormwood.
And many of the humans died out of the waters that were made bitter<4087>.

12 And the fourth Messenger trumpets;
and was eclipsed/struck the third of the sun and the third of the moon and the third of the stars that may be being darkened the third of them and the third of the day not may be appearing<5316>, and the night likewise.

13 And I saw and I hear an eagle<105> flying in mid heaven, saying to a loud/great<3173> voice,"Woe! Woe! Woe! those dwelling on the land out of rest of voices/soundings of the trumpet of the three Messengers of the being about to trumpeting<4534>"

Revelation 9:

1 And the fifth Messenger trumpets
and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen into the land and was given to him the key of the well of the abyss. 2 and he opens up the well of the abyss and ascended smoke from out of the well as smoke of a large furnace and is darkened the sun and the air out of the smoke of the well.
13 And the sixth Messenger trumpets and I hear one voice/sound out of the horns of the Golden Altar of the one before the God.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh Messenger trumpets
and became great voices/sounds in the heaven saying "became the Kingdom of the world of the Lord of us and of the Christ of Him
and He shall be reigning into the ages of the ages.
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Similarity of the event of Jericho and the Great City in Revelation

Joshua 6
4 And seven Priests carry seven trumpets of rams' horns in front of the Ark.
Then on the seventh day, march around the City seven times, while the Priests blow the trumpets.
13 Then seven Priests bearing seven trumpets of rams' horns before the Ark of the LORD went on continually and blew with the trumpets.
And the armed men went before Them.
But the rear guard came after the Ark of the LORD, while the Priests continued blowing the trumpets.

Revelation 8:
2 And I saw the seven Messengers which stood before God,
and to Them were given seven trumpets.
6 And the seven Messengers having the seven trumpets make ready Themselves that They should be trumpeting<4537>.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

Some interesting info on the 1st century trumpets........

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets
The Roman Assault on Israel Began around the Feast of Trumpets Hence the Seven Trumpets of Revelation—Thus Began the Jewish War.

In A.D. 66 while Judea was aflame in bloodshed, riot and revolt, Rome responded by sending the 12th legion in addition to thousands of auxiliaries from neighboring kingdoms. These troops, as if orchestrated by God, arrived in Jerusalem in the Jewish month of Tishri, a month that begins with the Feast of Trumpets.
Called the Day of Judgment, it is on this day that trumpets sound the somber days of atonement and final judgment (Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1).
Thus began the Jewish War.3
The A.D. 70 Doctrine View, Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of Revelation 8: In Every Event that Fulfills the Seven Trumpets of Revelation an Audible Trumpet Sound Was Heard.
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Jewish Roots: The Sound Of The Trumpet
For if the Trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?
(1 Corinthians 14:8).

The Apostle Paul used the Roman military trumpet as a metaphor for spiritual battle. First-century historian Josephus wrote that the Roman army did nothing, except by trumpet signals. He listed three specific trumpet sounds, all of which can be devotionally applied.

The first trumpet was a signal to prepare to depart. "Now when they are to go out of their camp, the trumpet gives a sound."(1) The Bible believer should be ready to depart swiftly for any field of conflict as ordered, always ready to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

The second trumpet was a signal to form up: "Then do the trumpets sound again, to order them to get ready for the march."(1) At this stage, a believer should have on the whole armor of God.
The Lord wants skilled warriors, lined up with others, who will do battle against the wiles of the Devil (Eph. 6:11).

The third trumpet sound was the order to march: "Then do the trumpets give a sound a third time, that they are to go out."(1) Some have suggested that this is the equivalent of "the last trumpet" that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 concerning the Rapture of the church: Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (1 Cor. 15:51-52).

This trumpet may also point to the personal resolve of a believer to march out to serve Christ, to stand against all challenges to God's kingdom, and to be willing to endure hardships like a good soldier (2 Tim. 2:3).
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Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive

You can hear the Roman trumpets blowing in this vid

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I found a thread that already has the full preterist view on the trumpets.......

Controversial Christian Theology

Full Preterism On The Last Trumpet

 

[The Righterzpen]

Interesting information.

I know a fair amount about the Roman army; but the differing sounds of trumpet calls I'd never given much thought to; as they related to metaphoric type language in Revelation.

The Roman army was quite well organized and is actually the model for all standing armies since.

As for your survey; it seems quite obvious to me that the "last trump" is Judgement Day; seeing how it is the immediate predecessor to the resurrection from the dead.

As far as the rest of the trumpets go? I can't say I've come to a distinct conclusion / when did they happen? Some of them certainly had correlation with things connected to Jesus's death, the casting out of Satan, the pouring forth of "strong delusion" and "the mystery of iniquity that already works".

Yet how all that fits together; I've yet to come to a definitive conclusion that "I believe this" about it.

It's a subject that's come up in the context of studying other things; but I've never sat down and went through the Greek in Revelation of the verses about the trumpets themselves. (Maybe that will be my next Bible project?)

Much of Revelation I've come to the conclusion, is metaphoric explanation to us of things going on / having had happened, in the spiritual realm. Some of it obviously has literal application to events on earth. Yet a lot of the pieces; I've yet to be able to put together in a way that makes some sort of comprehensive sense to me.

So, I'm probably not going to be much help on this subject.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting information.

I know a fair amount about the Roman army; but the differing sounds of trumpet calls I'd never given much thought to; as they related to metaphoric type language in Revelation.

The Roman army was quite well organized and is actually the model for all standing armies since.

As for your survey; it seems quite obvious to me that the "last trump" is Judgement Day; seeing how it is the immediate predecessor to the resurrection from the dead.

As far as the rest of the trumpets go? I can't say I've come to a distinct conclusion / when did they happen? Some of them certainly had correlation with things connected to Jesus's death, the casting out of Satan, the pouring forth of "strong delusion" and "the mystery of iniquity that already works".

Yet how all that fits together; I've yet to come to a definitive conclusion that "I believe this" about it.
It's a subject that's come up in the context of studying other things; but I've never sat down and went through the Greek in Revelation of the verses about the trumpets themselves. (Maybe that will be my next Bible project?)

Much of Revelation I've come to the conclusion, is metaphoric explanation to us of things going on / having had happened, in the spiritual realm. Some of it obviously has literal application to events on earth. Yet a lot of the pieces; I've yet to be able to put together in a way that makes some sort of comprehensive sense to me.

So, I'm probably not going to be much help on this subject.

Hello R. Thanks for that post.
I am really just now getting into the trumpets mentioned in the OT and NT.
Let's look at where the words "trumpet/s" are used in the Bible:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

7782 showphar or shophar {sho-far'}; from 8231
in the original sense of incising; a cornet (as giving a clear sound) or curved horn:--cornet, trumpet.
H7782 matches the Hebrew שׁוֹפָר (showphar),
which occurs 72 times in 63 verses

1st and last verses used in OT

Exo 19:16
Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain;
and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.

Zec 9:14
Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning.
The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south.
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New Testament

4536. salpigx sal'-pinx perhaps from 4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet:--trump(-et).
G4536 σάλπιγξ (salpigx), occurs 11 times in 11 verses

Used only in Matt of the Gospels, the epistles of Paul, Hebrews and Revelation...

Mat 24:31
and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

1Co 14:8
for if also an uncertain sound a trumpet may give, who shall prepare himself for battle?
1Co 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
1Th 4:16
because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

Heb 12:19
and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a word might not be added to them,

Rev 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying,
Rev 4:1
After these things I saw, and behold! a door opened in the heaven,
and the first voice that I heard is as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, 'Come up hither, and I will shew thee what it behoveth to come to pass after these things;'
Rev 8:2
and I saw the seven messengers who before God have stood, and there were given to them seven trumpets,
Rev 8:6
And the seven messengers who are having the seven trumpets did prepare themselves that they may be trumpeting<4537>;
Rev 8:13
And I saw, and I heard one messenger, flying in the mid-heaven, saying with a great voice, 'Woe, woe, woe, to those dwelling upon the land
from the rest of the sounding of the trumpet of the three messengers who are about to to be trumpeting.'
Rev 9:14
saying to the sixth messenger who had the trumpet, 'Loose the four messengers who are bound at the great river Euphrates;'
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The seals, trumpets, bowls of Revelation, are they consecutive are concurrent?'

Hi Maranatha. I don't mean to open a can of worms with you, but the Bible itself proofs that the 7 trumpets, have already sounded. Lest look at scripture. But in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the mystery of God would be finished, as He deciared to His servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7)

Notice here that it says when the mystery of God would be finished so would be the sounding of the seventh trumpet. Well according to the inspired Apostle Paul the mystery that had been hidding from the ages and
generations, was now is made manifest to his saints(Clossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:3; 6:19) Now if Paul says the mystery was now revealed to him, the 7 trumpet according to Revelation has already sounded over 2.000 years ago.

I know you will not agree however that is what the Bible says.

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Preterist Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

The Old Covenant Prediction

It seems to have escaped the notice of many Bible students that the Old Covenant contains the background prophecy of the sounding of the trumpet of God. In Isaiah 27:12-13 Jehovah promised: "And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord will thresh, from the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; and you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel. So it shall be in that day that the great trumpet will be blown. They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, and they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount of Jerusalem."

Please note, Isaiah says the trumpet of God would sound and the outcasts of Israel would be gathered. There are some very important facts to be noted here.

First, Isaiah is simply reiterating his earlier promise of the regathering of the scattered people of God, i.e., the remnant. This is a very prominent concept of the Messianic predictions.

In Isaiah 11 the priestly prophet spoke of the day when the ensign would be raised, Gentiles would be saved, and "It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people who are left from Assyria, and Egypt, from Pathros...He will set up a banner for the nations and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth" v.12. The dispersed would come for "There will be a highway for the remnant of his people who will be left from Assyria, As it was for Israel in the day that he came up from the land of Egypt" v.16.

Second, it is vital to understand that in the imagery of the prophets, those who were scattered abroad were DEAD; not physically to be sure, but DEAD BECAUSE OF SEPARATION FROM GOD'S PRESENCE IN THE HOLY LAND! Israel's sin had SEPARATED between her and God, Isaiah 59:1-2. When he drove them into the foreign countries they were dead because "life" for Israel existed only in fellowship with God in their land, city, and temple. DEATH IS SEPARATION!

This is found in a brief study of the wider context of Isaiah 27. In chapter 24 God views creation as destroyed because Israel had "transgressed the laws..., broken the everlasting covenant" v.8. In spite of the punishment, there is promise of deliverance; a great banquet will be prepared for the faithful and he will destroy the veil of destruction; "he will swallow up death forever, And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces; the rebuke of His people he will take away from all the earth" 25:6-8.

Chapter 26 offered peace to the repentant. It is said His enemies are dead and will not arise, yet of God's "dead" it is said, "Your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust..." v.19. These "dead" are those taken into captivity by the invaders. This is confirmed in chapter 27:7 when he asks, "Has he struck Israel as he struck those who struck him? Or has he (Israel, DKP) been slain according to the slaughter of those who were slain by him?" Israel, carried into captivity, was seen as dead.

This same motif is depicted in Ezekiel's famous vision of the valley of dry bones in chapter 37. The vision is set in the context of Israel's Babylonian captivity. God interprets the vision: "these bones are the whole house of Israel...They indeed say, `Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off.'" But God promised, "Behold, O my people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you to the land of Israel." Once again Israel's return from captivity is depicted as the resurrection from the dead because they are being returned to God's fellowship in His land.

This then is the concept of Isaiah 27:13--the Great Trumpet of God was to sound and gather God's elect, in the "grave" of captivity because of the sin of the nation, back to life and fellowship with Jehovah. In the New Testament the sounding of the trumpet of God is also for the raising of the dead from captivity to be gathered to life with God.

Matthew 24:29-31
Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in classic Jewish apocalyptic language. In vss 30-31 he said, "they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Jesus is speaking of judgment, the trump of God, and the gathering of God's elect from the four corners of the world. Would any Jew even halfway conversant with the Old Covenant fail to think of Isaiah's prediction of the sounding of the great trumpet when he heard Jesus' words? We think not.

When did Jesus say that great trumpet was to blow and gather the elect? Read verse 34: "Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all things take place."

Summary

What we have seen is the Old Covenant background for the promise of the sounding of the Great Trumpet of God. That trumpet was to be blown for the gathering of God's elect from the "death" of separation from God's presence and fellowship. We have seen in the New Testament there are only four passages which speak of the sounding of the Trump of God. Each of these passages speaks of the same thing, the gathering of the elect at the resurrection; and each has a very clear time statement with it.

Jesus said the trumpet would blow and the elect would be gathered in his generation, Matthew 24:30-31. It is admitted by almost all amillennialists that this was fulfilled in that generation and the language was apocalyptic and spiritual.

Paul, I Corinthians 15:51-52, said the resurrection would be at the sounding of "The last trumpet"; and not all of them would die before it occurred. In Thessalonians he affirmed the coming of the Lord, and gathering of the saints at the sounding of the trumpet; and he said, "we who are alive and remain until the coming." We have posed the question of where the Corinthians and Thessalonicans had heard of "THE trumpet" and concluded their knowledge was based on Jesus' teachings and the Old Covenant. If this is true, and we are convinced it is, since it is admitted Jesus' prediction in Matthew 24 was fulfilled how can it be denied that I Corinthians and Thessalonians were fulfilled at the same time?

In Revelation John saw the sounding of the seven trumpets, the last being when the dead would be raised and receive their reward. In chapter 22:12 Jesus said he was coming "quickly to render to every man according to what he has done." Now if it be the case that the sounding of "the last trumpet" was at hand when John wrote how can one postulate it has not yet sounded? Or, how can one admit, as some do, that Revelation is indeed fulfilled, yet there is to be a still future sounding of "the last trumpet," per their view of I Corinthians 15? Were there to be two "last trumpets"?

We have examined the arguments offered to offset the time statements of the resurrection and trumpet and found them to be inadequate.

This writer finds it impossible to escape the conclusion that either the Great Trumpet of the Lord sounded in that first-century generation or Jesus' promise failed and man still has no escape from sin, from separation from God. The Good News is, the Trumpet sounded and those in Hades were taken from their separated position and ushered before the presence of God in heaven. In addition, the final barriers between God and man were removed as God took away the last vestiges of "the law" which held the "power of sin." Man now can be fully justified and live in full assurance that "he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" John 5:24. Thank God for the sounding of the Great Trumpet!
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