The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

[drich0150]

Paul is working through a process of explaining what our reaction should be to the sin we find still present in us. But that is not us at all, but the sin nature still at work. I think you stopped too soon:
"12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Sure sounds like a choice to me. It's impossible to read through scripture and deny that we make free choices. The choices are not: Either sin or me powering through and being victorious. The choice is living by the flesh or living by the spirit. Yes, we will still sin at times and it will be because we are not listening when the Spirit speaks, not because we are obligated to sin.

there is a choice but you do not understand it. the choice is whether or not to sin.. but whether or not to want, enjoy or accept the sin. Nice that you cut and pasted two verses that support what you think, but if you simply kept reading your thoughts would have been corrected:
12 Now the law is holy, and the command is holy and right and good.13 Does this mean that something that is good brought death to me? No, it was sin that used the good command to bring me death. This shows how terrible sin really is. It can use a good command to produce a result that shows sin at its very worst.

The War Inside Us
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

If Paul could keep from sinning.. Paul Himself is describing a conflict he is having with himself in the above passage then why doesn't he simply stop sinning? whu is their conflict???
His words:
19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

You can not ignore this or try and assign a different meaning than what is on page. if you do you wander off from biblical christianity just like the prodigal son does. except your pig's slop is legalism something no one can sustain unless you lie to yourself and your peers.

Paul is not lying when he says the good he want's to do he can not do, but the evil that he hates... that is what he does! His soul screams out against this! that is the choice we have. To accept the sin we do to make excuses for it to do it in secret to hide it or to hate it, to love God's law to hate sin even if we are bound to it... That changes a lot of perceptions if you can wrap your head around what paul is saying here!

Now if we are free from the idea of free will which leads to bondage/legalism under the law... If we can accept our sin status then ironically it frees us from shame and guilt of sin from which we have no control over. Again we can not justify or love our sin, no we must hate it with hell fire, but the idea of being a slave to sin separates us from our bondage. which is liberating.

It is ironic that the doctrine of free will is damaging to our spirit while accepting slavery is so liberating.

 

[Bobber]

Not according to Christ. According to Christ we are slave bound to sin. Slave with the option to be redeemed. a single choice does not make our will free our will is always subject to that of our master either Sin or God. Where do you see freedom if we can not stop sinning or if we are limited in what we do by God's will?

Well if you're believing as you put it man does have a choice to be saved I'm OK with that. About our capacity about other things...free will or not? I don't know. All I know is for one to walk in absolute freedom they would need to life, love and nature of God. Natural men have overcome a great many things however, social vices let's call them smoking, drinking, or a variety of other things. Other claim they absolutely can't.

At times some delude themselves and actually believe they don't have capacity of such things as I've said to others....Can you stop smoking? "No!" I ask this then, If you were offered and it was a fact that if you stopped smoking for three years and you were given 3 million dollars...would you be able to quit smoking then? "YES! Absolutely!" Well you have the capacity but not the motivation. I think being In Christ however AND one is in relationship with him with the presence of God the enticing power of temptation can be gone. Jesus said it's his word which sanctifies us. John 17:17 The freedom of ALL freedoms is to be born again and not be bound by spiritual death. Nobody can choose to create eternal life in their spirits but they can choose to allow God to make them a new creature In Christ Jesus with the life of God within.

 

[Loren T.]

there is a choice but you do not understand it. the choice is whether or not to sin.. but whether or not to want, enjoy or accept the sin. Nice that you cut and pasted two verses that support what you think, but if you simply kept reading your thoughts would have been corrected:
12 Now the law is holy, and the command is holy and right and good.13 Does this mean that something that is good brought death to me? No, it was sin that used the good command to bring me death. This shows how terrible sin really is. It can use a good command to produce a result that shows sin at its very worst.

The War Inside Us
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

If Paul could keep from sinning.. Paul Himself is describing a conflict he is having with himself in the above passage then why doesn't he simply stop sinning? whu is their conflict???
His words:
19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

You can not ignore this or try and assign a different meaning than what is on page. if you do you wander off from biblical christianity just like the prodigal son does. except your pig's slop is legalism something no one can sustain unless you lie to yourself and your peers.

Paul is not lying when he says the good he want's to do he can not do, but the evil that he hates... that is what he does! His soul screams out against this! that is the choice we have. To accept the sin we do to make excuses for it to do it in secret to hide it or to hate it, to love God's law to hate sin even if we are bound to it... That changes a lot of perceptions if you can wrap your head around what paul is saying here!

Now if we are free from the idea of free will which leads to bondage/legalism under the law... If we can accept our sin status then ironically it frees us from shame and guilt of sin from which we have no control over. Again we can not justify or love our sin, no we must hate it with hell fire, but the idea of being a slave to sin separates us from our bondage. which is liberating.

It is ironic that the doctrine of free will is damaging to our spirit while accepting slavery is so liberating.

My quote was from chapter 8, I had already finished reading 7. Keep going, you haven't gotten to the good news yet!

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

We are no longer slaves, we are sons of God.

 

[drich0150]

Well if you're believing as you put it man does have a choice to be saved I'm OK with that. About our capacity about other things...free will or not? I don't know. All I know is for one to walk in absolute freedom they would need to life, love and nature of God. Natural men have overcome a great many things however, social vices let's call them smoking, drinking, or a variety of other things. Other claim they absolutely can't.

At times some delude themselves and actually believe they don't have capacity of such things as I've said to others....Can you stop smoking? "No!" I ask this then, If you were offered and it was a fact that if you stopped smoking for three years and you were given 3 million dollars...would you be able to quit smoking then? "YES! Absolutely!" Well you have the capacity but not the motivation. I think being In Christ however AND one is in relationship with him with the presence of God the enticing power of temptation can be gone. Jesus said it's his word which sanctifies us. John 17:17 The freedom of ALL freedoms is to be born again and not be bound by spiritual death. Nobody can choose to create eternal life in their spirits but they can choose to allow God to make them a new creature In Christ Jesus with the life of God within.

So Paul, the man who wrote 2/3s of the NT was he not a "new creature in Christ?" Then why when he explain our relationship with sin is he of all people not able to stop sinning.. Mind you sin is not a social vice. Sin is sin and according to what paul wrote in romans 6 and 7 and part of 8 (chapters not verses) we are slaves to sin till we die.

The only new create can do is hate the sin his spirit/body makes him do, because it is not him who sins but the sinful creature who he is bonded to that will die at the end of this life.

Note did you notice how you have to source several scraps of verses meaning several one line verses take them from their original texts/meanings and apply them together to bring me your message? Now what did I do? I use almost a whole chapter to set up my position and expanded it to the chapter before and the chapter after in a book that speaks to this very subject in specific detail. So then you know it is not my words my authority speaking here if you can take a whole chapter and get what it is I am pointing out.

 

[drich0150]

My quote was from chapter 8, I had already finished reading 7. Keep going, you haven't gotten to the good news yet!

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

We are no longer slaves, we are sons of God.

If this is chapter 8 then go back and re-read the first 1/2 of the chapter matter of fat just read the two verses before the one you quoted!!!

Paul divides us our himself into out spirit lead half and out sinful self If we hate sin we can not help but do then we are lead by the spirit. however if we love and make excuses for our sin then that is our sinful 1/2 or sinful self. what paul is describing in 11 and 12 is the need to seek out and side with the spiritual 1/2 and hate the sin our sinful self indulges in. where is this found? in the previous chapter!
21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Paul askes who will save me from my sinful self??? he answers with:
So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus is not judged guilty. 2 That is because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made youfree. It made you free from the law that brings sin and death. 3 The law was without power because it was made weak by our sinful selves. But God did what the law could not do: He sent his own Son to earth with the same human life that everyone else uses for sin. God sent him to be an offering to pay for sin. So God used a human life to destroy sin.4 He did this so that we could be right just as the law said we must be. Now we don’t live following our sinful selves. We live following the Spirit.

5 People who live following their sinful selves think only about what they want. But those who live following the Spirit are thinking about what the Spirit wants them to do. 6 If your thinking is controlled by your sinful self, there is spiritual death. But if your thinking is controlled by the Spirit, there is life and peace. 7 Why is this true? Because anyone whose thinking is controlled by their sinful self is against God. They refuse to obey God’s law. And really they are not able to obey it. 8 Those who are ruled by their sinful selves cannot please God.

9 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. 10 Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God. 11 God raised Jesus from death. And if God’s Spirit lives in you, he will also give life to your bodies that die. Yes, God is the one who raised Christ from death, and he will raise you to life through his Spirit living in you.

At no point does paul break from the sinful self being separated from him. he has taken the body and divided it body spirit and soul the body/spirit are the sinful self while the soul belongs to the spirit. he he says who will save me from his sinful self the answer is ultimately Jesus. His sinful self or sinful 1/2 is not saved His soul is saved from his sinful half. that can only happen if the sould seeks the spirit as outlined in Chapter 8 ALL the While the sinful half keeps on sinning as per chapter 6 and 7

 

[Loren T.]

Note did you notice how you have to source several scraps of verses meaning several one line verses take them from their original texts/meanings and apply them together to bring me your message? Now what did I do? I use almost a whole chapter to set up my position and expanded it to the chapter before and the chapter after in a book that speaks to this very subject in specific detail. So then you know it is not my words my authority speaking here if you can take a whole chapter and get what it is I am pointing out.

I assume you're talking to me here, no Bobber. Like I said, Paul is going through a thought process, to get to a point. And chapters are irrelevant, since they were added later. Paul starts out with idea that he's just a filthy sinner, and can't do anything about it, then progresses to understanding, that he can in fact live in the spirit, instead of in the flesh. Then he processes still farther, into understanding that that he is not a Slave at all but a son of God. And from there he declares that we are conquerors through Christ and nothing can separate us from God. You seem to be stuck back on the filthy sinner part. Sinner is not the identity of a son of God. Slave is not the identity of a conqueror through Christ.

 

[Bobber]

So Paul, the man who wrote 2/3s of the NT was he not a "new creature in Christ?" Then why when he explain our relationship with sin is he of all people not able to stop sinning.. Mind you sin is not a social vice. Sin is sin and according to what paul wrote in romans 6 and 7 and part of 8 (chapters not verses) we are slaves to sin till we die.

Of course Paul was a new creature in Christ. Paul wasn't saying he couldn't stop sinning. No offense but it's kind of ironic that you're the one claiming how you look at chapters and not verses and don't see chapter 7 flows right into 8. Or maybe I could say in response to your claim that I look at mere verses that you just look at chapters where I'm seeking to go with all the them???...but such is off point.

Paul did say in Rom 7 (last few verses) that he couldn't do what he wanted to do....sin was living in him.....a desire to do good but could not carry it out.....but he's only referring to his state if he looked upon himself in the flesh....Romans 8 though brings the victory and freedom understanding by saying for those who are In Christ Jesus they will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. They have the power not to have to do so...they probably will but in a legal spiritual sense of their rights in Christ they do have the power to overcome.

The only new create can do is hate the sin his spirit/body makes him do, because it is not him who sins but the sinful creature who he is bonded to that will die at the end of this life.

No I can't really accept that. I'm not saying there isn't this challenge we have with sin the rest of our lives but with the power of God we can walk in victory. Paul said the following,

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Cor 9:27

Clearly he says he can walk in victory and not just hate sin but also overcome it.

 

[drich0150]

I assume you're talking to me here, no Bobber. Like I said, Paul is going through a thought process, to get to a point. And chapters are irrelevant, since they were added later. Paul starts out with idea that he's just a filthy sinner, and can't do anything about it, then progresses to understanding, that he can in fact live in the spirit, instead of in the flesh.

I agree to this point but where I think we differ is how Paul lives in the spirit can you show me how paul lives in the spirit and provide the verses that make you think this.

Then he processes still farther, into understanding that that he is not a Slave at all but a son of God.

Again i do not disagree, but there is a turning point that allows this transition I think you are missing. show me where or when he becomes a son of God. mind you I AM NOT asking for the verse where those words are use I am asking for the event that makes him a son and not a slave. What changed inorder to make the change?

And from there he declares that we are conquerors through Christ and nothing can separate us from God. You seem to be stuck back on the filthy sinner part. Sinner is not the identity of a son of God. Slave is not the identity of a conqueror through Christ.

after that change yes... but it does not seem you have read enough of the chapter if you think we have what we need to conquer sin completely. right now paul says we have hope to become free, that the spirit will help us with our weakness.. (just keep reading)

 

[drich0150]

Of course Paul was a new creature in Christ. Paul wasn't saying he couldn't stop sinning..

before we address anything else you've said.. reconcile this passage with what you just claimed:
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

Please go line by line and explain each primise please.

If you are going to say at any point paul was describing a struggle with sin that he would eventually over come then explain the last 1/2 of the chapter where his only explainion or only way he over came sin is to divde himself into two parts. The sin ful self and the servant of the Spirit. Meaning the sinful self keeps right on sinning while the slave of the spirit hates sin and loves God. that the slave of the sirit does not sin while the sinful self keeps on sinning.
1 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

but it does not seem you have read enough of the chapter if you think we have what we need to conquer sin completely.

? What would the problem be ?

Whenever someone signs up with the military , once they sign on the dotted line and take the oath, they are the property of the military. The military provides them everything needed to do what they are told to do. The military tells them what to do.

If they go and start acting on behalf of the enemy or any other country, they suffer the consequences.

Yahweh is Perfect in Knowledge and Wisdom and Judgment. He knows if someone strays. He corrects them if they are His child, as written.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So also, TODAY, IF you hear His Voice, do not harden your heart as in the wilderness when they rebelled, and perished.
CHOOSE TODAY who to serve.

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

 

[drich0150]

? What would the problem be ?

Whenever someone signs up with the military , once they sign on the dotted line and take the oath, they are the property of the military. The military provides them everything needed to do what they are told to do.

which is true here but the tool offered according to paul in romans 8 is grace NOT the ability to live sin free. if we could live sin free then we would not need Christ.

The military tells them what to do. If they go and start acting on behalf of the enemy or any other country, they suffer the consequences.

even so even the military doesn't try to regulate all sin. No one not even God does. Otherwise there would be no cross. Sin is accounted for through Grace not by self control. Paul says it plain as day in 7 and in 8 of romans.

Yahweh is Perfect in Knowledge and Wisdom and Judgment. He knows if someone strays. He corrects them if they are His child, as written.

Again you all seem not to be able to make the separation paul makes in 7 and 8 between the spirit filled self and the sinful self. Everything you say can be applied to the spirit filled self all the while the sinful self keeps on sinning. You can be a change person and hate sin and not sin from a spirit filled perspective, while the slave to sin the sinful self keeps on sinning.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.... I am sure Yahweh and Yahshua (Jesus) does a very very very good job. (perfect!)

even so even the military doesn't try to regulate all sin. No one not even God does.

 

[drich0150]

So also, TODAY, IF you hear His Voice, do not harden your heart as in the wilderness when they rebelled, and perished.
CHOOSE TODAY who to serve.

Again that which we control according to paul in romans 7 chooses 1000% of it's ability to serve God. However our other 1/2. that which is a slave to sin, that which we can not control, that which has you lie to yourself and pretend you are something you are not/nor ever could be... that sinful being while you choose to serve God... is a bondservant to sin. One must hate this part of themselves not pretend it is not there.

Look you can pull verses sentences from all over the bible but it will never reconcile these 2 chapters of content. these three chapters can be se to encapsulate the whole of scripture under the duality of our sin and soulful selves. however every verse you try and use to break this teaching will meet a swift end as they would create a paradox in God's word if you insist on a reading that requires us not to sin ever again. You have to reconcile all passages in the bible with themselves inorder to have an accurate picture of God. other wise you fracture the bible with church doctrine and rather than worship God you worship your religion's method of worship.

Seek to unify the word do not allow passage like this stand out against what you believe. The only way these three chapters work with the rest of the bible is if like paul says separate the nature of man into two beings. one you have control of and one slave to sin. So long as what you control loves God hates sin as paul out lines and lements it in chapter 7 (to the point of death) then you are doing what paul calls being ruled by the Spirit.

 

[drich0150]

.... I am sure Yahweh and Yahshua (Jesus) does a very very very good job. (perfect!)

dont know what you mean when teaching try to remove all emotion

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.... I am sure Yahweh and Yahshua (Jesus) does a very very very good job. (perfect!)

dont know what you mean when teaching try to remove all emotion

Regardless of any and all teaching,

Yahweh and Yahshua (Jesus) does a perfect job - lacking nothing, nothing broken, nothing missing, everything absolutely perfect for Yahweh's Plan and Purpose in Salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

[drich0150]

Regardless of any and all teaching,

Yahweh and Yahshua (Jesus) does a perfect job - lacking nothing, nothing broken, nothing missing, everything absolutely perfect for Yahweh's Plan and Purpose in Salvation in Jesus Christ.

Indeed. but if we could be like Jesus, He would not have had to die on the cross right?

Therefore EVEN JESUS does not expect this level of perfection from us. Meaning If we were not slaves to sin predisposed to sin, then Christ wold not have had to buy us with his perfect blood sacrifice...

My comment was meant to show, that even if there is a perfect standard, no one expects us to live that standard. no one requires this of us. I still do not understand what Jesus' ability to live this standard has to do with us.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As it is only the Father who may grant understanding, we therefore pray of the Father in Jesus' Name that He will grant you the understanding of Scripture, as He Pleases (if He wants to) .

 

[sdowney717]

which is true here but the tool offered according to paul in romans 8 is grace NOT the ability to live sin free. if we could live sin free then we would not need Christ.
even so even the military doesn't try to regulate all sin. No one not even God does. Otherwise there would be no cross. Sin is accounted for through Grace not by self control. Paul says it plain as day in 7 and in 8 of romans.


Again you all seem not to be able to make the separation paul makes in 7 and 8 between the spirit filled self and the sinful self. Everything you say can be applied to the spirit filled self all the while the sinful self keeps on sinning. You can be a change person and hate sin and not sin from a spirit filled perspective, while the slave to sin the sinful self keeps on sinning.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Yes, the old man of the flesh is at war with the new man of the spirit, Paul tells us to put off the old man of the flesh. The body is dead because of SIN, but the spirit is life or alive because of righteousness.

Until we pass on, we are still living with the body of flesh, and the flesh sins, but our new creation in Christ spirit is alive to God and does not sin and indeed it can not sin because it is born of God. The proof is eternal life in the spirit, but the body DIES and rots in the ground back to dust. And will remain dead and dust until the resurrection, until the redemption of the body when we get new glorified bodies.

Paul says it right there in Romans 7, v22 proves Paul was saved at this point.
and no natural man would delight himself in God's law. or look to Christ as delivering him from death. those are all sign of being born again/

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[drich0150]

Yes, the old man of the flesh is at war with the new man of the spirit, Paul tells us to put off the old man of the flesh. The body is dead because of SIN, but the spirit is life or alive because of righteousness.

Until we pass on, we are still living with the body of flesh, and the flesh sins, but our new creation in Christ spirit is alive to God and does not sin and indeed it can not sin because it is born of God. The proof is eternal life in the spirit, but the body DIES and rots in the ground back to dust. And will remain dead and dust until the resurrection, until the redemption of the body when we get new glorified bodies.

Paul says it right there in Romans 7, v22 proves Paul was saved at this point.
and no natural man would delight himself in God's law. or look to Christ as delivering him from death. those are all sign of being born again/

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Your on the right track but you have not mention paul's solution. You quoted it but I don't think you have acknowledge it. In that how does Paul subscribe in putting the old man in the flesh the one we are bound to till we die, how do we put him off and yet live sin free.. I embolden it for you..

With my mind I serve the law of God meaning with what he can control he serves God, even if his body is doing the evil he does not want to do. by loving God and loving the law and hating evil you are full filling what paul tells us to do here and in Chapter 8. where most of you simply miss the boat is you assume the body and mind must work together here in that the mind hates sin and the body stops sinning.. that is the lie of free will. because clearly in that last line Paul re-enforces the idea that while he controls his mind and makes his mind serve God he still does not have complete control over his body. As it is still a slave to sin and will be till he dies! That it why it is so important to cast out the idea of free will and embrace the idea we are slaves to sin. Christ says it He said his Father taught that idea to Him and Paul says it here in putting our relationship with sin in perspective as a believer.

If you believe in free will you have to rewrite what paul says here to make your doctrine work which changes the very core of biblical christianity from a place of freedom to binding yourselves with the chains Jesus died to set you free from.

Again Paul's words/word of God, not mine. you can not forsake 1/2 of what is said to maintain doctrine. Rather, doctrine must be changed to encapsulate all that is said!