The Trouble With Chick Tracts...

[WannaWitness]

Also, I want to apologize to everyone here (and especially to yeshuaslavejeff) for getting snippy. I just got carried away and I truly didn't want to come off that way. As a Christian, I wish to conduct myself in a Christlike manner, and in this instance, I failed to do so.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

au contrare - when I saw those tracts, exposing the devil, it was wonderful and simple and put ol' slew in his place.... let people know that they can laugh at him as God laughs at him,
because his power is all and only deception and lies .... like snaggletooth? the teeth have been taken out of his bite ..... his bark can simply be ignore, and he FLEES when we resist him....

Even the people who think they are so powerful and think they cannot be beat by little children ,
God laughs at their plans (the plans of the wicked) , and dismisses them quickly.

God is Faithful and True,
Rejoice and Be Glad,
as Jesus Says, we have much painful suffering,
but "I (Jesus) have overcome the world"

The point I am trying to make is that he focused a little too much on the enemy. I also think that while the fear of the Lord is important to teach, it should also be in proportion to God's love. Granted, I realize Jude talks about believers who pull others out of the fire with fear, but love should not be absent in that message - IMO.

When I say "love" I am talking about focusing also on the love of God in the Son (Jesus) going through such pain and suffering on our behalf and then dying in our place. While he may mention this in one particular tract or so, this is not the focus. When I say "love", it should also be in setting us free from a life of sin and not being a slave to sin (Whereby it is a hollow pleasure that does not satisfy). When I say "love", I am talking about how God desires to gives us many good things in Heaven. God seeks to love and protect us. God seeks a loving relationship with us.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The point I am trying to make is that he focused a little too much on the enemy. I also think that while the fear of the Lord is important to teach, it should also be in proportion to God's love. Granted, I realize Jude talks about believers who pull others out of the fire with fear, but love should not be absent in that message - IMO.

It takes , however long, to learn that 'love' is not what is 'love' in most groups.
Without obedience there is no love.
Without a standard, and discipline, training, doing what is right, there is no love.
Approving of sin , of darkness, leads to destruction, in self as well as outside of self.

Love in Scripture as directed by Yahweh is a choice of the will (many examples / sermons online about this, for now, thankfully) . The choosing to obey Him, which is always the best, always doing what is best for everyone, for others especially.

 

[Dave-W]

The point I am trying to make is that he focused a little too much on the enemy. I also think that while the fear of the Lord is important to teach, it should also be in proportion to God's love.

He was a product of the evangelical culture of the 1950s and 60s. His emphases reflect that culture.

While that may not fit your comfort zone in the 20-teens, it worked in his day. Remember, we had Lester Sumrall on national news for delivering a woman who was bitten by demons in the Philippines. We had Flip Wilson with his comedic tag line “The Devil made me do it.” And we had a huge hit in the early 1970s with The Exorcist.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It takes , however long, to learn that 'love' is not what is 'love' in most groups.

I 100% agree. Narrow is the way.

Without obedience there is no love.

I 100% agree. John 14:15.

Without a standard, and discipline, training, doing what is right, there is no love.

I 100% agree. Romans 2:8.

Approving of sin , of darkness, leads to destruction, in self as well as outside of self.

Even worse. While many try to say that do not approve of sin on the one hand (putting on a show of holiness), they also double speak and say that you can also sin and still be saved (Which is not what the Bible teaches).

Love in Scripture as directed by Yahweh is a choice of the will (many examples / sermons online about this, for now, thankfully) . The choosing to obey Him, which is always the best, always doing what is best for everyone, for others especially.

Yes, in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God (including certain details) and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting everlasting life. In addition to God's saving grace by faith, obedience is a part of salvation, as well. For it is by God's grace that we can obey. These are things that I would like to stress in my own tract. Yes, salvation is about forgiveness, but salvation is more than that. Salvation is also about a changed life in Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Salvation is also about a changed life in Christ.

YES! We can obey when we listen to Him as He Says >>
Romans 12:2 - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%2012%3A2
Don't be like the people of this world, but let God change the way you think. ... world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. ... is good, meets all his demands and moves towards the goal of true maturity. ... eating, going-to-work, and walking-around life—and place it before God as an offering.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

True. And if one is at least spreading the message at least they were "successful" in obeying the Lord.

I agree.

I do think seeing images can be powerful. The moving thing of "This Was Your Life" was to see the fear and terror on the man when it dawned on him what trouble he was in.

It is my favorite tract by Chick. I would only add a few things to it (if I was the creator of this tract).

Yeah maybe the story of the one caught in the act of adultery would be good too where Jesus says those wanting to condemn her, "He that is without sin let him cast the first stone!"

I was thinking of something similar to "This Was Your Life" but slightly different and it include how Jesus suffered in our place for us because He loved us so much, and then He died for us and rose three days later so that we will have a new body one day. I would also stress the benefits of the Christian life a little more in how with Jesus, we will seek to do what is good and right and not evil by His living within us. Jesus not only atones, and forgives sin, but He can help us to overcome. I will point them in the right direction and say that while the OT can be profitable for our lives, but we are to primarily obey the New Testament (or New Covenant); For the 613 laws as a whole within the Law of Moses was a covenant given to Israel. I will say (sort of like a house contract being renewed), we are under a new Covenant (new contract) with new commands. We obey the commands from Jesus and His followers in the New Testament writings. I will stress how we are to love our enemies and to not to think of ourselves more highly than we ought to. To be humble and loving in all things. To return good for evil done against us. I will warn against not chasing after money, not being afraid to be persecuted for Christ, and remaining holy for the Lord. Loving God and loving your neighbor.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

YES! We can obey when we listen to Him as He Says >>
Romans 12:2 - Bible Gateway

Romans 12:2 - Bible Gateway
Don't be like the people of this world, but let God change the way you think. ... world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. ... is good, meets all his demands and moves towards the goal of true maturity. ... eating, going-to-work, and walking-around life—and place it before God as an offering.

I agree.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

 

[Shempster]

Modern translations of the Bible...? How is that a Chick Tract issue?
If true, what Bible(s) does that leave us with?

Not really an issue with ChickTracts, but he represents them. Just mentioning it as a side note.
The story about the codex is very interesting and has several facets. He lays out a pretty good case that the codex was likely produced in the middle ages. There are quotes from individuals who saw it and said it was printed on while vellum. But when Tischendorf presented it, it was potentially stained to make it look older. You can see actual pictures of it online.
If true, KJV only people would be very happy.
Not knowing the whole truth myself, all I can say is that is is a very interesting issue and should not be ignored.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Not really an issue with ChickTracts, but he represents them. Just mentioning it as a side note.
The story about the codex is very interesting and has several facets. He lays out a pretty good case that the codex was likely produced in the middle ages. There are quotes from individuals who saw it and said it was printed on while vellum. But when Tischendorf presented it, it was potentially stained to make it look older. You can see actual pictures of it online.
If true, KJV only people would be very happy.
Not knowing the whole truth myself, all I can say is that is is a very interesting issue and should not be ignored.

There actually is good textual evidence that the Ecf were using texts much closer to what we call the Critical Greek texts than the TR....

 

[Sabertooth]

(@Shempster & @YeshuaFan , The Codex Sinaiticus is a Fake! is probably a more appropriate thread for the Codex Sinaiticus topic...)

 

[ProdigalGander]

I remember these tracts from when I was a kid. There was a street corner evangelist downtown who was always handing them out. The comic book format I think had particular appeal to people my age.

I have a mixed opinion. I thought some of the points they made were Biblical and very much on-target. Particularly the issue of Hell being real. Many people just refuse to accept that anymore.

Some of it I just found plain ridiculous. As a Catholic I can tell you that bit about the Vatican having a computer in the basement that contains the names of every Protestant on Earth is just laughable. Take it from me, I belonged to the Catholic Church for half a century, and they are nowhere NEAR that organized!

Some struck me as weird at the time, but with hindsight gained more credibility. In particular the argument that the TV show Bewitched was inspired by the Devil and was doing his work by making witchcraft appear to be cute, innocent and attractive.

At the time that just seemed silly. But the more I think about it, a tremendous amount of damage has been inflicted upon our culture by the cumulative effect of television programs which, at the time, seemed harmless. Plus I came to learn that nearly every cast member of Bewitched died before their time from something horrible.

Jack Chick was widely regarded as anti-Catholic. Despite this I don't hold any particular grudge against him. I found many of the things he said in his tracts to be true and relevant, and we all see darkly through a glass. And not every criticism of the Catholic Church is invalid, nor does it make you anti-Catholic.

Although if they were capable of databasing the name of every Protestant on Earth you'd think they would be able to get my parish's website to quit crashing!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I remember these tracts from when I was a kid. There was a street corner evangelist downtown who was always handing them out. The comic book format I think had particular appeal to people my age.

I have a mixed opinion. I thought some of the points they made were Biblical and very much on-target. Particularly the issue of Hell being real. Many people just refuse to accept that anymore.

Some of it I just found plain ridiculous. As a Catholic I can tell you that bit about the Vatican having a computer in the basement that contains the names of every Protestant on Earth is just laughable. Take it from me, I belonged to the Catholic Church for half a century, and they are nowhere NEAR that organized!

Some struck me as weird at the time, but with hindsight gained more credibility. In particular the argument that the TV show Bewitched was inspired by the Devil and was doing his work by making witchcraft appear to be cute, innocent and attractive.

At the time that just seemed silly. But the more I think about it, a tremendous amount of damage has been inflicted upon our culture by the cumulative effect of television programs which, at the time, seemed harmless. Plus I came to learn that nearly every cast member of Bewitched died before their time from something horrible.

Jack Chick was widely regarded as anti-Catholic. Despite this I don't hold any particular grudge against him. I found many of the things he said in his tracts to be true and relevant, and we all see darkly through a glass. And not every criticism of the Catholic Church is invalid, nor does it make you anti-Catholic.

Although if they were capable of databasing the name of every Protestant on Earth you'd think they would be able to get my parish's website to quit crashing!

I am against the theology of the Church of Rome. but not individual Catholics, as my prayer for them would be to be able to hear the real Gospel message, and to get born again from above!

 

[jamiec]

Discuss your grievances with Jack Chick's eponymous tracts here, instead of my Graphic Tracts thread.

One of my big grievances about that sort of “Chick lit” is not the fairytales about Catholicism, which in some ways are par for the course - people often have crazy notions about groups they don’t belong to - but, the blunders about Babylonian & Egyptian religion in the Chick lit.

There is room for opinion as to whether Catholicism (say) is a good thing, or a bad thing; but it is not a matter of opinion whether certain alleged facts about Babylonian or Egyptian religion are facts or not. Several of Chick’s alleged facts are no facts at all. They were thought, by some at least, to be facts at the time that his sources were written. It is possible now to realise that those supposed facts are in actuality not facts.

A good deal of the material in those tracts is like a denial of the possibility of manned flight before the flight of the Wright brothers in 1903. Before it was shown that manned flight was not only possible, but could in fact be carried out and be shown to have been carried out, it was perfectly reasonable to doubt or deny that manned flight was possible. But since manned flight is an accomplished fact, and has been for over a century, no scientific proof of its impossibility is worth anything. No set of ideas, however persuasively set forth, can possibly get the better of what is known as a fact to have happened.

Similarly, no argument about the Babylonian or Egyptian source of this or that detail of 19th-century Catholicism is worth anything, if that detail is proved to be Babylonian or Egyptian by arguments which are based on blunders in the source Chick relies on. And there are several such blunders.

 

[Damon50]

Discuss your grievances with Jack Chick's eponymous tracts here, instead of my Graphic Tracts thread.

I’m not into tracts. One one one or more discourses only just like Jesus.

 

[Veloman]

I find these tracts to have a cult-like look and tone to them. Many of them use fear as a means to persuade people to repent or suffer for all eternity--I find this to be a huge error. The bible is clear that it is not the Christian's job to convict others of their sins, but the Holy Spirit's. It is the Christian's job to share the Good News, and in a loving manner--not using fear. I don't find any fault with Jack Chick's intentions, but the motives used are wrong altogether IMHO.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't know if this represents some kind of generational divide or just the fact that I'm not an Evangelical Protestant whereas I presume a lot of people who take to his message and style probably are (or else they presumably wouldn't find it as effective or trustworthy as they apparently do/did), but I've honestly never found them worth taking seriously. The errors about forms of Christianity he did not personally belong to are perhaps understandable to a degree (after all, no one can be expected to know everything about every church on the planet), but that he presented wild speculation and conspiracy theories as fact (like in his tracts on Roman Catholicism) goes a bit beyond more generalized ignorance to a kind of weaponized, fact-resistant ignorance that it is hard to have much sympathy for, whether it is wielded toward supposedly good aims or not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I find these tracts to have a cult-like look and tone to them. Many of them use fear as a means to persuade people to repent or suffer for all eternity--I find this to be a huge error. The bible is clear that it is not the Christian's job to convict others of their sins, but the Holy Spirit's. It is the Christian's job to share the Good News, and in a loving manner--not using fear. I don't find any fault with Jack Chick's intentions, but the motives used are wrong altogether IMHO.

Jude 1:23 says: “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire;”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I find these tracts to have a cult-like look and tone to them. Many of them use fear as a means to persuade people to repent or suffer for all eternity--I find this to be a huge error. The bible is clear that it is not the Christian's job to convict others of their sins, but the Holy Spirit's. It is the Christian's job to share the Good News, and in a loving manner--not using fear. I don't find any fault with Jack Chick's intentions, but the motives used are wrong altogether IMHO.

I was saved by a Chick tract called “This Was Your Life.” I was radically changed by calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation by this tract in 1992.

However, today, I would not pass them out anymore because of their tract called “Flight 144.” It falsely teaches that good works cannot save anyone and the only work that matters is what Jesus did for us on the cross (See page 10 of the tract).

Chick.com: Flight 144

A couple spends 50 years on the mission field, trusting in their good works. But when they die and stand before God, they learn that good works can't save... only Jesus can.

www.chick.com

Yes, the Christian characters who were lost in the story of this tract had the wrong idea about works. They made it all about works and no grace ever in the Messiah (Jesus Christ). Nobody can be saved without Jesus Christ.

So yes, are not saved by Works Alone Salvationism. We are first saved by God’s grace without works in our Initial Salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9 cf. Ephesians 2:1) (Titus 3:3-5). But after we have been saved by God’s grace… God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See 2 Thessalonians 2.13). Sanctification includes good works (see Galatians 6:8-9), and it includes to putting to death the misdeeds of the body (Romans 8:13). Works are a part of God’s plan of salvation (See: 1 Timothy 5:8, Titus 1:16, James 2:24, John 15:4-6, Matthew 3:10, Titus 3:14).

But again, the tract falsely teaches that works are not later required after we are saved by God’s grace (See again page 10 of the tract). I am sure most of my fellow Bible Alone Christians would disagree with me on this point, but the Word of God stands above what men think.

May God bless you.

May the Lord Jesus Christ get all the glory.