The Trinity

[Albion]

huh? if Jesus is just a prophet, angel, of enlightened human teacher, wouldn't that automatically make Him not the Messiah, God in flesh? Seems to me you are not trying to argue semantics rather than listening to what is being said.

I am answering to the question of the thread. IF we address the issue of what the impact would be upon Christianity IF the Trinity were not part of it, we would have to take account of the fact that there are all manner of non-Trinitarians...and that's not a theory. There ARE various kinds of non-Trinitarians. Yes, some see Jesus as "God in the flesh," but there are more who see him as not God at all.

I contend that it makes a huge difference to the nature of Christianity how we see (or would see, if we continue to speak hypothetically, in the manner of the OP) which of those ways of seeing Jesus is contemplated. And it sure as shootin' ain't just "semantics!"

Now...for the specific question you asked:

if Jesus is just a prophet, angel, of enlightened human teacher, wouldn't that automatically make Him not the Messiah, God in flesh?

Yes to one; no to the other.

If that variety of non-Trinitarianism were the one to somehow take over, it would make the Messiah an agent of God but not God himself.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am answering to the question of the thread. IF we address the issue of what the impact would be upon Christianity IF the Trinity were not part of it, we would have to take account of the fact that there are all manner of non-Trinitarians...and that's not a theory. There ARE various kinds of non-Trinitarians. Yes, some see Jesus as "God in the flesh," but there are more who see him as not God at all.

I contend that it makes a huge difference to the nature of Christianity how we see (or would see, if we continue to speak hypothetically, in the manner of the OP) which of those ways of seeing Jesus is contemplated. And it sure as shootin' ain't just "semantics!"

Now...for the specific question you asked:

Yes to one; no to the other.

If that variety of non-Trinitarianism were the one to somehow take over, it would make the Messiah an agent of God but not God himself.

I'm pretty sure that is what I said....but cool, thanks for clarifying

 

[x141]

hum, so you want us to throw out all the bible that tells us that salvation has come for all people, not the Jews alone? Okay...well, I prefer to believe God over you, so I'm leaving it there. Have a great day, hope someday you discover that all of the bible is important, not just the parts you like. not a clue, all gobbldy gook that doesn't reflect anything being said to you..sorry, I'm done with gibberish for a season.

... you read to to reply, not to understand.

 

[donfish06]

Well, I beg to differ with you, being that the HS has been very "vocal" in my life and has been evidenced repeatedly. But like I said, I choose to believe God over you in this matter.

Hah! You cannot find any accounts of anyone being baptized under the saying "Father, Son, Holy Ghost," and you certainly cannot find any accounts of anyone speaking in UNKNOWN tongues upon the receiving of the Holy Ghost. Paul said to keep that at home in your prayer closet. It is not edifying. Unless you're "tongues" were interpreted, then you have NOT had the Acts 2 experience, sorry. Witch doctors in Africa speak in tongues, so I guess they have the Holy Spirit too. They even have interpretations! You're whole foundation of the Bible is wrong...

 

[razzelflabben]

... you read to to reply, not to understand.

that is how you see it, yet I responded with passages you refuse to even acknowledge were presented, I offer deep thought out discussion, which you also refuse, etc. Seems that maybe your accusation might smell of projection, but hey, not a really good day for me physically, so I can let it go and just offer you this blessing.

May you discover the importance of righteousness, listening, and learning all that God has for His people.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hah! You cannot find any accounts of anyone being baptized under the saying "Father, Son, Holy Ghost,"

well, since I presented the passage that tells us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and HS and an accompanying scripture that explains why the change, I'm calling you a liar on this particular claim of yours. Notice I am not calling you a liar in general, that would be a violation of forum rules, but rather that this claim you boast of here is a lie. Since it is an out and out lie, we are done, I have better things to do than talk to people who would rather lie than discuss and communicate.

and you certainly cannot find any accounts of anyone speaking in UNKNOWN tongues upon the receiving of the Holy Ghost.

what does speaking in tongues have to do with anything we are discussing? In fact, I don't recall anything at all being said about tongues, so why bring it up and what does it have to do with the discussion?

Paul said to keep that at home in your prayer closet. It is not edifying. Unless you're "tongues" were interpreted, then you have NOT had the Acts 2 experience, sorry.

I seriously don't have a clue why you want to take this totally off topic and start discussing tongues. I said that the HS was active and evidenced in my life and instead of talking about the HS and your sin of false accusation you want to talk about tongues....scratching my head...oh, wait, are you one of those that has failed to read the evidence of the indwelling HS in scripture as well, thus thinking that the evidence of the HS is tongues instead of accepting what we are told in Gal. 5, that would make sense and would explain why you can't accept what scripture plainly says about trinity too, cause you don't really know what scripture says, only what you have been taught to believe....well, at least that is cleared up...thanks for playing the "see who can flame the other into leaving first" game, it's a game I refuse to play, so you will always win, cause I will just leave you to play the game by yourself.

Witch doctors in Africa speak in tongues, so I guess they have the Holy Spirit too. They even have interpretations! You're whole foundation of the Bible is wrong...

I have a very dear, dear friend whose father was a Voodoo priest before coming to Christ and bringing his family with him. I imagine I could teach you some things about such worship, not to mention that we have a friend who became demon possessed by people from the "church" trying to teach her to speak in tongues. I was present and praying while the demon was being cast out, so again, I'm pretty sure I can teach you some things you don't know about demons and tongues and false teachings and the bible...oh, wait, you want to accuse me of not knowing the bible...I forgot that was your point, I forgot you were playing the flame game, my bad.

Oh, and when you are ready to discuss and learn what scripture says, let me know, cause I study an average of 8-10 hours a day 6-7 days a week, interrupted only to teach, counsel, or deal with life, like the recent death of my father. In fact, God has put me in a situation in which study is pretty much my full time job right now. Not sure for how much longer, been so for about 7 years now, but hoping God moves me into more teaching soon, or serving, I would love to have that gift, best gift ever if you ask me. Let me know when your heart is soft enough to study scripture together, I would love the opportunity to be there when you take off the blinders of the teachers you hold to, and instead allow the HS to teach you what the teachers are unable to

 

[donfish06]

well, since I presented the passage that tells us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and HS and an accompanying scripture that explains why the change, I'm calling you a liar on this particular claim of yours. Notice I am not calling you a liar in general, that would be a violation of forum rules, but rather that this claim you boast of here is a lie. Since it is an out and out lie, we are done, I have better things to do than talk to people who would rather lie than discuss and communicate. what does speaking in tongues have to do with anything we are discussing? In fact, I don't recall anything at all being said about tongues, so why bring it up and what does it have to do with the discussion? I seriously don't have a clue why you want to take this totally off topic and start discussing tongues. I said that the HS was active and evidenced in my life and instead of talking about the HS and your sin of false accusation you want to talk about tongues....scratching my head...oh, wait, are you one of those that has failed to read the evidence of the indwelling HS in scripture as well, thus thinking that the evidence of the HS is tongues instead of accepting what we are told in Gal. 5, that would make sense and would explain why you can't accept what scripture plainly says about trinity too, cause you don't really know what scripture says, only what you have been taught to believe....well, at least that is cleared up...thanks for playing the "see who can flame the other into leaving first" game, it's a game I refuse to play, so you will always win, cause I will just leave you to play the game by yourself. I have a very dear, dear friend whose father was a Voodoo priest before coming to Christ and bringing his family with him. I imagine I could teach you some things about such worship, not to mention that we have a friend who became demon possessed by people from the "church" trying to teach her to speak in tongues. I was present and praying while the demon was being cast out, so again, I'm pretty sure I can teach you some things you don't know about demons and tongues and false teachings and the bible...oh, wait, you want to accuse me of not knowing the bible...I forgot that was your point, I forgot you were playing the flame game, my bad.

Oh, and when you are ready to discuss and learn what scripture says, let me know, cause I study an average of 8-10 hours a day 6-7 days a week, interrupted only to teach, counsel, or deal with life, like the recent death of my father. In fact, God has put me in a situation in which study is pretty much my full time job right now. Not sure for how much longer, been so for about 7 years now, but hoping God moves me into more teaching soon, or serving, I would love to have that gift, best gift ever if you ask me. Let me know when your heart is soft enough to study scripture together, I would love the opportunity to be there when you take off the blinders of the teachers you hold to, and instead allow the HS to teach you what the teachers are unable to

I am sorry, I thought when you said "the Holy Ghost has been very vocal" you were saying that you spoke in tongues. Totally sorry.

I am glad that you have so much time to study the Word, but as you are aware, that means nothing. The Pharisees studies and knew the Word better than you, but they still MISSED the Word when He was standing right in front of them.

I am not saying this is you, but just letting you know that the fact that you study that much proves nothing to me.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am sorry, I thought when you said "the Holy Ghost has been very vocal" you were saying that you spoke in tongues. Totally sorry.

exactly, you judged without ever listening, cause if you had been listening you would know that I base my beliefs off what the bible tells us not off what some teacher says to believe...thus, the bible teaches that the fruit of the spirit is found in Gal. 5 and that the primary evidence of the HS is righteousness, not sin, not tongues, not judgment of others, but righteousness, a righteousness and humility that confounds the wise of this world. An obedience and grace coupled with peace and joy that the world cannot understand. These are what the bible tells us the evidence of the indwelling HS is, yet you saw fit to judge what you refused to hear.

I am glad that you have so much time to study the Word, but as you are aware, that means nothing. The Pharisees studies and knew the Word better than you, but they still MISSED the Word when He was standing right in front of them.

well, first, you don't have any idea how well I know the word as compared to the Pharisees, this is more of that sinful judgment. Second, I have this time because this is currently what God has called me to do and equipped me to do. IOW's it is God's call on my life, not my own or yours or anyone elses, which leads us to point three. as God's call on my life for this season, He is the one who leads my study, guides my study and thoughts, He is my teacher, for if He is not all those things, then it is me who is calling myself to study. In fact, just a slight bit of a hint for you, even though I am uncomfortable with it, many people have not only recognized that call in my life right now, but have called me anointed for the task at hand. So before you lay down another sinful judgment of what you do not know, take a moment to quiet yourself and ask God why your ideas of me do not line up with His. It might be eye opening enough that you allow Him to change your heart enough that we can actually talk about the things of God rather than listen to your non stop judgments and boasts of knowing what you do not.

I am not saying this is you, but just letting you know that the fact that you study that much proves nothing to me.

amen...and it shouldn't, what should prove something to you is that I have behaved myself as one who is following after Christ. What should matter to you is that I demonstrated the indwelling HS. What should matter to you is that I not only provided scripture and rightly divided it, but that I also addressed every passage you presented without hesitation. What should matter to you is that my heart is still soft enough to learn from whomever is willing to address the totality of scripture as evidenced by their own behavior on these posts. Those are the things that should matter. Just because I disagree with what you appear to be saying, doesn't even mean we disagree since your posts show you to continually change your position. What matters is that just like the issue of tongues, I evidence not only a knowledge but a living out of the truths of scripture no matter where that takes me and in that, you should discover a willing ness in your own heart to be as scripture says, slow to speak, quick to listen and in this way, we can fulfill another passage that says, iron sharpens iron. As long as you hold to your sin of judgment in these posts however, there is nothing more that can be said, for your pride will not allow your heart to hear what you have not heard to date.

Blessing not a jab...may you learn to soften your heart, may you have ears to hear, eyes to see. May you be granted knowledge, understanding, and Gods' wisdom not your own wisdom nor the wisdom of men.

 

[str8_TALK]

Just curious ... where is the term "God the Son" in the Bible ... and where is Jesus called "God in the flesh"? (I know this terminology is in Roman Catholic catechisms, but I can't find these terms or phrases in scripture.) Thanks.

 

[donfish06]

Just curious ... where is the term "God the Son"

It's not

in the Bible ... and where is Jesus called "God in the flesh"? (I know this terminology is in Roman Catholic catechisms, but I can't find these terms or phrases in scripture.) Thanks.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Word=God
Word made flesh = God made flesh

 

[Albion]

Just curious ... where is the term "God the Son" in the Bible ... and where is Jesus called "God in the flesh"? (I know this terminology is in Roman Catholic catechisms, but I can't find these terms or phrases in scripture.) Thanks.

Jesus is described both as God and as the Son. He came in the flesh, as a real human born of a woman--which is referred to in many places in Scripture. So there's very little to get concerned about if we use the same words but in a slightly different way.

 

[7xlightray]

-Savior & One and only God-
Isaiah 43:10-11
"You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11
I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

Luke 2:11
For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Acts 13:23
From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus

+ plenty of other references to Christ as our savior.

The whole purpose of the Bible is for God's creation to know who He is, what He has done for us and for us to honor and worship Him. I really believe not knowing who Christ really is, is not knowing who God is. Don't take my word for it though, don't take any organizations word for it, read your bible and let its truths speak to you.

That's right the veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.


Isaiah 43:10-12, is referring to God the Father as the only savior “beside me there is no saviour.”

Only God the Father could bring salvation to man, and I don't mean die for man (God cannot die, that's why He had to send the man Jesus Christ to die). I mean, it was His plan, His work, and His wisdom, and nothing could happen without there being a God. Does this mean Jesus is not our savior? No, that is not what it is saying. If that was your conclusion, then you did not understand what I just said, nor what the scriptures are saying.

It's the same as when it says, only God has immortality 1 Timothy 6 (which speaks of the Father, but for another study), well the angels have immortality. So, how could God only have immortality, if the angels also have immortality? we must come to the correct understanding, as to what He means.

Which is, God is the possessor, owner of immortality. Without Him, there would be no immortality, all immortality comes from Him. As is salvation, salvation only comes from Him, the Father.


It's His plan, from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8. It's His work, as Jesus said it's the Father that dwells in me doing the works John 14:10. The foolishness of God is wiser then men 1 Corinthians 1:24-25. And it was the Father in Christ reconciling the world to Himself 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Colossians 1:19- 20; Ephesians 1:3-5; Ephesians 2:16-18. John 14:10 - They are one, by the one and only same Spirit, as we are to be.

Here scripture makes it clear, that it was the Father reconciling us to Himself; working in Christ to will and to do (Just as He should be working in us. It's our work, that He gave us to do, but it is all of God, that gives us the will and to do.)

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who [“Who” being the Father, which should be easy to see, if we follow the flow of the written text] hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he [Father] hath chosen us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him [Father] in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [this being the reconciliation] by Jesus Christ to himself [Father], according to the good pleasure of his will [Father],

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
And all things are of God [Father, Ephesians 1:3], who hath reconciled us to himself [Father] by Jesus Christ...19 To wit, that God [Father John 14:10] was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself [Father, Ephesians 1:3-5].


Isaiah 45 also gives us this understanding of Isaiah 43.

14 ...and they shall fall down [bow down] unto thee [Jesus, Philippians 2:10], they shall make supplication unto thee [Jesus], saying, Surely God [Father] is in thee[Jesus Genesis 41:38; Daniel 4:9; Daniel 5:11, 14; John 14:10. Notice it says, Surely God is IN you, not Surely you ARE God. And who does scripture say was in Christ? The Father was in Christ John 14:10];

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

At first, they did not recognize that it was the Father working in Christ, as John 1:10-11 says. After his resurrection, then Thomas got it, saying “my lord and my God!”

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD [Father, as you can see by this and what comes next...speaking of the son: even to him...] have I righteousness and strength [Yhvh our righteousness Jeremiah 23;33]: even to him [Jesus, ...and this...] shall men come; and all that are incensed against him [Jesus] shall be ashamed.


And Jesus did not preexist as a person, before his birth, as Isaiah 45 also states.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee [Jesus] by thy name [Luke 1:31, which was at his birth]: I have surnamed thee, though thou [Jesus] hast not known me [Father, LORD, Yhvh].

...and Psalm 22, which is from the Psalm that speaks, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me.”

10 I [Jesus] was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God [and Father] from my mother's belly.

 

[razzelflabben]

Just curious ... where is the term "God the Son" in the Bible ... and where is Jesus called "God in the flesh"? (I know this terminology is in Roman Catholic catechisms, but I can't find these terms or phrases in scripture.) Thanks.

don't know about "God the Son" but not sure that would apply anyway being that Jesus claims to be God....I didn't go over this with a fine tooth comb but it seems pretty good http://www.learnthebible.org/god-the-son.html

John 1:1-14...

Not really sure about exact words or why you would want them given that the bible we have is not the original lang. but there you go anyway, the ideas of the exact words are there.

 

[razzelflabben]

That's right the veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.


Isaiah 43:10-12, is referring to God the Father as the only savior “beside me there is no saviour.”

Only God the Father could bring salvation to man, and I don't mean die for man (God cannot die, that's why He had to send the man Jesus Christ to die). I mean, it was His plan, His work, and His wisdom, and nothing could happen without there being a God. Does this mean Jesus is not our savior? No, that is not what it is saying. If that was your conclusion, then you did not understand what I just said, nor what the scriptures are saying.

It's the same as when it says, only God has immortality 1 Timothy 6 (which speaks of the Father, but for another study), well the angels have immortality. So, how could God only have immortality, if the angels also have immortality? we must come to the correct understanding, as to what He means.

look, I know you already gave up talking to me because you would rather flame me with falsehoods then deal with what I have told you, but if you read and understand scripture, we humans are also immortal by the meaning of the word immortal. IOW's we have an "eternal" soul...so nothing is evidenced by this long drawn out appeal to claim God cannot die even though it is beyond possible and wholly probable that if God put on the clothes of flesh as you have been shown in scripture, He could die as we know death, that is the flesh could come to an end. Just like every other human being. I really don't know why you are so hung up on changing word meanings here, but it isn't pretty.

Which is, God is the possessor, owner of immortality. Without Him, there would be no immortality, all immortality comes from Him. As is salvation, salvation only comes from Him, the Father.

only problem here, you didn't say above that God was the creator of eternity, which I think we all are agreeing He is, but that He could not die as we die, that is to say that your claim seems to be that God could not put on the clothes of the flesh and then have that flesh die as we know death. What is really curious to me is why you and some others think that God is so weak that He couldn't clothe Himself with flesh, much less allow that flesh to see the same fate that all flesh sees and still be God. I don't know, I just can't wrap my head around how weak you think God is that He couldn't do this, then still have the power to "reunite" the flesh with the soul that is the eternal part of all men. Just astounds me that you can't fathom that God is powerful enough to do just that.

It's His plan, from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8. It's His work, as Jesus said it's the Father that dwells in me doing the works John 14:10. The foolishness of God is wiser then men 1 Corinthians 1:24-25. And it was the Father in Christ reconciling the world to Himself 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Colossians 1:19- 20; Ephesians 1:3-5; Ephesians 2:16-18. John 14:10 - They are one, by the one and only same Spirit, as we are to be.

as best I can tell, you are the only one on this thread trying to claim there is more than one God....not even sure where you get that idea, but attributing it to trinity doctrine is just more of the false accusations we have grown accustom to from you and another poster.

Here scripture makes it clear, that it was the Father reconciling us to Himself; working in Christ to will and to do (Just as He should be working in us. It's our work, that He gave us to do, but it is all of God, that gives us the will and to do.)

now wait a moment....according to what you say above, that would be impossible because that would make as many God's as there are true believers who are the temple of the living God. So why do this flip flop? If we can have the HS, that is to say, the spirit of ONE God dwelling within us, why can't Jesus? I don't know, the more you talk the more confusing you become.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who [“Who” being the Father, which should be easy to see, if we follow the flow of the written text] hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he [Father] hath chosen us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him [Father] in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [this being the reconciliation] by Jesus Christ to himself [Father], according to the good pleasure of his will [Father],

yep, evidence to what the trinitarians here keep telling you, God is FAther, Son, and Spirit and yet just ONE God, that is trinity in a nutshell.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19
And all things are of God [Father, Ephesians 1:3], who hath reconciled us to himself [Father] by Jesus Christ...19 To wit, that God [Father John 14:10] was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself [Father, Ephesians 1:3-5].


Isaiah 45 also gives us this understanding of Isaiah 43.

14 ...and they shall fall down [bow down] unto thee [Jesus, Philippians 2:10], they shall make supplication unto thee [Jesus], saying, Surely God [Father] is in thee[Jesus Genesis 41:38; Daniel 4:9; Daniel 5:11, 14; John 14:10. Notice it says, Surely God is IN you, not Surely you ARE God. And who does scripture say was in Christ? The Father was in Christ John 14:10];

hum...so you are then going with God is a liar, cause God was in Jesus and Jesus claimed to be God and God didn't correct Him, thus God is a liar even though scripture says very clearly that God cannot lie....what a strange doctrine....personally, I'm going with God cannot lie, but everyone gets to choose what they believe, so good luck with your assertion that God is a liar...btw, this passage is NOT calling God a liar, your interpretation that it is, is not rightly dividing the word.

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

At first, they did not recognize that it was the Father working in Christ, as John 1:10-11 says. After his resurrection, then Thomas got it, saying “my lord and my God!”

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD [Father, as you can see by this and what comes next...speaking of the son: even to him...] have I righteousness and strength [Yhvh our righteousness Jeremiah 23;33]: even to him [Jesus, ...and this...] shall men come; and all that are incensed against him [Jesus] shall be ashamed.


And Jesus did not preexist as a person, before his birth, as Isaiah 45 also states.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee [Jesus] by thy name [Luke 1:31, which was at his birth]: I have surnamed thee, though thou [Jesus] hast not known me [Father, LORD, Yhvh].

...and Psalm 22, which is from the Psalm that speaks, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me.”

10 I [Jesus] was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God [and Father] from my mother's belly.

see above

 

[7xlightray]

look, I know you already gave up talking to me because you would rather flame me with falsehoods then deal with what I have told you, but if you read and understand scripture, we humans are also immortal by the meaning of the word immortal. IOW's we have an "eternal" soul...so nothing is evidenced by this long drawn out appeal to claim God cannot die even though it is beyond possible and wholly probable that if God put on the clothes of flesh as you have been shown in scripture, He could die as we know death, that is the flesh could come to an end. Just like every other human being. I really don't know why you are so hung up on changing word meanings here, but it isn't pretty.

Again that is not what my post is about. My post is not about whether God can die. I even stated in there, I was not referring to death. All I could suggest is reread my post.

And like you say, only His shell died, which would be what?

You are saying because God put on a coat, then took it off, God died. This is what you are trying to get me to believe? And yet saying (even as I have been saying), that God did not really die, because only His shell died. Though I believe as scripture states, that the fullness of God the Father dwelt in Christ.

No, the reason is, you continually build a straw man argument. I see no point in that.

Why don't you actually address my point in that post?
Do you even believe Isaiah 45 is even speaking of the Father and Christ?

 

[donfish06]

Just curious ... where is the term "God the Son" in the Bible ... and where is Jesus called "God in the flesh"? (I know this terminology is in Roman Catholic catechisms, but I can't find these terms or phrases in scripture.) Thanks.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[razzelflabben]

Again that is not what my post is about. My post is not about whether God can die. I even stated in there, I was not referring to death. All I could suggest is reread my post.

you said God cannot die...you said it to me previously and again here as if it is some magic claim that will make everything you say sound wise. I told you back then and I am telling you now, God in flesh can die just like you and I can die. Maybe you should reread what I said and if you mean something else, try to reword it into something that really is wise, not just something that sounds wise to you.

And like you say, only His shell died, which would be what?

the flesh...just like you and I...Jesus as fully human and fully God could have a flesh that dies as we know death and it wouldn't even be necessary for Him to be fully God for that to be the case and yet, His soul would not have died. IOW's all this none sense isn't proving your claims, it is just proving that Jesus could without question be fully man and fully God.

You are saying because God put on a coat, then took it off, God died. This is what you are trying to get me to believe? And yet saying (even as I have been saying), that God did not really die, because only His shell died. Though I believe as scripture states, that the fullness of God the Father dwelt in Christ.

scratching my head trying to figure out what you do not get....we are body, soul and spirit...the body is dust and will return to dust, the soul and spirit are eternal. Jesus deity doesn't rely on that truth to testify to who He is or is not. It's just how mankind is created by God.

No, the reason is, you continually build a straw man argument. I see no point in that.

it's your argument not mine..how is it possible for me to build a strongman argument when I am not building an argument at all only responding to your argument? That is just gibberish inflammatory remarks on your part.

Why don't you actually address my point in that post?
Do you even believe Isaiah 45 is even speaking of the Father and Christ?

I did address it many times over, if you can't follow, I'm not sure what to tell you given that you are bent on flaming rather than communicating.

 

[str8_TALK]

So, basically, neither of the terms or phrases, "God the Son" nor "God in the flesh", are terms of scripture, but rather extra-biblical mantras. My question was to those who use these terms to show any place in all of scripture where they are used. No one could show an instance. Why should we use terminology that God does not use?

Jesus is described over and over as the "Son of God". In fact, the same author of the prologue of John 1, in I John 4:15, tells us that we must confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Matthew 16:16 tells us that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. There is not a scripture to be found containing a claim by Jesus that he is also God. He was accused of making himself equal to God by the lying Pharisees, but quickly refuted them, saying plainly that he was the "Son of God", John 10.

Jesus came in the flesh. God is light and He is spirit. He uses messengers in His name, angels and men, to speak for Him, Hebrews 1:1, until all darkness is gone, per I Cor 15:25-28. Jesus is always subject to the Father and serves Him throughout the redemptive history of mankind and beyond.

It is impossible that God, Who is light, could take on the sins of the whole world. Another person had to do this, which is why Jesus is the propitiation TO God for the sins of the whole world, not the propitiation AS God. The doctrine of Christ is that he came in the flesh, II John 7-9, to be the propitiation to God for the sins of the world. God has exalted this servant and given him a name above all names and placed him at His right hand. There is only one God, the Father, I Cor. 8:6, and there is one lord, Jesus Christ. It is because of Jesus that God created all things, knowing that redemption was possible for all who believe, and that a new creation would be the result.

The Bible teaches who Jesus is, the Son of God. Religious traditions teach he is another thing, God the Son.

 

[justlookinla]

It's not



Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Word=God
Word made flesh = God made flesh

John 1:1 can just as easily be translated "and the Word was a god", depends on one's theological leanings. And no, I'm not Jehovah Witness.

 

[razzelflabben]

So, basically, neither of the terms or phrases, "God the Son" nor "God in the flesh", are terms of scripture, but rather extra-biblical mantras. My question was to those who use these terms to show any place in all of scripture where they are used. No one could show an instance. Why should we use terminology that God does not use?

hum...I apologize for responding then, I didn't know you were agreeing with me that it is a semantics game....my sincere apology.

Jesus is described over and over as the "Son of God". In fact, the same author of the prologue of John 1, in I John 4:15, tells us that we must confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Matthew 16:16 tells us that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. There is not a scripture to be found containing a claim by Jesus that he is also God. He was accused of making himself equal to God by the lying Pharisees, but quickly refuted them, saying plainly that he was the "Son of God", John 10.

now, that isn't quite right and I have shown passages that show Jesus saying He is God...but apparently, that isn't something you want to listen to, so moving on.

Jesus came in the flesh. God is light and He is spirit. He uses messengers in His name, angels and men, to speak for Him, Hebrews 1:1, until all darkness is gone, per I Cor 15:25-28. Jesus is always subject to the Father and serves Him throughout the redemptive history of mankind and beyond.

It is impossible that God, Who is light, could take on the sins of the whole world. Another person had to do this, which is why Jesus is the propitiation TO God for the sins of the whole world, not the propitiation AS God. The doctrine of Christ is that he came in the flesh, II John 7-9, to be the propitiation to God for the sins of the world. God has exalted this servant and given him a name above all names and placed him at His right hand. There is only one God, the Father, I Cor. 8:6, and there is one lord, Jesus Christ. It is because of Jesus that God created all things, knowing that redemption was possible for all who believe, and that a new creation would be the result.

The Bible teaches who Jesus is, the Son of God. Religious traditions teach he is another thing, God the Son.

so apparently the whole bible isn't important to you, which is your choice, but I and others take the whole bible as evidence that Jesus is God in the flesh just like He testifies to being. Thanks for sharing your opinions.