The Trinity

[razzelflabben]

There is no contradiction. There is no issue. The simple fact is, only one God is identified in the passage, God the Father. Jesus isn't identified using the same identifier (God) as the Father for to do so would be presenting two Gods.....God the Father and Jesus God. The explanation is simple.

it's like talking to a brick wall....seriously, I am sure you can do better than this...like I repeatedly showed you, your version of the passage reveals two God's mine only one, but I don't even care about that at the moment, at the moment all I care about is how I am suppose to believe your interpretation that God anointed Jesus a non God to be equal, that is to be a God with God the Father when throughout scripture we are told to never worship any God but the living God. By not even trying to answer the question you make it look like your views are false right off the bat. Scripture is clear that we are not to worship any God but the living God, but in your interpretation of the passage, that same God who tells us not to worship any other God's is anointing a non God, Jesus into the position of God...who who then do we worship? That would be yet another way to ask the same question...if we are to worship only One God, the Living God and that same God anoints a non God to be equal to Him, who are we to worship and follow? Why would God make a mere man equal to Himself? Why make Jesus a God only to tell us not to worship Him? This makes no sense at all of your interpretation of the passage. Unless or until you can answer the question with something convincing you can't be taken seriously.

Who anointed Jesus? God? When God anointed Jesus, was God anointing God?

now, i already answered this, but it is irrelevant to the question at hand, because as you have repeatedly been told, at this point in the discussion, we are assuming your interpretation is right...that means at this point, what I am telling you is the interpretation is not even on the table, all that is being discussed is how to reconcile your interpretation with the totality of scripture. We can come back to what I am telling you in due time, but instead of confusing the matter, first we explore your interpretation and ask hard questions of it, then you can do the same of mine. One step at a time...one step at a time...you claim you are right in your interpretation, thus it is your turn to answer the hard questions that arise in your interpretation, and just ignoring the question only makes your view look like it is wrong.

No, not to position of God, there's only one God in the position of God, God the Father. God wasn't making Jesus God, He was giving Jesus an anointing that He (Jesus) did not have before His God and Father anointed Him. God was not anointing God.

now, I pointed this out to you before but I will do so again because talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. the entire sentence is this....remember you claimed to be using context, thus the entire sentence is in play here....
For this reason God highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name
that is above every name,

Notice that in the context of the sentence, we aren't even looking at the context of the discussion, Jesus is being exalted above even the name of God.

10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—

Now, remember my question about worship...here it is in context...everyone is to bow to and worship Jesus, it doesn't say to worship God it says to worship Jesus, so either Jesus is in fact God as the trinitarian believes, or you need to reconcile why we are told to not worship any other Gods and yet here, God exalts Jesus to the position of being worshiped even above God the Father.

11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Now, the rest of this we already showed through word study you were wrong, but it doesn't matter to the question currently on the table, so we will just leave this hang out to dry for the moment while you try to pretend you don't have to answer the questions asked.

Anointing doesn't make one a God.....and it didn't make Jesus God.

No, but anointing Him to be worshiped does...

 

[razzelflabben]

By dodging the apparent contradiction razz pointed out, you ultimately (logically) assert that Jesus Christ does not have all authority and power in the universe.

Jesus did say he is "I AM". He is the identity of God. He is GOD-MANIFEST (Emmanuel).

In him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily.

Should I continue?

My husband says I am like a cat playing with a mouse when it comes to some of these discussions, I don't see it that way, but I will say you just took the "fun" out of the chase

 

[Aijalon]

Oh, I'm a dog person. heheh

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh, I'm a dog person. heheh

lol that explains why you took the fun out of it....

 

[Aijalon]

just imagine if we combined forces!

 

[razzelflabben]

just imagine if we combined forces!

I like the way you think

 

[LoveofTruth]

I've already proven Jesus could not be the God. - Part 2

If Lord means God, then God raised God from the dead.

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord [God? Really? God raised God, or Himself from the dead?], and will also raise up us by his own power [Ephesians 1:17-20].​

How could anyone give anything to God, when it was God who gave life to all?

Job 34:13-15
13 Who gave Him [“Him” is speaking of God] charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
14 If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
​

Jesus was appointed heir of all things, who also received life from the Father.

Hebrews 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things​

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me : for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself , but he sent me.​

Jesus said, he did not send himself, he said, God sent him. Think about this one, God sent him, he did not send himself. If Jesus is God, the only true God, the Father of creation (as many like to play with that title, saying Jesus is our Father of creation, but on the other hand, the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, then in this context “if God were your Father,” it would have to refer to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if you believe in a trinity), then he must have sent himself, yet he says he did not. How can anyone send God? If Jesus is God, he could not be the most high God, if someone else sent him, for Jesus would be appointed, and obeying someone higher then himself. If Jesus was God, he would be doing the sending, or at the very least, sending himself.

The Word that was with the Father and was the Father, is the Word of Life, that is also spoken of in 1 John 1. It's the Father's Word, it's the Father, His Life. And that Word became a man, but with Adam, God took some dirt, and made a man. Jesus is the Word of Life that came down, and became a spiritual man, with the Law written in his heart. Jesus was made like us in every way, but had the Word of Life dwelling in him, which revealed the Father.

If God made him both Lord and Christ, if God made him Christ, then He made him Lord, or God as some would have it, that is, if Lord means God.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord [Kyrios] and Christ.​

Isaiah 48:12-17 clearly shows the Lord God speaking of the Lord God and His Spirit sending him.

 

[justlookinla]

You appeared to be saying that Jesus Christ is never identified as God, and does not share the Father's identity.

I'm saying in the passage in question that only one God is identified, God the Father.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm saying in the passage in question that only one God is identified, God the Father.

and I am asking you how this fits with God's commands in scripture given the context of the passage that you claimed to be using. It really is a simple question, why do you refuse to answer it?

 

[justlookinla]

it's like talking to a brick wall....seriously, I am sure you can do better than this...like I repeatedly showed you, your version of the passage reveals two God's mine only one,

Not true. There's only one God in the passage, the Father. Using your interpretation, there's two.....God #1, the Father, and God #2, Jesus. Of course Paul doesn't identify Jesus as he does the Father.....that's important.

but I don't even care about that at the moment, at the moment all I care about is how I am suppose to believe your interpretation that God anointed Jesus

Who anointed Jesus? God the Father or Jesus God?

a non God to be equal, that is to be a God with God the Father

No, Jesus isn't a God with God the Father. God the Father's anointing of Jesus didn't make Him God the Father.

 

[justlookinla]

and I am asking you how this fits with God's commands in scripture given the context of the passage that you claimed to be using. It really is a simple question, why do you refuse to answer it?

It fits perfectly with scripture. There's only one being to be worshiped as the one true God, God the Father.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I've already proven Jesus could not be the God. - Part 2

If Lord means God, then God raised God from the dead.

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord [God? Really? God raised God, or Himself from the dead?], and will also raise up us by his own power [Ephesians 1:17-20].​

How could anyone give anything to God, when it was God who gave life to all?

Job 34:13-15
13 Who gave Him [“Him” is speaking of God] charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
14 If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
​

Jesus was appointed heir of all things, who also received life from the Father.

Hebrews 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things​

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me : for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself , but he sent me.​

Jesus said, he did not send himself, he said, God sent him. Think about this one, God sent him, he did not send himself. If Jesus is God, the only true God, the Father of creation (as many like to play with that title, saying Jesus is our Father of creation, but on the other hand, the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father, then in this context “if God were your Father,” it would have to refer to God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, if you believe in a trinity), then he must have sent himself, yet he says he did not. How can anyone send God? If Jesus is God, he could not be the most high God, if someone else sent him, for Jesus would be appointed, and obeying someone higher then himself. If Jesus was God, he would be doing the sending, or at the very least, sending himself.

The Word that was with the Father and was the Father, is the Word of Life, that is also spoken of in 1 John 1. It's the Father's Word, it's the Father, His Life. And that Word became a man, but with Adam, God took some dirt, and made a man. Jesus is the Word of Life that came down, and became a spiritual man, with the Law written in his heart. Jesus was made like us in every way, but had the Word of Life dwelling in him, which revealed the Father.

If God made him both Lord and Christ, if God made him Christ, then He made him Lord, or God as some would have it, that is, if Lord means God.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord [Kyrios] and Christ.​

“the Word was God.” John 1:14 and the Word was made flesh

And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28

 

[razzelflabben]

Not true. There's only one God in the passage, the Father. Using your interpretation, there's two.....God #1, the Father, and God #2, Jesus. Of course Paul doesn't identify Jesus as he does the Father.....that's important.

your still trying to evade the question, why? Why do you refuse to answer the question? As I already said, at this point, we are assuming your interpretation, so stop at this point trying to ask me about my understanding and just answer the darn question of your understanding. Why would God who tells us to worship only Him, exalt Jesus a non deity to deity level? This makes no sense of your understanding.

Who anointed Jesus? God the Father or Jesus God?

doesn't matter at this point in the discussion, at this point, all we need is for you to answer the questions that arise in your understanding of the passage.

No, Jesus isn't a God with God the Father. God the Father's anointing of Jesus didn't make Him God the Father.

No, according to the text, God's anointing made Him God, not God the Father, just God

 

[justlookinla]

your still trying to evade the question, why? Why do you refuse to answer the question? As I already said, at this point, we are assuming your interpretation, so stop at this point trying to ask me about my understanding and just answer the darn question of your understanding.

To understand that the passage in question has Paul identifying only one God, the Father, is important.

Why would God who tells us to worship only Him, exalt Jesus a non deity to deity level?

God exalting His Son, anointing Him, was the prerogative of Jesus' (and Mary's) God and Father. Jesus' God did not exalt and anoint Him to take His place as God, for there's only one God (Jesus and Mary's God), but exalted Him as His only begotten Son.

This makes no sense of your understanding. doesn't matter at this point in the discussion, at this point, all we need is for you to answer the questions that arise in your understanding of the passage. No, according to the text, God's anointing made Him God, not God the Father, just God

No, according to the text Jesus was not made God by God anointing Him. Again, God didn't anoint God with an anointing that God didn't have before God anointed God in order that God can become God.

 

[razzelflabben]

It fits perfectly with scripture. There's only one being to be worshiped as the one true God, God the Father.

then why did God exalt Jesus to the status of deity in this passage? It isn't a hard question if you are speaking truth, why do you keep refusing to answer? Could your difficulty be that the teaching you present is not truth?

 

[justlookinla]

then why did God exalt Jesus to the status of deity in this passage? It isn't a hard question if you are speaking truth, why do you keep refusing to answer? Could your difficulty be that the teaching you present is not truth?

You have no scripture where God made Jesus God by God anointing Jesus.

 

[razzelflabben]

To understand that the passage in question has Paul identifying only one God, the Father, is important.

look, more of you trying to change the topic...in context, your understanding puts Jesus in the place of God...thus we are forced to ask the question of your claim. So, I'm going to keep asking, you might as well answer, I am pretty stubborn that way...why would God command us to not worship any God but Him, then anoint Jesus, a non God to the position of God? Notice the question does not assume that God and Jesus are the same, but rather assumes as you claim that God and Jesus are not the same...when we do that, we are now suddenly with two deities in this passage. So if we are not to worship any God but God, why would God anoint or exalt Jesus to the position of God in this passage?

God exalting His Son, anointing Him, was the prerogative of Jesus' (and Mary's) God and Father. Jesus' God did not exalt and anoint Him to take His place as God, for there's only one God (Jesus and Mary's God), but exalted Him as His only begotten Son.

yet according to the text, He is now above even God...so we have a huge problem. Now show show how to explain it away.

No, according to the text Jesus was not made God by God anointing Him. Again, God didn't anoint God with an anointing that God didn't have before God anointed God in order that God can become God.

His position after anointing was that of deity just like the text says...so why was He given deity status if He wasn't God?

 

[razzelflabben]

You have no scripture where God made Jesus God by God anointing Jesus.

The very passage in question says that God's anointing of Jesus sets His name above all other names as well as setting Him to a position in which every knee will bow to Him, as in worship Him. So if we are to worship only God then why did God set Jesus as the one to be worshiped.

 

[justlookinla]

look, more of you trying to change the topic...

I'm sticking with the passage in question, the one where Paul identified only one God....the Father. The topic is concerning Jesus being God or not.

in context, your understanding puts Jesus in the place of God...

It does quite the opposite. It never places Jesus in the position of God for there's only God, Jesus' God......God the Father.

thus we are forced to ask the question of your claim. So, I'm going to keep asking, you might as well answer, I am pretty stubborn that way...why would God command us to not worship any God but Him, then anoint Jesus, a non God to the position of God?

If you can support your view that God anointing Jesus makes Him God, please post the scripture.

Notice the question does not assume that God and Jesus are the same,

Jesus and God aren't the same. One is God, one isn't.

but rather assumes as you claim that God and Jesus are not the same...when we do that, we are now suddenly with two deities in this passage.

Nope, there's only one deity....Jesus and Mary's God, God the Father. Who anointed Jesus. Not God anointing God with an anointing God didn't previously have.

So if we are not to worship any God but God, why would God anoint or exalt Jesus to the position of God in this passage?

He doesn't.

yet according to the text, He is now above even God...so we have a huge problem. Now show show how to explain it away. His position after anointing was that of deity just like the text says...so why was He given deity status if He wasn't God?

Post the scripture which indicates that Jesus is above His God and Father.

 

[justlookinla]

The very passage in question says that God's anointing of Jesus sets His name above all other names as well as setting Him to a position in which every knee will bow to Him, as in worship Him. So if we are to worship only God then why did God set Jesus as the one to be worshiped.

Jesus isn't worshiped as God, He's worshiped as the Christ, the anointed of God. His God and Father instructs angels to worship Jesus.