The Trinity

[Searching For Truth]

God the Father, God the Son(Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit but they are all one.

God is the alpha and omega, He has no beginning no end no mother no father omnipotent and omnipresent. (We all agree on this I'm sure)

So when Jesus(God) was on earth was he still omnipresent?

The Bible also gives Jesus a genealogy 2 different account these to account only have 1 name in common(confusion on the genealogy) but never the less does this indicate that God has a genealogy? Jesus is God correct? How could this be? God has no beginning and no end!! so how is this explained?

So When Jesus(God) was crucified and died for our sins That means God died and had an end, Then resurrected Giving him a new beginning. but he never had an old beginning because he is the beginning. Again how is this explained?

Why doesn't Jesus ever claim to be God? Why doesn't Jesus ever say to worship him?

 

[Cjwinnit]

Phillippians chapter 2:5 - 11

 

[Searching For Truth]

[SIZE=-1]1 John 5:7, King James Version (KJV)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Father[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], the [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Word[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], and the [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Holy Ghost[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]: and [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]these three are one[/SIZE][SIZE=-1].

were do we get Father, Son, Holy Ghost???
[/SIZE]

 

[hytdhtd]

Bump

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

[SIZE=-1]1 John 5:7, King James Version (KJV)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Father[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], the [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Word[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], and the [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Holy Ghost[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]: and [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]these three are one[/SIZE][SIZE=-1].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]were do we get Father, Son, Holy Ghost???[/SIZE]

2 Cor 13:14 perhaps? The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. (2Co 13:14 NKJ) definitions of the trinity are usually better explained by using undisputed texts of the bible, rather then ones who inclusion is easily questioned!

 

[twin1954]

2 Cor 13:14 perhaps? The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.(2Co 13:14 NKJ) definitions of the trinity are usually better explained by using undisputed texts of the bible, rather then ones who inclusion is easily questioned!

You can find all three present at the baptism of Christ: Christ is there, the Father speaks from Heaven, and the Spirit decends as a dove.

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

God the Father, God the Son(Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit but they are all one.

As soon as you read the word 'but' you just know this post is going to be in error. The bible teaches that God is one in being, Deut 6:4. To be more accurate the Elohiym (plural) is one! So God is one being, however there are three persons who are divine presented to us in the bible. Hence we say that God is one being, and that there are three person who are that one being.

God is the alpha and omega, He has no beginning no end no mother no father omnipotent and omnipresent. (We all agree on this I'm sure)

So when Jesus(God) was on earth was he still omnipresent?

There is some discusion on that point in histroical theology, but Phil 2:6-7 explain that in the incarnation God the son choose not to continuely excercise all his divine perogatives.

The Bible also gives Jesus a genealogy 2 different account these to account only have 1 name in common(confusion on the genealogy) but never the less does this indicate that God has a genealogy?

Again, I wonder if you have noticed that one geneology works back from Christ, and the other works forwards towards Christ, one is concerned with establish his line of ancestry , and the other traces his line to the throne of David.

As for there only being one name the same - I don't think you can have possibly read the geneologies in Matt 1 and Luke 3, they don't diverge until after David - then they come back together in Joseph. There are far more names in common then you give credit to!

Jesus is God correct? How could this be? God has no beginning and no end!! so how is this explained?

No Jesus is the human name given to the incarnate son of God. The point being that God entered into our human condition in the person of the Son. He became a man - again i would refer you to Phil 2:6-7

So When Jesus(God) was crucified and died for our sins That means God died and had an end,

Since when has physical death been an end? The bible never discribes it in that sense. By becoming Human, whilst retaining his divinity it became possible for the Son to enter into the condition of death as a man. Immediately he went to paradise to be with his father, which is a continuation! Death is a transition, it is not an end!

Then resurrected Giving him a new beginning. but he never had an old beginning because he is the beginning. Again how is this explained?

Again, arguementation full of catagory errors. You might notice that his resurrection boby was not a new beginning, but again a continuation, for the grave was empty. The resurrection body was the same body that lie inj the grave, only glorified.

Why doesn't Jesus ever claim to be God?

He does, you just need eyes to see it. The jews he lived amongst certainly heard him claim divinity! They tried to stone him for that, they convicted him on that charge in the end!

Why doesn't Jesus ever say to worship him?

Because he came to reveal the Father, he does however receive worship without rebuke to those worshipping him.

 

[Searching For Truth]

He does, you just need eyes to see it. The jews he lived amongst certainly heard him claim divinity! They tried to stone him for that, they convicted him on that charge in the end!

He claimed to be the Son of God NEVER God himself.

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

He does, you just need eyes to see it. The jews he lived amongst certainly heard him claim divinity! They tried to stone him for that, they convicted him on that charge in the end!

He claimed to be the Son of God NEVER God himself.

Again we see a catagory, if you mean did he ever claim to be the father, then of course you are right, because he is not the father. But he did claim to be God. John 10:30! Notice that the jews respond that thye are trying to stone him because he was claiming to be God. John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." (Joh 10:33 NKJ)

Nor was this the first time he claimed to be God either. In Is 6 we see Isaiah speaking to one who he calls Yahweh, and yet this one does not correct Isaiah, then John tells us John 12:37-41 that this is the preincarnate son, not the father whom Isaiah is speaking to.

The scriptures bear adequate testimony to the deity of Christ Jesus from Gen to Rev

 

[Searching For Truth]

Again we see a catagory, if you mean did he ever claim to be the father, then of course you are right, because he is not the father. But he did claim to be God. John 10:30! Notice that the jews respond that thye are trying to stone him because he was claiming to be God. John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."(Joh 10:33 NKJ)

Nor was this the first time he claimed to be God either. In Is 6 we see Isaiah speaking to one who he calls Yahweh, and yet this one does not correct Isaiah, then John tells us John 12:37-41 that this is the preincarnate son, not the father whom Isaiah is speaking to.

The scriptures bear adequate testimony to the deity of Christ Jesus from Gen to Rev

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. In this verse the Jews are are making false accusations because they were looking for a reason to stone Jesus he does NOT reply to them that yes he is God.

Isaiah 6:1-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


nowhere in Isaiah 6 do I see Yahweh and from my understanding Isaiah is talking to God throughout the whole chapter. (?)

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. In this verse the Jews are are making false accusations because they were looking for a reason to stone Jesus he does NOT reply to them that yes he is God.

Really, so Jesus I and the fathera re one! they Jews try to stone for him blasphemy, and what does he say?

Does he say "wait a minute you misunderstand me, let me explain?" No, he most certainly does not, and he does not because they rightly understood what he was claiming. Just read on in the passage;

John 10:38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe1 that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

He is saying he is God!​

​

​

Isaiah 6:1-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


nowhere in Isaiah 6 do I see Yahweh and from my understanding Isaiah is talking to God throughout the whole chapter. (?)

Then you obviously didn't look up John's explanation of it that I provided the refrence for!

I wonder my freind, are you really search of the truth as your name suggests, because you seem very resistent to it. It is simply impossible to honestly study the bible and come to any other consluion then that Jesus Christ is God the son

 

[Searching For Truth]

[/color][/color]

Really, so Jesus I and the fathera re one! they Jews try to stone for him blasphemy, and what does he say?

Does he say "wait a minute you misunderstand me, let me explain?" No, he most certainly does not, and he does not because they rightly understood what he was claiming. Just read on in the passage;

John 10:38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe1 that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

He is saying he is God!​

[/color][/color]

Then you obviously didn't look up John's explanation of it that I provided the refrence for!

I wonder my freind, are you really search of the truth as your name suggests, because you seem very resistent to it. It is simply impossible to honestly study the bible and come to any other consluion then that Jesus Christ is God the son

John 12:37-41

King James Version (KJV)

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.


again I don't see Jesus claiming to be God in any way here nor do I even see John saying Jesus Christ is God.


Christians claim Jesus is God and I say prove it. I believe there is only 1 God.and that Jesus is a son of God just as all his children are sons and daughters of God

 

[Searching For Truth]

John 10:38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe1 that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

Jesus is clearly stating here that God is in is heart and he is in Gods heart. When we get saved do we not say we have God in our heart?(we have God in us) He doesn't say I am God and he is me, or He is the Father I am the Son and we are One in the same or anything of that nature. You question my intention and I will tell you I believe that there is 1 God and 1 Jesus there will never be another like Jesus. His birth is witness to that. what I am trying to understand is why its taught that Jesus is God when Jesus himself NEVER claim to be God!

I'm not asking for a miracle here I'm simply asking for 1 verse from the bible were jesus claims he is God or even that we should worship him as God. 1 out of thousands of verses to back up your claim is all I'm asking.

How will Jesus be sitting on the right hand side of his father if they are one in the same?

 

[57Logos]

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was I am.
John 8:58
I know of a translation that states that Jesus said I have been, only problem is if He had say this the Jews would not have tried to stone Him(John 8:59), because when Jesus said I am, He meant He was God (Exodus 3:14-16).

Isaiah 48:16-17
16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Here in this passage we see all Three members of the Trinity.

As for Jesus as God being dead for three days in the grave, meaning He had an ending. First Jesus died physically in that His Spirit departed from His body, and secondly, He died spiritually in that for three days He was separated from the Father (Psalms 16:10-11; Acts 2:25-36). These three days Jesus by His Spirit did not cease but by His own power, Peter states that He preached to the spirits in prison (I Peter 3:18-19).


When Jesus asked the rich young ruler why did he call Him good (Matthew 19:17), He was stating yes I am good and only God is good. For Jesus calls Himself the Good Shepherd (John 10:11)

But we know Jesus is the Word and the Word was with God in the beginning and was God (John 1:1-4, 14-18; 5:39). So yes the verse that Tertullian (200AD) and Cyprian (250AD) quoted long before Priscillian supposedly added it (350AD) refers to Jesus as the Word:
I John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these thee are one.

For God purchase us with His own Blood (Acts 20:28) this happen when the Lord came to His Temple (Malachi 3:1).

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

John 12:37-41

King James Version (KJV)

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.


again I don't see Jesus claiming to be God in any way here nor do I even see John saying Jesus Christ is God.

Then I you simply are not reading the text in an unbiased way, who is John speaking about in context when he says "when he saw his glory" v41?

John 12:36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them. 37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, (Joh 12:36 NKJ)

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

John 10:38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe1 that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

Jesus is clearly stating here that God is in is heart and he is in Gods heart.

Yet the word 'heart' or any implication of such is entirely alien to the context, and the text itself! This is what one call eisegesis, as one interprolates the text to make it fit with their own world view.

When we get saved do we not say we have God in our heart?(we have God in us)

Those whose language is imprecise may well say that!

He doesn't say I am God and he is me, or He is the Father I am the Son and we are One in the same or anything of that nature.

Why would he, when he has already said that he is God, v30, and the people he is speaking to have correctly understood his claim!

You question my intention and I will tell you I believe that there is 1 God and 1 Jesus there will never be another like Jesus. His birth is witness to that. what I am trying to understand is why its taught that Jesus is God when Jesus himself NEVER claim to be God!

And I am saying that I cannot understand how one who is search for truth would put such narrow boundaries upon the criteria for assessing evidence. Why do you limit it to the words of Jesus spoken in his life. It can only be because you wish to ignore the weight of biblical evidence that contradicts what you want to believe about the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1 for example is clear:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Notice what is being said, whatever beginning you can think of, the Logos was there, and he was 'face to face' with ie had equalitity with the father, and in his own essense was divine.

Now you may say that isn't from the mouth of Jesus himself, but again that shows a huge misuderstanding as the term Logos, or word, demands we understand that Jesus Christ is the revelation of the father, ie all scripture came through him.

I'm not asking for a miracle here I'm simply asking for 1 verse from the bible were jesus claims he is God or even that we should worship him as God. 1 out of thousands of verses to back up your claim is all I'm asking.

And one seeking truth does not limit arbitarily the avenues of exploration to avoid evidence does one?

The simple fact is I have a supplied a text in which Jesus says he is one with the father, and you refuse to accept it. I have also shown you a text where it is clear that John identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as the one speaking to Isaiah in the temple in Is 6 and again you will not accept it - what more do you want me to do my friend? What texts would you accept.

Will accept that Thomas calling him, 'my lord and my God' (do you know the granville sharpe rule in relation to Greek?) and the fact that Jesus did not correct him as evidence - John 20:28?

Will you accept Jesus taking the coovenant name of God, "I AM" for his own name John 8:58?

Will you accept that only God can forgive sin, yet Jesus forgave sin, in that action is am implicit statement of his deity!

Within the gsople themselves there is so much evidence that Jesus Christ is divine, within the epsitles there is so much more, and with the entire bible the evidence is overwhelming. Or will only accept "I am theos" as proof?

How will Jesus be sitting on the right hand side of his father if they are one in the same?

Again it is statements like this that make me question how hard you are trying to understand the christain doctrine of the trinity because my very first words on this thread explained that God is one being, but that there are three persons who are God. It seems to me you have a predetermined view of what monothiesm must mean, and that you are not prepared to accept the christain understanding of monothiesm. I am not saying you have to agree with it, but you at least have to try and understand what we are saying if you wish this discusion to be in anyway meaningful my friend

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

Christians claim Jesus is God and I say prove it. I believe there is only 1 God.and that Jesus is a son of God just as all his children are sons and daughters of God

Ok, this is your chance to prove you want to reason with me on this my freind.

1) Who is the Psalmist talking about in Psalm 102:25-27?

Yahweh right?

Then why in Hebrews 1:8-12 does the writer tell us this these words were written in refernce to the son?

2) How do you understand and translate these words?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

3) Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Was paul mistaken here when he refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as "our great God and Savior"

4) 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: Is Peter also confused? These are the too leading apostles, have they got it wrong?

If you would prefer we can discuss the underlying Greek of these last two verses I have quoted to establish that the both nouns "God" and "Savior" must be applied to the same person, the person who is in focus, and clearly in both case that is the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Reformed Baptist 1689]

Bump - are you still around searching for truth?

 

[Hupomone10]

Dear SearchingforTruth,

What are you really searching for? What is the particular point that has you taking what looks like an argumentative stance?

Curious,
H.

 

[Searching For Truth]

Still around, haven't been to the site lately. seeing as how this was getting to be a bit argumentative and how I was trying to disprove every point that was made I felt it best to just leave things alone and do more studying. I am far from a book scholar actually I'm a high school drop out. I will be straight forward. I was brought up in a free will baptist church in V.A.beach I went to there school until 8th grade. church Sunday morning Sunday night Wednesday nights and many other church events throughout the year. It was as extreme as Ive personally seen any church to be. people were Dedicated into putting the FEAR OF GOD in the congregation and the children. Then in 8th grade we moved to MA and I went to a public school and we started going to a non denominational church. this church had rock bands rap groups had parties and really had good times. there was very little emphasis on FEARING GOD. they were very easy going dress how you want just a fun comfortable atmosphere. nothing like the free will baptist were men couldn't have long hair or wear shorts and women couldn't have short hair or wear pants, and everything had to cover below the knee, and any form of music other than what they sang was evil. Then at 16 I moved again to NC and went to a few different church's. one I went to people were shaking and yelling falling on the floor. I said whoa what is going on here, then I started talking to people who were telling me about the pastor laying hands on other people to heal or help them. then this other church people are speaking in tongues. So by 17 I am totally confused and SCARED TO DEATH of dying and going to hell. all these church's preached basically the same theory of God the father Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost, the trinity, and that Jesus came and died for our sins. but they all went about things in a different manner. at 17 I pretty much quit going to church's and got into doing the worldly things that I was now surrounded with partying, girls, alcohol etc.etc. and just said to myself I have been baptized I'm born again I believe Jesus died for my sins, so Hopefully when I die I will go to heaven. Then 3 yrs ago when I was 31 my Dad who was a firm Christian very spiritual man in my opinion. was diagnosed with liver cancer, A God fearing man who didn't drink, smoke, do drugs, or anything of that nature for as long as I was alive was now given less than 6 months to live. for 3 months I was with him day in and day out and I watched him go crazy over his spirituality and had God forgiven him. it was such torture the way his mind was thinking and what he would talk to me about. he felt that God was punishing him and just didn't understand why this was happening to him at 52 yrs of age. I spent many nights questioning God myself, then I just said you know what, God is Good the Devil is Evil and there is no way God could have anything to do with what is happening to my Dad. I told my Dad how I felt and explained that the bible says God allows these things to happen, but i don't think he does these things to us as punishment. I told him what is happening to him is because of the evil in the world and our surroundings, thats why there are all these disease and terrible things surrounding us. after many hours of these talks my Dad seem to be at peace. Honestly I was just telling him what I felt in my heart I didn't have anything in scripture to back up anything I was saying except that God is Good and he allows us free will. on the 3rd month after being diagnosed I held my Dads head in my hands while he gasped and fought for his last breath and he died. Last thing I said was Dad are you positive your going to heaven? he couldn't even speak but he looked me straight in my eyes and slightly motioned yes. I told him I love Him and he laid his head over and died.

after this I was pretty angry with God and life in general. then I had a talk with a cousin who said you know religion is man made. the only important thing is your relationship with God, that is it. and that statement changed my life. I lost all the anger in my heart and said to myself anything that is man made has error nothing done by mans hands is perfect. so religion is bogus just believe in God and have faith in him. I was done with religion. I always spread the word that God loves us and people always would say "you should be a minister or something" I found that funny because I was done with religion and just Believe in and Love God.

Then I came across a video one day that was disproving Christianity, Jesus, or anything the Bible says. this video really open my eyes to the possibility that we all have been had. about the same time I came across some other videos by a man named Ahmed Deedat, a Muslim. This man is a Muslim scholar of the Bible, and seems to know the Bible better than any pastor I had ever come across. he has debates with some of the most well known Christian pastors in the world. No one seem to be able to dis credit Mr. Deedat or what he was saying. so this put more doubt in my mind about some things but brought assurance to others. so being from a baptist background I found this site and thought id ask some of the same questions he posed to the Christians here and see what kind of replies I would get. and see if maybe I could get a clearer picture of Christianity/Religion

I'm no saint no angel I still live what one might consider a worldly lifestyle but I do believe in God and Jesus I'm not sure I know the truth about the history of Jesus but I do know I don't want to go to hells fire!!!! as if life isn't hellish enough.

So I basically quit replying because I don't want to seem like an atheist, or like I'm trying to change anyone else opinions or teach or anything I honestly was just looking for answers..