The Trinity

[Hupomone10]

It is not something you or anyone understands. It is accepted by faith because that is what the bibe teaches.

In John 1:1 it reads;

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In verse 14 it reads;
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word was with God, The word was God, the Word was made flesh. Jesus was that flesh and that means Jesus is God.

Searching for truth,

I would like to see your response to the brother's post here, and the verse. It's a hard one to misinterpret and a hard one to get around. If we find ourselves wanting to get around it, doesn't that reveal that we have a motivation and agenda to do so even if we don't realize it?

I'm interested in your response to the verse. I remember one time a woman in an AA meeting who said she wanted to find God to let him help her with not drinking, and she kept asking "but where IS He?" No matter what answer was given, and there were many good answers, for in an AA discussion meeting everyone takes turns, keeps it short, and gives their thoughts on it. But every time, she came back and just restated her initial question "where IS He?"

She was convinced in her own mind that God was nowhere to be found if He didn't reveal Himself directly to her and talk audibly to her. The problem wasn't with God's lack of existence or failure to reveal Himself; the problem was with her faulty thinking and determined efforts to support it.

H.

 

[Searching For Truth]

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Yet the word 'heart' or any implication of such is entirely alien to the context, and the text itself! This is what one call eisegesis, as one interprolates the text to make it fit with their own world view.



Those whose language is imprecise may well say that!



Why would he, when he has already said that he is God, v30, and the people he is speaking to have correctly understood his claim!



And I am saying that I cannot understand how one who is search for truth would put such narrow boundaries upon the criteria for assessing evidence. Why do you limit it to the words of Jesus spoken in his life. It can only be because you wish to ignore the weight of biblical evidence that contradicts what you want to believe about the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1 for example is clear:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Notice what is being said, whatever beginning you can think of, the Logos was there, and he was 'face to face' with ie had equalitity with the father, and in his own essense was divine.

Now you may say that isn't from the mouth of Jesus himself, but again that shows a huge misuderstanding as the term Logos, or word, demands we understand that Jesus Christ is the revelation of the father, ie all scripture came through him.

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And one seeking truth does not limit arbitarily the avenues of exploration to avoid evidence does one?

The simple fact is I have a supplied a text in which Jesus says he is one with the father, and you refuse to accept it. I have also shown you a text where it is clear that John identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as the one speaking to Isaiah in the temple in Is 6 and again you will not accept it - what more do you want me to do my friend? What texts would you accept.

Will accept that Thomas calling him, 'my lord and my God' (do you know the granville sharpe rule in relation to Greek?) and the fact that Jesus did not correct him as evidence - John 20:28?

Will you accept Jesus taking the coovenant name of God, "I AM" for his own name John 8:58?

Will you accept that only God can forgive sin, yet Jesus forgave sin, in that action is am implicit statement of his deity!

Within the gsople themselves there is so much evidence that Jesus Christ is divine, within the epsitles there is so much more, and with the entire bible the evidence is overwhelming. Or will only accept "I am theos" as proof?



Again it is statements like this that make me question how hard you are trying to understand the christain doctrine of the trinity because my very first words on this thread explained that God is one being, but that there are three persons who are God. It seems to me you have a predetermined view of what monothiesm must mean, and that you are not prepared to accept the christain understanding of monothiesm. I am not saying you have to agree with it, but you at least have to try and understand what we are saying if you wish this discusion to be in anyway meaningful my friend

Ok, this is your chance to prove you want to reason with me on this my freind.

1) Who is the Psalmist talking about in Psalm 102:25-27?

Yahweh right?

Then why in Hebrews 1:8-12 does the writer tell us this these words were written in refernce to the son?

2) How do you understand and translate these words?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

3) Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Was paul mistaken here when he refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as "our great God and Savior"

4) 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: Is Peter also confused? These are the too leading apostles, have they got it wrong?

If you would prefer we can discuss the underlying Greek of these last two verses I have quoted to establish that the both nouns "God" and "Savior" must be applied to the same person, the person who is in focus, and clearly in both case that is the Lord Jesus Christ

Let me set the record straight!

1) I am not refusing to interact with the verses you gave! Indeed I provided a explanation for them; I clearly stated that these relate to the role that God the son took on in his incarnation. So that suggestion that I am not interacting with your refernces in incorrect.

2) My comments of your setting scripture against scriptures are based on your refusal to address the texts I provided on posts 16 and 17 on this very threads. Post that you refused to answer, and excused themself from addressing.



So you keep saying, but yet you have not even accepted the explanation of the trinity as I posted it in the first thread as being what Christains actually believe. Notice I did not say you accepted it as truth, but simply that you accepte it as our definition of our own monothiesm - instead you continue to think that the only concept of monothiesm that is at all possible is the one held by Islam.



What does the word "form" mean in your mind? Do you read Greek? The word is "morphe" it has the sense of 'express image' it is more then simply is like God, or made in the image of God. It means 'just like' so the verse is actually saying that the son is just like the father, ie he is the same as the father.

What, that is a totally unsupportable jump in logic my freind. Nowhere does the text say Jesus was created, this again proves that you are not taking things in context, what does John 1:1 says, it says, in the beginning was the word, ie whatever beginning you can thinking of, the son alreday was, he is the beginning and the end Rev 22:13. So it simple cannot mean what you put on the text, but again you must insist upon it meaing that because you simply are not prepared to accept waht it is actually saying.

Trace thr progression of events through.

One who is like the father humbles himself, and submits to the father for the sake of our redemption, as a result of achieving that goal, the father gives him back the glory he once held.

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Here again we see your error exposed, you refuse to think of God in the context of Father, Son and Spirit, the reference is to the father clearly.




Why is that? Where does that problem come from? it all stems from a fundemental failure to appreciate what Christains have always taught, that God is one being, and that there are three persons who are that one being. Now can we fully rationalise that, no we cannot! If we could fully comnprehend God then he would be less then us, and therefore not God at all - that is part of the error of Islam, that make God so very small in the demands to rationalise monothiesm. They fall in to catagory error, which is exactly what you fall into as well. Being and Person are different catagories of existence - they are not interchnageable terms, though sadly many do not use language as craefully as perhaps they should today. I explained all this many days ago to you and again I am saddened that you failed to repsond to that post.

My freind, I have worked through so much that you have said, at a great cost of time, now will you address the texts I have presented to you in posts 16 and 17 of this very thread, or are we done here?

My sincere apologies I didn't intentionally not respond to your responses. I will just as soon as I get back on my computer. Thank you for taking the time again I'm sorry I haven't responded... I will.

 

[AvgJoe]

Why doesn't Jesus ever claim to be God? Why doesn't Jesus ever say to worship him?

Jesus does claim to be God, many times. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence "I am God" but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58).

When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,' 'I AM has sent me to you,' (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Right after this the Jews picked up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God." Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own and the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus' own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God.

Also, Jesus received worship (Matthew 2:2, 14:33, 28:9; John 9:35-38). Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship and never told those who were worshipping Him to stop, thus, again, claiming to be God.

 

[Searching For Truth]

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Yet the word 'heart' or any implication of such is entirely alien to the context, and the text itself! This is what one call eisegesis, as one interprolates the text to make it fit with their own world view.
(Ok I will agree heart is alien BUT so is the word God he doesnt say he is God therefor we must both be eisegesis as one interprets)


Those whose language is imprecise may well say that!



Why would he, when he has already said that he is God, v30, and the people he is speaking to have correctly understood his claim!
(I missed the part he says he is "God")


And I am saying that I cannot understand how one who is search for truth would put such narrow boundaries upon the criteria for assessing evidence. Why do you limit it to the words of Jesus spoken in his life. It can only be because you wish to ignore the weight of biblical evidence that contradicts what you want to believe about the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1 for example is clear:
(Exactly, If you or I accuse someone of being somebody the first thing you would want to do is hear it from that persons himself, If 1,000 people said that your name was John Batis and that you were the reincarnation of John The Baptist. wouldn't it only make sense to ask you First??? then If you do claim indeed you are John The Baptist reincarnated then one would look for further evidence to back up this claim. BUT if you never say "I am John The Baptist reincarnated" then why should anyone believe you are? You never claim it what does it matter what 1,000's of other people say??? Are you admitting Jesus never claim to be God in those exact words???

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Notice what is being said, whatever beginning you can think of, the Logos was there, and he was 'face to face' with ie had equalitity with the father, and in his own essense was divine.

Now you may say that isn't from the mouth of Jesus himself, but again that shows a huge misuderstanding as the term Logos, or word, demands we understand that Jesus Christ is the revelation of the father, ie all scripture came through him. (Jesus could have been there with God from the beginning. Why do you believe we are demanded that we understand an interpretation. If God wants us to know something he tells us clearly. What do you mean by Logos? Logos are like advertisement or team logos etc.etc.

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And one seeking truth does not limit arbitarily the avenues of exploration to avoid evidence does one?

The simple fact is I have a supplied a text in which Jesus says he is one with the father,(One with the father, NOT equal to the father) and you refuse to accept it. I have also shown you a text where it is clear that John identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as the one speaking to Isaiah in the temple in Is 6 and again you will not accept it - what more do you want me to do my friend? What texts would you accept.

Will accept that Thomas calling him, 'my lord and my God' (do you know the granville sharpe rule in relation to Greek?) and the fact that Jesus did not correct him as evidence - John 20:28? (Jesus correct the men that call him good as says there is but ONE that is good that be the FATHER. So I ask you why did he correct them?)

Will you accept Jesus taking the coovenant name of God, "I AM" for his own name John 8:58? (If God says he is to be called "I Am" why do we call him God? I don't think "I Am" is a reference To name but rather a reference to being. Meaning the same as, always is always was, and always will be.

Will you accept that only God can forgive sin, yet Jesus forgave sin, in that action is am implicit statement of his deity! (Again Jesus says over and over again he can do NOTHING except threw his Father!!! That's HIS words.)

Within the gsople themselves there is so much evidence that Jesus Christ is divine, within the epsitles there is so much more, and with the entire bible the evidence is overwhelming. Or will only accept "I am theos" as proof? (Can Jesus be divine and not be God??? Could the only begotten SON of God be divine???)



Again it is statements like this that make me question how hard you are trying to understand the christain doctrine of the trinity because my very first words on this thread explained that God is one being, but that there are three persons(This type of English makes no sense how can 3 persons be 1 being??? Its either 1 or 3. Now you can say God is unique in that we can never understand his Glory, and that's your choice but I believe God never wanted to be something we can't understand. Ive heard several times on this very forum and I agree God is NOT the cause of confusion, but to think 3 persons is 1 being is very confusing when it doesn't make any common sense.) who are God. It seems to me you have a predetermined view of what monothiesm must mean, and that you are not prepared to accept the christain understanding of monothiesm. I am not saying you have to agree with it, but you at least have to try and understand what we are saying if you wish this discusion to be in anyway meaningful my friend

(If you are telling me that Jesus never said the words I am God but through MANS interpretation of the bible then Christians believe Jesus is God then I cant dispute what one wishes to "BELIEVE" I was just asking for someone to show me were Jesus says DIRECTLY that he is God. Or why Christians believe this doctrine, and you provided plenty of evidence on why you "Believe" but none were Jesus says he is God, From what I can see.)

 

[Hupomone10]

(If you are telling me that Jesus never said the words I am God but through MANS interpretation of the bible then Christians believe Jesus is God then I cant dispute what one wishes to "BELIEVE" I was just asking for someone to show me were Jesus says DIRECTLY that he is God. Or why Christians believe this doctrine, and you provided plenty of evidence on why you "Believe" but none were Jesus says he is God, From what I can see.)

True. So you are welcome to disbelieve it if you wish. Jesus also never said he was a man; so do with that as you wish: whether to assume he is a woman, or maybe a donkey. The Bible never directly says church buildings should be used, and pews; as a matter of fact, it doesn't directly say that songs are to be sung in church, and (worst of all) Jesus didn't talk about conversing on the internet. So, we should probably all stop doing that until we can ask Jesus directly about it.

Jesus never directly says homosexuality is wrong, and he never directly says heterosexuality is right. He never directly addresses pedophelia or sex with animals. He never says drug abuse or smoking is wrong, either. He never says directly that slavery is wrong or that women should have equal rights with men. He never directly says He came to be savior for anyone but the Jews, so it may be that He didn't even come to save a gentile such as yourself, so that's another thing to consider.
Matt 15:24
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus never directly endorses the New Testament scriptures; so if I were you I would put those on the chopping block as well.

I'm sure there are many more to consider using your hermeneutic of things Jesus directly said or didn't say, but this is enough for now.

Blessings,
H.

 

[Searching For Truth]

Ok, this is your chance to prove you want to reason with me on this my freind.

1) Who is the Psalmist talking about in Psalm 102:25-27?
Psalm 102:20-30

King James Version (KJV)

20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
21 To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem;
22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the Lord.
23 He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.



So are you saying when he said "O my God" he is referring to Jesus???



Yahweh right?

Then why in Hebrews 1:8-12 does the writer tell us this these words were written in refernce to the son?

2) How do you understand and translate these words?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
(Sorry I cant translate. I'm just a common English speaking man)

3) Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Was paul mistaken here when he refers to the Lord Jesus Christ as "our great God and Savior" (Could he be speaking of both the Father and the Son?)

4) 2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: Is Peter also confused? These are the too leading apostles, have they got it wrong? (again use of the word and, like jack and jill. He could be using and as to say 2 beings or divinities. Could we be understanding it wrong?)

If you would prefer we can discuss the underlying Greek of these last two verses I have quoted to establish that the both nouns "God" and "Savior" must be applied to the same person, the person who is in focus, and clearly in both case that is the Lord Jesus Christ

Again I don't know Greek only English. I enjoy your perspective and I am not saying I believe I am right or that you are right I am just trying to learn and explore from all perspectives so that I can come to find the truth in what I believe in. Without a doubt I believe in God!!!

 

[Searching For Truth]

True. So you are welcome to disbelieve it if you wish. Jesus also never said he was a man;( to be frank there is no evidence of Jesus period.) so do with that as you wish: whether to assume he is a woman, or maybe a donkey.(I havnt made any assumptions if anything people that claim Jesus is God are making the assumption IF Jesus never claimed it himself) The Bible never directly says church buildings should be used, and pews; as a matter of fact, it doesn't directly say that songs are to be sung in church,(none of these things deal with spirituality so they are not of my concern.) and (worst of all) Jesus didn't talk about conversing on the internet. So, we should probably all stop doing that until we can ask Jesus directly about it.(that is your choice, I didn't make you post)

Jesus never directly says homosexuality is wrong, and he never directly says heterosexuality is right. He never directly addresses pedophelia or sex with animals. He never says drug abuse or smoking is wrong, either. He never says directly that slavery is wrong or that women should have equal rights with men.(if you follow the laws of the bible these things are pretty well covered.) He never directly says He came to be savior for anyone but the Jews, so it may be that He didn't even come to save a gentile such as yourself (we actually agree on this 1 point but fortunately God said He so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son), so that's another thing to consider.(if you choose to consider that then throw your bible away because you have no hope unless your a Jew. or from the house of Israel.)
Matt 15:24
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus never directly endorses the New Testament scriptures; so if I were you I would put those on the chopping block as well.

I'm sure there are many more to consider using your hermeneutic of things Jesus directly said or didn't say, but this is enough for now.


Blessings,
H.

Sorry if I offended you, but to be fair I asked a simple question and you ranted about numerous things that have no relevance to the subject. Peace be with you my friend, I sense some hostility... there is no need for any of that I'm just having friendly conversation.

 

[Hupomone10]

Sorry if I offended you, but to be fair I asked a simple question and you ranted about numerous things that have no relevance to the subject. Peace be with you my friend, I sense some hostility... there is no need for any of that I'm just having friendly conversation.

I'm sorry my friendly sarcasm came across as hostility. I didn't mean it to be. I forgot, with my sarcasm I need to put smiley faces or they are sometimes misunderstood.

My point is just that simply because Jesus doesn't directly state something, it doesn't mean he doesn't address it.

For example, although Jesus doesn't directly address homosexuality, he does address it indirectly by saying that not one jot or tittle of the Law will be abolished until all things be fulfilled, and that He didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Law states that homosexuality is a sin punishable by death. Jesus by endorsing all of the Law of Moses, is thereby endorsing the fact that homosexuality is a sin.

My sarcasm was speaking to the hermeneutic you have selected to use to determine Jesus' deity or not. I'm merely pointing out that the same logic would see all the issues I mentioned with equal validity. Do you deny this? The point is, you have adopted a questionable hermeneutic. That might not seem obvious when applying it only to the one question you raised; but simply follow that road to the end of the road and see where it leads. Others would be able to talk with you and argue any of the things I've mentioned, even though you might not believe them, with equal force simply because Jesus didn't directly address them.

That's all. Friends? Hope so, and please consider the point I'm making rather than charging hostility and dismissing it.

Blessings,
H.

 

[Searching For Truth]

It is not something you or anyone understands. It is accepted by faith because that is what the bibe teaches.

In John 1:1 it reads;

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (here we have the word "with" Just like when I am at home and my son is here my son is WITH me then it says and the Word was God. So is this telling us that in the beginning was the word the Son and God?)

In verse 14 it reads;
And the Word(That was WITH God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father(The Son that was WITH God from the beginning),) full of grace and truth.

The Word was with God, The word was God, the Word (That was with God) was made flesh. Jesus was that flesh and that means Jesus is God.(Or does it mean Jesus was with God from the beginning and took on flesh of man so that he could fulfill the prophecy while yet was still Divine)

Searching for truth,

I would like to see your response to the brother's post here, and the verse. It's a hard one to misinterpret and a hard one to get around. If we find ourselves wanting to get around it, doesn't that reveal that we have a motivation and agenda to do so even if we don't realize it? (I have no motive but to learn, in order to do so I feel one must take the words literal, and not just accepts mans interpretation of what he thinks or his church told him etc.etc. I will post this verse again this is Jesus Himself speaking.

Luke 18:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.


That is Jesus words from his own mouth when he says 1 doesn't he mean 1? If he and God are one, why is he asking these men "Why callest thou me good?" Is this a trick question? If so Then why does he go on to say "Noone is good, save ONE, that is, GOD" He gives them the answer. So now I ask any of you, Is Jesus misleading these men or telling them a lie???





I'm interested in your response to the verse. I remember one time a woman in an AA meeting who said she wanted to find God to let him help her with not drinking, and she kept asking "but where IS He?" No matter what answer was given, and there were many good answers, for in an AA discussion meeting everyone takes turns, keeps it short, and gives their thoughts on it. But every time, she came back and just restated her initial question "where IS He?"

She was convinced in her own mind that God was nowhere to be found if He didn't reveal Himself directly to her and talk audibly to her. The problem wasn't with God's lack of existence or failure to reveal Himself; the problem was with her faulty thinking and determined efforts to support it.

H.

Please understand I am not here to teach or convert!!! I want to learn, I want to conversate and see other perspectives and come to an understanding of the word. in order to do so I must come with questions and answers to your questions. If I just agree with what one says there is nothing to be learned. I hope everyone understand. PLEASE do NOT think I am here to convert or teach!!! I enjoy the conversation and seeing all perspectives!!!

 

[Searching For Truth]

I'm sorry my friendly sarcasm came across as hostility. I didn't mean it to be. I forgot, with my sarcasm I need to put smiley faces or they are sometimes misunderstood.

My point is just that simply because Jesus doesn't directly state something, it doesn't mean he doesn't address it.

For example, although Jesus doesn't directly address homosexuality, he does address it indirectly by saying that not one jot or tittle of the Law will be abolished until all things be fulfilled, and that He didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Law states that homosexuality is a sin punishable by death. Jesus by endorsing all of the Law of Moses, is thereby endorsing the fact that homosexuality is a sin.

My sarcasm was speaking to the hermeneutic you have selected to use to determine Jesus' deity or not. I'm merely pointing out that the same logic would see all the issues I mentioned with equal validity. Do you deny this? The point is, you have adopted a questionable hermeneutic. That might not seem obvious when applying it only to the one question you raised; but simply follow that road to the end of the road and see where it leads. Others would be able to talk with you and argue any of the things I've mentioned, even though you might not believe them, with equal force simply because Jesus didn't directly address them.

That's all. Friends? Hope so, and please consider the point I'm making rather than charging hostility and dismissing it.

Blessings,
H.

No harm taken. My thing is that the issue of is Jesus God is a very important issue in spirituality, My whole life I believe that Jesus was God, I never researched it just took for granted that was what I had been taught and that was what I believed. But when confronted with some serious questions as to is this truly the case it cause me to question what I believe. Now I talk to everyone I cross paths with and come on this forum and discuss it I just want to learn more and more. But please understand I am not here trying to convert or teach and I let anyone I speak to know that, I just bring up scripture so that we can all get a better understanding, and if you already understand and know what it says then be firm in your belief if you choose, if you choose to try and help me to see then thanks if not no problem But please NO ONE take offense to what I say

 

[His_disciple3]

Please understand I am not here to teach or convert!!! I want to learn, I want to conversate and see other perspectives and come to an understanding of the word. in order to do so I must come with questions and answers to your questions. If I just agree with what one says there is nothing to be learned. I hope everyone understand. PLEASE do NOT think I am here to convert or teach!!! I enjoy the conversation and seeing all perspectives!!!

if you are here to learn then listen to what people are saying and quit post scriptures and putting you interpretation in with those scriptures, this is the second thread you have started questioning the diety of Christ!

 

[Searching For Truth]

if you are here to learn then listen to what people are saying and quit post scriptures and putting you interpretation in with those scriptures, this is the second thread you have started questioning the diety of Christ!

To listen and accept which is really what your saying, is the same as being brain washed, in order to learn one must ask questions and put forth an input!

 

[Ariztophanes]

I'd say, none of us believes the Trinity because we understand it; we believe it because the Bible teaches it. We all have our opinions (and they probably all stink, as on THIS side we have finite understanding), but here are mine:

Jesus set aside many of his God traits to become human; that's what certain scriptures teach ("humbled himself as a man"...)

Jesus's life as a man began at birth. Jesus's life as God was from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus's resurrection was not a new beginning. He still bore the scars of crucifixion. Only WE will get a new beginning.

The two genealogies are for Mary and Joseph, his earthly parents, to prove that he fulfilled the prophecies that the Messiah come from the line of David, and to prove that he was not a descendant of Saul, as it was prophesied that no descendant of Saul would ever be king.

Jesus was not the king of this earth until he paid the price to redeem it. I don't think he ever refused worship, but it was not until he had paid for our souls that anyone OWED him worship.

 

[His_disciple3]

To listen and accept which is really what your saying, is the same as being brain washed, in order to learn one must ask questions and put forth an input!

no you learn by asking questions, then listening to the answers. you teach by putting forth an input. I can't force you to accept anything, but this is not an open forum it is a Christian forum, you are the one that came into a Christian forum, saying that you are here to learn, which you know as well as me that is not your intentions, for this is your second thread teaching against the deity of Christ

 

[Ariztophanes]

Why doesn't Jesus ever say to worship him?

Because, as God, if he were to COMMAND you to, you would have no choice. (Sorry, Calvinists He GIVES us this choice to determine who are His and who are not.

Satan does not give a choice. He'd likely grab you in a cave, and threaten to kill you if you did not obey his commands... BTW, read any Hadith lately?

 

[Searching For Truth]

Because, as God, if he were to COMMAND you to, you would have no choice. (Sorry, Calvinists He GIVES us this choice to determine who are His and who are not.

Satan does not give a choice. He'd likely grab you in a cave, and threaten to kill you if you did not obey his commands... BTW, read any Hadith lately?

Ok I worded it wrong, Why doesn't Jesus ever say for salvation one must worship him?

 

[Hammster]

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[Hammster]

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