The Trinity

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

You don't believe in witchcraft? The Bible does. How come you don't?

It's not that I do or a don't. It's that you believe witchcraft actually tells us something truthful. Since when does witchcraft lead to any true knowledge?

 

[LutheranMafia]

It's not that I do or a don't. It's that you believe witchcraft actually tells us something truthful. Since when does witchcraft lead to any true knowledge?

You mean like in 1 Samuel 28, where Saul goes to the witch of Endor to summon the ghost of Samuel?


.

 

[Aibrean]

I think that this belief goes hand in hand with the inability of 99% of Christian to give any meaningful distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Father. While they are not in reality interchangeable, in most Christian's minds they effectively are.

It's more of, by definition, how does a soul differ from a spirit (and I don't mean spirit like a ghost).

 

[spiritwarrior37]

When the subject of the Trinity comes up, Christians either have only a vague notion, or give long winded yet diluted and confusing explanations. I think the explanation is very simple:

We are all made in the image of God which means that we have 3 parts just like God does: soul, spirit and body. The soul corresponds to the Holy Father, the spirit to the Holy Spirit, and the body corresponds to the Son.

The extrapolation from man to God is easier to do, rather than trying to start with God, who is ultimately unknowable. But even at this, the distinction between soul and spirit is something that is very poorly understood, if at all, by the great majority of people. In that regard I think that the extrapolation from God to man reveals more:

The Holy Father is the alpha and the omega, unchanging and eternally the same. Similarly, Origen, one of the most important Church fathers of 2nd and 3rd century, stated that all souls are uncreated and that only spirits are created. The Holy Spirits is not quite the same as the Holy Father, it does change over time, for example, when Jesus left this world the Holy Spirit underwent a change. "I will send you a Comforter." In other words the role of the Holy Spirit suddenly became more pronounced. Similarly the spirit can go through radical changes, is created and can even be destroyed.

Ecclesiastes 12: 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is not, cannot be destroyed, as you can plainly see. Either you are wrong or scriptures are. My bet is on you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's more of, by definition, how does a soul differ from a spirit (and I don't mean spirit like a ghost).

Young) Matt 14:26 and the disciples having seen Him walking upon the sea, were troubled saying--`It is an apparition/fantasma <5326>,' and from the fear they cried out

Young) Mark 6:49 And they having seen Him walking on the sea, thought [it] to be an apparition/fantasma <5326>, and cried out,

Young Luke 24:36 and as they are speaking these things, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith to them, `Peace--to you;'
37 and being amazed, and becoming affrighted, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit/pneuma <4151>
39 see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.'

5326. phantasma fan'-tas-mah from 5324; (properly concrete) a (mere) show ("phantasm"), i.e. spectre:--spirit.

Strong's Number G5326 matches the Greek &#966;&#8049;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#956;&#945; (phantasma), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

 

[Mikecpking]

It's more of, by definition, how does a soul differ from a spirit (and I don't mean spirit like a ghost).

Very simple.

'Soul' is the whole living man (Gen 2:7) and the spirit is the breath of God that animates us (gen 2:7 again and Ecclesiastes 12:7)

'Soul' is directly linked to our blood (DT 12:23, Lev 17:11) whereas 'spirit' is NEVER linked to the blood. Sometimes these words are used interchangeably, but they are not the same.

I can expand this more if needed.

 

[Mikecpking]

Are you able to give a coherent distinction between spirit and soul, and more importantly between Holy Father and Holy Spirit? I've only come across one person who could actually make a meaningful distinction between the Holy Father and the Holy Spirit. (She was an African-American girl working on her master's in chemcial engineering, and was extremely intelligent).

OK, here is the more coiherent definition:


Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.
Ruah - Pneuma - SpiritThis 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
• for the wind in nature.
• for the nature of God's being ['Spirit of God', 'Holy Spirit']; dynamic, overwhelming, at times completely dominating [Jg 6:34], the root of prophesying [ISam 10:5-6] and abnormal strength [Jg 14:6].
• for demonic activity [ISam 16:14].
• for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
• for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.
Leb - Kardia - Heart
'Leb' is a 'window - word' that looks in at personhood in terms of deepest emotions and from the perspective of intellect and will. 'Leb', in some ways, draws together every spiritual process. It is'conscious spiritual activity'.
It was early recognised that emotions and intense feelings produce physical effects in the heart [slow, quick, intermittent pulse rates, sometimes strong pain]. So it has come to picture the epicentre of the human person as an emotional being. Other bodily organs have been drawn alongside to add other facets to this idea:-
• Kidneys: the unfathomable depths of an individual, centre of emotions that only God can search out and test [Jer 11:20; 12:2; Isa 29:13].
• Bowels: emotions that can be deeply agitated; seething fermenting, troubling [Job 30:27; Lam 1:20].
• Inwards-Belly: emphasising the unique character of human spiritual nature in contrast to the external world [Phil 3:19; Jn 7:38].
• Bones: the basic structural element in man; spiritually and emotionally as
well as physically [Ps 35:10; Pr 3:8], they suffer seismic shock in emotional distress [Jer 23:9].
The other very important emphasis of 'leb' is personhood in terms of their inner direction; the deliberate conscious activity of the will and the responsibility it brings.
What comes from an individuals heart is 'the distinct property of the whole person' making them responsible for it. The 'responsible will' is central to the biblical concept of the 'heart'. Making God's will our own requires a new heart [Ezk 36:26].
Paul in his writings uses 'kardia' with all the senses of the Hebrew 'leb', but enlarges it by the introduction of two other words that emphasis 'will' and ' responsibilities':-
• Mind [nous]: human intellectual capacity [Phil 4:7] which may be good or bad. It may be immoral, vain, corrupt defiled [Rm 1:28; Eph 4:17]. It contains God's law [Rm 7:23] and in a Christian is renewed transforming life [Rm 12:2], imparting the mind of Christ [ICor 2:16].
• Conscience [suneidessis]: human faculty for moral judgment. It can be defiled [ICor 8:7] or pure [ITim 3:9]. It is that consciousness of 'being right within one's heart' [Rm2:15].
So 'leb' is conscious spiritual activity, stressing the sense of responsibility.
Contrast : Nephesh, Ruah, LebIt will be quite clear that 'nephesh', 'ruah', and 'leb' overlap one another at significant points.
The distinctions between 'nephesh' and 'leb' at the higher level of understanding is very difficult. They are often used interchangeably [cf Ex 6:9 with Jg 16:16; Ecc 7:8 with Job 6:11], and yet they are not the same. The distinction is found back at their roots.
The overlap between all three is to be expected when we remember each is considering the whole man from a slightly different angle. Their contrasting stresses may be seen as:-
• Nephesh : instinctive 'animal' activity.
• Leb : conscious spiritual activity.
• Ruah : personhood open to the influence of the nature of God.
'Nephesh' and 'leb' stand in contrast with 'ruah' between them. 'Nephesh' and 'ruah' stress the 'lower' and 'higher' levels of consciousness.

 

[Doveaman]

If God the Father is the Holy Spirit and God the Son is also the Holy Spirit, then God is Father and Son existing as One Holy Spirit, Two Persons existing as One Spirit Being.

Perhaps the closest physical analogy of God as One Spirit Being are Siamese twins:

I'm not saying that the Father and the Son are Siamese twins or that they even look like Siamese twins, I'm just using the physical union of Siamese twins as a physical analogy of the Spirit union of the Father and the Son.

While the physical being of the Siamese twins are restricted by time and space, the Spiritual Being of God is not. But just as each Siamese twin can act independently but not separately because of their physical union, even so the Father and the Son can act independently but not separately because of their Spirit union. The Two exist as One.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

 

[laconicstudent]

If God the Father is the Holy Spirit and God the Son is also the Holy Spirit, then God is Father and Son existing as One Holy Spirit, Two Persons existing as One Spirit Being.

Perhaps the closest physical analogy of God as One Spirit Being are Siamese twins:

I'm not saying that the Father and the Son are Siamese twins or that they even look like Siamese twins, I'm just using the physical union of Siamese twins as a physical analogy of the Spirit union of the Father and the Son.

While the physical being of the Siamese twins are restricted by time and space, the Spiritual Being of God is not. But just as each Siamese twin can act independently but not separately because of their physical union, even so the Father and the Son can act independently but not separately because of their Spirit union. The Two exist as One.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

To be orthodox, you would need siamese triplets, btw.

 

[Zeena]

OK, here is the more coiherent definition:


Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.
Ruah - Pneuma - SpiritThis 'picture - window' into personhood highlights our unique relationship with God.'Ruah' has its roots in the 'wind' which emphasises both its powerful and yet subtle nature. 'Ruah' is used in a number of different contexts:-
• for the wind in nature.
• for the nature of God's being ['Spirit of God', 'Holy Spirit']; dynamic, overwhelming, at times completely dominating [Jg 6:34], the root of prophesying [ISam 10:5-6] and abnormal strength [Jg 14:6].
• for demonic activity [ISam 16:14].
• for the 'principle of life' [akin to 'nephesh' often used interchangeably]. It is the life force present everywhere; independent, universal, it does not die.
• for the vital energy dwelling within each individual, that force which affects temperament.
Human 'ruah' is more than just the natural breath we breathe [which is 'nesama']. There is a vital energy within each person which is the result of the special 'in-breathing' of God; the centre of thoughts, decisions, moods, and is the dimension of personhood most directly open to the influence of God. 'Ruah' particularly stresses:-
• the direction of the will, it is the energy behind willing and acting, that which urges good and evil [Isa 29:24; Ps 51:12].
• the deep emotions; passion [Jg 8:3], grief [Gen 26:35] zeal [Hag 1:14], often seen in the panting of excitement or distress which is different from normal breathing.
• the seat of individual moral qualities and attitudes [Ecc 7:8; Isa 57:15; Num 14:24]. Ezekiel sees the Messianic age as a period when individuals will be permeated by Yahweh's 'ruah' which in turn will renew their own [11; 19; 18:31; 36:26; 39:29]. This is one of the most important words in Paul's vocabulary with his emphasis on regeneration, sanctification, fellowship with God [Gal. 5:22-23 etc].
• the experience of being in touch with God and under God's influence. The human 'ruah' searches out God's ways [Ps 77:7; Isa 26;9], it can be stirred or hardened by God [Jer 51; 11; Dt 2:30].
'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.
Leb - Kardia - Heart
'Leb' is a 'window - word' that looks in at personhood in terms of deepest emotions and from the perspective of intellect and will. 'Leb', in some ways, draws together every spiritual process. It is'conscious spiritual activity'.
It was early recognised that emotions and intense feelings produce physical effects in the heart [slow, quick, intermittent pulse rates, sometimes strong pain]. So it has come to picture the epicentre of the human person as an emotional being. Other bodily organs have been drawn alongside to add other facets to this idea:-
• Kidneys: the unfathomable depths of an individual, centre of emotions that only God can search out and test [Jer 11:20; 12:2; Isa 29:13].
• Bowels: emotions that can be deeply agitated; seething fermenting, troubling [Job 30:27; Lam 1:20].
• Inwards-Belly: emphasising the unique character of human spiritual nature in contrast to the external world [Phil 3:19; Jn 7:38].
• Bones: the basic structural element in man; spiritually and emotionally as
well as physically [Ps 35:10; Pr 3:8], they suffer seismic shock in emotional distress [Jer 23:9].
The other very important emphasis of 'leb' is personhood in terms of their inner direction; the deliberate conscious activity of the will and the responsibility it brings.
What comes from an individuals heart is 'the distinct property of the whole person' making them responsible for it. The 'responsible will' is central to the biblical concept of the 'heart'. Making God's will our own requires a new heart [Ezk 36:26].
Paul in his writings uses 'kardia' with all the senses of the Hebrew 'leb', but enlarges it by the introduction of two other words that emphasis 'will' and ' responsibilities':-
• Mind [nous]: human intellectual capacity [Phil 4:7] which may be good or bad. It may be immoral, vain, corrupt defiled [Rm 1:28; Eph 4:17]. It contains God's law [Rm 7:23] and in a Christian is renewed transforming life [Rm 12:2], imparting the mind of Christ [ICor 2:16].
• Conscience [suneidessis]: human faculty for moral judgment. It can be defiled [ICor 8:7] or pure [ITim 3:9]. It is that consciousness of 'being right within one's heart' [Rm2:15].
So 'leb' is conscious spiritual activity, stressing the sense of responsibility.
Contrast : Nephesh, Ruah, LebIt will be quite clear that 'nephesh', 'ruah', and 'leb' overlap one another at significant points.
The distinctions between 'nephesh' and 'leb' at the higher level of understanding is very difficult. They are often used interchangeably [cf Ex 6:9 with Jg 16:16; Ecc 7:8 with Job 6:11], and yet they are not the same. The distinction is found back at their roots.
The overlap between all three is to be expected when we remember each is considering the whole man from a slightly different angle. Their contrasting stresses may be seen as:-
• Nephesh : instinctive 'animal' activity.
• Leb : conscious spiritual activity.
• Ruah : personhood open to the influence of the nature of God.
'Nephesh' and 'leb' stand in contrast with 'ruah' between them. 'Nephesh' and 'ruah' stress the 'lower' and 'higher' levels of consciousness.

Please, quote your source?

 

[Zeena]

Very simple.

'Soul' is the whole living man (Gen 2:7) and the spirit is the breath of God that animates us (gen 2:7 again and Ecclesiastes 12:7)

'Soul' is directly linked to our blood (DT 12:23, Lev 17:11) whereas 'spirit' is NEVER linked to the blood. Sometimes these words are used interchangeably, but they are not the same.

I can expand this more if needed.

Is not water symbolic of Spirit?

Waters of Shiloah, for example? [Isa 8:6]
Who does this [Shiloah] respresent?
As does water from the Rock, no? [1 Cor 10:4]

1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

 

[Zeena]

Ecclesiastes 12: 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is not, cannot be destroyed, as you can plainly see. Either you are wrong or scriptures are. My bet is on you.

Neither is it [the inbreathed Spirit within us all] corruptible;

1 Peter 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

 

[Mikecpking]

Is not water symbolic of Spirit?

Waters of Shiloah, for example? [Isa 8:6]
Who does this [Shiloah] respresent?
As does water from the Rock, no? [1 Cor 10:4]

1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Hi Zeena,
That is talking about the Holy Spirit, which different from a person's 'ruah'. See my second post for the definitions.

 

[Mikecpking]

Please, quote your source?

This is not an 'online' document, but a scan from my course notes when I did a theology course.

 

[Zeena]

This is not an 'online' document, but a scan from my course notes when I did a theology course.

If you please then, who is the writer therof?

 

[Zeena]

Hi Zeena,
That is talking about the Holy Spirit, which different from a person's 'ruah'. See my second post for the definitions.

I see no difference.

*snip*

'Ruah' presents us with human nature's in interplay with the nature of God. It is stressing a person open to and transmitting the life of God [Rm 8:16; ICor 2:10-11]. It has no physical 'animal' character, [never associated with blood], transcending mere desire or feeling.

*emphasis added*

Psalma 100:3
Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Please explain.

 

[Zeena]

Also, as pertains to the Holy Spirit "never associated with blood";

1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Hi Zeena,
That is talking about the Holy Spirit, which different from a person's 'ruah'. See my second post for the definitions.

Isn't the Holy Spirit Christ's ruah?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Ecclesiastes 12: 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is not, cannot be destroyed, as you can plainly see. Either you are wrong or scriptures are. My bet is on you.

The spirit of the righteous can't be destroyed, but the spirit of the damned will be destroyed.

 

[Zeena]

Isn't the Holy Spirit Christ's ruah?

That is correct

But Jesus has a soul and a body as well, in that He became man for us.