The Trinity

[LittleLambofJesus]

[/indent][/indent][/indent][/indent] Hello LLOJ

These discrepancies are manuscript corruption due to scribal bias (or those that paid the scribe). What else could it be? Here is a another one...
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1 Timothy 3:16

KJV - 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

NASB - 16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

Is "God" the correct translation or "He"? Manuscripts over time have been altered and edited to better conform to extra-biblical doctrines.

I remember awhile back I translated the book of Revelation.
I found so many variances between the greek texts/bible versions, it was like putting together a jigsaw puzzle!

For example, just in Reve 15:3, the last part of this verse is rendered 3 different ways!

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Reve 15:3 And they are singing the song of Moses the bond-servant of the God and the song of the Lambkin saying "great and marvelous the works of Thee Lord! the God the Almighty, just and true the ways of Thee the King of the saints/*ages/*nations.

TexRec) Revelation 15:3 kai adousin thn wdhn mw*sewV *** doulou tou qeou kai thn wdhn tou arniou legonteV megala kai qaumasta ta erga sou kurie o qeoV o pantokratwr dikaiai kai alhqinai ai odoi sou o basileuV twn agiwn

W-H) Revelation 15:3 kai adousin thn wdhn mwusewV tou doulou tou qeou kai thn wdhn tou arniou legonteV megala kai qaumasta ta erga sou kurie o qeoV o pantokratwr dikaiai kai alhqinai ai odoi sou o basileuV twn aiwnwn

ByzMaj) Revelation 15:3 kai adousin thn wdhn mwusewV tou doulou tou qeou kai thn wdhn tou arniou legonteV megala kai qaumasta ta erga sou kurie o qeoV o pantokratwr dikaiai kai alhqinai ai odoi sou o basileuV twn eqnwn

KJV) Revelation 15:3 ....... just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

NASB) Revelation 15:3 .... Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!

ASV) Revelation 15:3 .....righteous and true thou King of the ages.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

That is no difference at all, the soul and spirit are not separate beings from our conscious mind. They are separate personalities that are still part of our unified being. We are all three persons in one being.

Your assertion that my explanation of the Trinity is heretical is based on splitting hairs about a distortion and misunderstanding of what I've said.

We all have three persons in us?

Does anybody agree with LutheranMafia on this?

I'm not splitting hairs- I'm saying that a standard, orthodox view of the human person is not the same as the standard, orthodox view of the Trinity. Does anybody really think so, besides you?

 

[addo]

I like to look at it this way: past, present, future. This is like God. They are all 'time' but yet individual. Present is seen, but future and past are unseen. But even though past, present and future are not the same, they all are 'time'. They all, individually, can be called 'time'.

Actually, I just thought of this right now so it can contain errors, since I didn't think much about it. But at first look, it looks like a good analogy (I think).

 

[Aibrean]

We all have three persons in us?

Does anybody agree with LutheranMafia on this?

I'm not splitting hairs- I'm saying that a standard, orthodox view of the human person is not the same as the standard, orthodox view of the Trinity. Does anybody really think so, besides you?

No. Aren't spirit and soul interchangeable? The body is corporeal it will turn to dust. I'm not sure how it relates.

 

[Zeena]

*snip*
The Holy Father is the alpha and the omega, unchanging and eternally the same. Similarly, Origen, one of the most important Church fathers of 2nd and 3rd century, stated that all souls are uncreated and that only spirits are created. The Holy Spirits is not quite the same as the Holy Father, it does change over time, for example, when Jesus left this world the Holy Spirit underwent a change. "I will send you a Comforter." In other words the role of the Holy Spirit suddenly became more pronounced. Similarly the spirit can go through radical changes, is created and can even be destroyed.

I do not believe the 'spirit' of man is created, for this is contrary to Scriptural revelation.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

 

[LutheranMafia]

We all have three persons in us?

Does anybody agree with LutheranMafia on this?

I'm not splitting hairs- I'm saying that a standard, orthodox view of the human person is not the same as the standard, orthodox view of the Trinity. Does anybody really think so, besides you?

So you do not believe the we have spirits and souls?

 

[LutheranMafia]

No. Aren't spirit and soul interchangeable?

I think that this belief goes hand in hand with the inability of 99% of Christian to give any meaningful distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Father. While they are not in reality interchangeable, in most Christian's minds they effectively are.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So you do not believe the we have spirits and souls?

That's not the question at all.

The question is whether or not our bodies, spirits, and souls are each fully fledged persons in the way that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are fully fledged persons.

 

[addo]

That's not the question at all.

The question is whether or not our bodies, spirits, and souls are each fully fledged persons in the way that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are fully fledged persons.

Would that mean we'd have a personality disorder?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Would that mean we'd have a personality disorder?

Ask LutheranMafia. He's the one who believes in reincarnation.

 

[Zeena]

That's not the question at all.

The question is whether or not our bodies, spirits, and souls are each fully fledged persons in the way that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are fully fledged persons.

I believe a soul inhabiting a body is a fully fledged person, even as I believe a soul disembodied is a fully fledged person..

Revelation 6:9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

But, the body without the the Spirit is dead, for it is the breath of God which gives man life;

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 34:14-15
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Spirit always Lives!

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I believe a soul inhabiting a body is a fully fledged person, even as I believe a soul disembodied is a fully fledged person..

Yes, but the question is, Do you believe that the soul and the body are two fully fledged persons?

 

[Zeena]

Yes, but the question is, Do you believe that the soul and the body are two fully fledged persons?

No. Although, we can walk after the "flesh", this is more indicative of the SOULs reaction of and to the body, rather than the body alone.. Take away the body from the soul, and only the soul lives until the ressurection. The body cannot be animated without a soul. And there would be no soul without the Spirit of God.

It is our soul that lives, and it is our soul that dies.
The body is a tent, fashioned for the Lord the Spirit to infill.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

No. Although, we can walk after the "flesh", this is more indicative of the SOULs reaction of and to the body, rather than the body alone.. Take away the body from the soul, and only the soul lives until the ressurection. The body cannot be animated without a soul. And there would be no soul without the Spirit of God.

It is our soul that lives, and it is our soul that dies.
The body is a tent, fashioned for the Lord the Spirit to infill.

I agree... I think. Although I wouldn't make such a firm distinction between the body and the soul (that's very Platonic) and I think we tend to obsess over Paul's metaphor of the spirit and the flesh.

Nevertheless, if your answer is 'no,' then that's the extent of our concern for this thread.

 

[Zeena]

I agree... I think. Although I wouldn't make such a firm distinction between the body and the soul (that's very Platonic) and I think we tend to obsess over Paul's metaphor of the spirit and the flesh.

I am not 'Platonic' in my definition, in FACT this definition is handed down by the Patriarch's and Prophets of old.

Wherefore did I quote the Scriprure [See post #31, for an example of such], for the Testimony of God our Father is weightier than man's.

Nevertheless, if your answer is 'no,' then that's the extent of our concern for this thread.

Until a response from me is required, or I deem it necessary, in the Spirit of my God, to reply, I do concurr.

Enjoy!

 

[wayseer]

When the subject of the Trinity comes up, Christians either have only a vague notion, or give long winded yet diluted and confusing explanations. I think the explanation is very simple:

We are all made in the image of God which means that we have 3 parts just like God does: soul, spirit and body. The soul corresponds to the Holy Father, the spirit to the Holy Spirit, and the body corresponds to the Son.

From my experience on CF it appears the Trinity can be whatever anyone happens to thinks at the time.

The Trinity does not apply to humanity - it applies to God. It is way of understanding something of the mystery that we call Jesus Christ.

The Holy Father is the alpha and the omega, unchanging and eternally the same. Similarly, Origen, one of the most important Church fathers of 2nd and 3rd century, stated that all souls are uncreated and that only spirits are created. The Holy Spirits is not quite the same as the Holy Father, it does change over time, for example, when Jesus left this world the Holy Spirit underwent a change. "I will send you a Comforter." In other words the role of the Holy Spirit suddenly became more pronounced. Similarly the spirit can go through radical changes, is created and can even be destroyed.

Sorry - but this has nothing to do with Christianity.

Please get hold of a good theology book - it is actually important that your correctly understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[LutheranMafia]

That's not the question at all.

The question is whether or not our bodies, spirits, and souls are each fully fledged persons in the way that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are fully fledged persons.

1 Corinthians 15:44 makes it clear that the spirit has it's own body and mind. Yaqui (Mexican) shaman can solidify their spirits too, creating what they call the "double", that can do things that the physical body can't possibly do.

 

[LutheranMafia]

From my experience on CF it appears the Trinity can be whatever anyone happens to thinks at the time.

The Trinity does not apply to humanity - it applies to God. It is way of understanding something of the mystery that we call Jesus Christ.

Sorry - but this has nothing to do with Christianity.

Please get hold of a good theology book - it is actually important that your correctly understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

Are you able to give a coherent distinction between spirit and soul, and more importantly between Holy Father and Holy Spirit? I've only come across one person who could actually make a meaningful distinction between the Holy Father and the Holy Spirit. (She was an African-American girl working on her master's in chemcial engineering, and was extremely intelligent).

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

1 Corinthians 15:44 makes it clear that the spirit has it's own body and mind. Yaqui (Mexican) shaman can solidify their spirits too, creating what they call the "double", that can do things that the physical body can't possibly do.

You get funnier each time you post.

So now we don't only believe in reincarnation, but Yaqui shaman spirituality?

Fantastic!

 

[LutheranMafia]

You don't believe in witchcraft? The Bible does. How come you don't?