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The Trinity... .

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&Abel

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so basically your saying that jesus was the father, son and holy spirit

the spirit is the father, son and holy spirit

and the father is the father, son and holy spirit

is that what your saying?

in a sense thats correct but only because of their different functions

god is one single consciousness existing in different forms

btw its impossible for christ to have been the father, son and holy spirit since he was made lower then angels while man

he can only be god at that point in one way and thats in spirit
 
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&Abel

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whats hilarious is how varied the beliefs of so called "trinitarians" actually is

you've put your trust in a vague man made doctrine which has led you to believe that because you all confess the doctrine that your beliefs are synced

and yet your beliefs are about as all over the map as I have seen

and most do not hold to what is actually true
 
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GuardianShua

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whats hilarious is how varied the beliefs of so called "trinitarians" actually is

you've put your trust in a vague man made doctrine which has led you to believe that because you all confess the doctrine that your beliefs are synced

and yet your beliefs are about as all over the map as I have seen

and most do not hold to what is actually true

drop the modes of actions part. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit at all times -- no different modes of existence or action

We can't use the word "mode" and escape Sabellius' heresy.

I'm excited that you know who he was!

Studying heresy is a great way to learn Christianity.

Sometimes knowing what something "is not" helps us define things better.

Forgive me...

To describe God as three in modes of action is they type of thing Nicea was trying to combat. When Jesus prayed to the Father, He wasn't just talking to Himself or just talking another mode of His action. The Son was speaking with the Father. Despite the fact that it is impossible to fully explain we simply must accept by faith that God is one in being and three in person. All the modalist or less common tritheist schemes are more logically satisfying but they do not harmonize with the Scriptures. A god we can fully understand and explain is no god at all but a god we have created in our own image.

Thanks David. Your OP looks fine since you are asking questions from an ECF perspective and asking if you are interpreting it right. That is fine.
How come Yahwah, Elohiym, Peniel or the angel of the Lord are not included with the Trinity?
 
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&Abel

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Orthodoxy,

I'm gonna make this REALLY easy for you

explain this ONE lil verse:

5(M)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (N)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (O)fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.



I'm not even gonna rack up pile of scripture like I have in the past


lets just start with an explanation of this verse


and if you feel the need to claim your not in a position to be interpreting then please tell me what could POSSIBLY be interpreted besides what is clearly being said
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Orthodoxy,

I'm gonna make this REALLY easy for you

explain this ONE lil verse:

5(M)Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; (N)examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you (O)fail the test?
6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.



I'm not even gonna rack up pile of scripture like I have in the past


lets just start with an explanation of this verse


and if you feel the need to claim your not in a position to be interpreting then please tell me what could POSSIBLY be interpreted besides what is clearly being said

From: The Orthodox Study Bible

In this context, the test of being in Christ is a humble, virtuous life lived in communion with The Church.

Forgive me...
 
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jckstraw72

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How come Yahwah, Elohiym, Peniel or the angel of the Lord are not included with the Trinity?

its my understanding that Yahwah and Elohiym are names for God (the Jews didnt know of the Trinity so they werent distinguishing which person of the Trinity with these names). I have no idea what Peniel is, and I believe angel of the Lord is sometimes used as pre-Incarnation actions of the Son.
 
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David333

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drop the modes of actions part. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit at all times -- no different modes of existence or action

Okay, thank you. So the Father is Father in essence...? In his very essence and being, God is both Father and Son...? Is that orthodox...?

If so, are we saying that God is not only one but also three in essence...? In that case, why was the' distinction' between being and person introduced...?
 
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jckstraw72

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God is 3 persons sharing one divine essence. They are all 100% God, but only the Father is the Father, only the Son is the Son, and only the Spirit is the Spirit. i think we would say that God is only one in essence, but 3 in person.
 
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David333

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God is 3 persons sharing one divine essence. They are all 100% God, but only the Father is the Father, only the Son is the Son, and only the Spirit is the Spirit. i think we would say that God is only one in essence, but 3 in person.

So how are we defining person if it not by being nor by action...? :)
 
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jckstraw72

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good question.

when i said drop the part about actions i meant that its not like when God does this action He's the Father and when He does this action He's the Son -- He is always all 3, but they are not mingled or confused (just like the two natures of Christ).
 
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David333

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good question.

when i said drop the part about actions i meant that its not like when God does this action He's the Father and when He does this action He's the Son -- He is always all 3, but they are not mingled or confused (just like the two natures of Christ).

Yeah, that's Sabellius who I really am trying to avoid I swear!

So God exists as one being; within that one being are three persons, each of which is fully and wholly God. The only difference between them are that the Father is Father by virtue of his relation to the son.

If this latter sentence is true, isn't it a case of us trying to define what Father is...? Father is the action towards the Son that the Godhead engages in; it is the mode of relation to the Son within the Godhead... . Maybe...?
 
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&Abel

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From: The Orthodox Study Bible



Forgive me...

ok now this one:

9However, you are not (R)in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you But (T)if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10(U)If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who (V)raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised (X)Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you.




19"(AC)But when they hand you over, (AD)do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20"For (AE)it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.



11"(I)When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

17the former proclaim Christ (AK)out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my (AL)imprisonment.
18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,
19for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance (AM)through your prayers and the provision of (AN)the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
20according to my (AO)earnest expectation and (AP)hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with (AQ)all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be (AR)exalted in my body, (AS)whether by life or by death.

10(AL)As to this salvation, the prophets who (AM)prophesied of the (AN)grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11seeking to know what person or time (AO)the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He (AP)predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who (AQ)preached the gospel to you by (AR)the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which (AS)angels long to look.



I just found the above today(I just keep finding more and more)


so the prophets of old were also speaking from the spirit of christ which was in them



6They passed through the (N)Phrygian and (O)Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in (P)Asia;
7and after they came to (Q)Mysia, they were trying to go into (R)Bithynia, and the (S)Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;



you really only have 2 options...either you accept that the holy spirit is the spirit of both the father and jesus or we have 3 spirits working within us
 
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&Abel

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good question.

when i said drop the part about actions i meant that its not like when God does this action He's the Father and when He does this action He's the Son -- He is always all 3, but they are not mingled or confused (just like the two natures of Christ).

I do agree with that...but what makes them god is the unified spirit(that is the actual essence, the holy spirit)

they are separate and yet united in spirit(which we now have access too as well)

18for through Him we both have (BF)our access in (BG)one Spirit to (BH)the Father.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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you really only have 2 options...either you accept that the holy spirit is the spirit of both the father and jesus or we have 3 spirits working within us

Sorry but that's not correct.

And, It would not matter how many scriptures you post... as it is clearly a matter of what you are reading "into" them.

Clearly, You are choosing to define scripture for yourself.

Hey, Did you get a chance to read that pdf I sent you? On the Incarnation by St. Anthanasius; Why Christ Came, Died and was Resurrected

Forgive me...
 
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David333

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The Son is not required for The Father to be Father.

The Father is.

Forgive me...

But the Son is eternally begotten of the Father so regardless of whether the Son is 'required' for the Father to be Father, does the Father exist as Father only by virtue of the eternally begotten Son...?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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But the Son is eternally begotten of the Father so regardless of whether the Son is 'required' for the Father to be Father, does the Father exist as Father only by virtue of the eternally begotten Son...?

As you say... The Son is eternally begotten... we will have to wait until we have passed to eternity for a good answer.

Forgive me...
 
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