THe trinity my theory....

[Azad]

Shemot 3:15
God then said to Moses, 'You must [then] say to the Israelites, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.' This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.

G-d says his name(singular) will always be linked to 3 persons! ! which are Abraham, his son Isaac, and Jacob... who is also known as Israel.

Mattai 28:18-19
18 And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth.
19 Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;


so my theory is, Abraham means in Hebrew: father of a multitude or nations. Abba means father. Isaac is the son of Abraham. and Jacob who is also Israel known as the holy nation (Shemot 19:6).

May be Yeshua when saying "baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" is refering to Shemot 3:15 and asking them to baptize men in tje name of the G-d of Abraham (father) the G-d of Isaac (Son) and the G-d of Israel (Holy spirit)

What do you think?

 

[Talmidah]

Interesting theory...

 

[torahlife]

Azad,

Does G-d have to be a trinity? Scripture does not say so. In all my theology classes this would inevitably come up and I've heard so many diverse ideas as to explain the trinity which would "make sense" to that person, yet no one has been able to find the word or explaination in the test itself. One has to go "outside" of scripture to make it work. I must say that I've never heard your idea before. Well, if it works for you, then so be it. It is an interesting idea.

Have a great day,
torahlife

 

[Azad]

Azad,

Does G-d have to be a trinity? Scripture does not say so. In all my theology classes this would inevitably come up and I've heard so many diverse ideas as to explain the trinity which would "make sense" to that person, yet no one has been able to find the word or explaination in the test itself. One has to go "outside" of scripture to make it work. I must say that I've never heard your idea before. Well, if it works for you, then so be it. It is an interesting idea.

Have a great day,
torahlife

Hmm...
you misunderstood my post, I do not beleive in a trinity

 

[ShirChadash]

Shalom Azad. I have to say, the only thing that gives me pause is this:

"asking them to baptize men in tje name of the G-d of Abraham (father) the G-d of Isaac (Son) and the G-d of Israel (Holy spirit)"

Are you saying this:

1) The G-d of Abraham (YHVH, the Father) The G-d of Isaac (Yeshua, the Son) and the G-d of Israel (Ruach, the Holy Spirit) (I don't think so, but I have to ask)

Or, are you saying

2) The G-d of Abraham (who is the father) The G-d of Isaac (who is the son of Abraham) and the G-d of Israel/Jacob ( here's the problem...)

If you are saying the first phrase, or the second? If you are meaning the first, then it seems to me that you might be unnecessarily separating YHVH into aspects of Himself and saying that differing people worship differing parts of YHVH, when He is worshipped as a whole IMO ( ). And if you are meaning the second phrase, then the problem I see is that the members in the parentheses do not follow -- as in, Abraham, Isaac and the Holy Spirit. Catch my drift, Achi?


editing, trying to make myself more clear.

 

[torahlife]

Azad,

I'm sorry, I guess I did misunderstand your post. For those who know you better, they can read between the lines. Or I just didn't get it

torahlife

 

[Aronbengilad]

The concept of the Triune God is revealed throughout Scripture and the Jewish traditions. One could write a book on this. I suggest you reflect as a start on the three mentions of God in the Shema which are linked to the three Kadoshim (Holies ) of Isaiah 6 and the three mentions of God in the 13 attributes of Mercy. The synagogue liturgy also calls God the Thrice Holy God. Even the expression Holy of Holies is consider Triune. The mystical traditions speaks of the three sparkiling lights and the the three Heads and the root of Roots. Even the first verses of the Bible reveal the triune Creator. The Three heads that are the Divine Will (Ratzon) reveal that the first Head is the origin of source of Will and Creation (the Father), the second head is the Divine Will to Create as the Wisdom or Word (the Son) and the third Head is the Divine Desire to Create which is Divine Action or Volition which we call the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit). Rabbi Isaac the Blind of Provence states that the three forces within the Godhead are the one power of Chesed (Love/Mercy). I could go on all day but I'll leave you with just this taste of the Mystery of the Triune God.

 

[Ahriman]

say the doctrine of the"Trinity" is false...(currently i believe it to be true because that's what i've been taught)...would G-d hold that belief against me since it's been taught in his Name?... am i setting myself up for condemnation? there are so many ideas out there that claim to be Torah or in his Name that i don't know what to believe. am i making sense ? I want to know the true way and i belive that true way to be in Yeshua however if I'm wrong what then?

 

[Aronbengilad]

Dear Ahriman

I believe that Hashem looks at the heart not the head. If you sincerely believe something then you should follow that where ever it leads you. Hashem will only judge you on what you believed not on what you didn't. He is total and Infinite Love and Mercy. He accepts you where you are now and will guide you if you truly desire to.

 

[sojeru]

GREETINGS AZAD!!!
you surprise me very much achi!
And indeed I must call you such Your Excellency!

That is a very intresting theory and one that I will take into great consideration!

See, the thing is - is that Sefer Mattityahu (bbok of Mathew) is a Midrash, a Homily, a Parable. This is clearly seen by many Jewish authors who have studied the midrashim.
So what is said by matthew can in no way be taken literally.
I see that you have dived deeper into the text, and I thank you for bringing that out.

Basically what you are saying is that when a person goes into the Mikvah he is to do it as all Jews do it
since all Jews in their prayers to G-D always call out "Avraham, YitsHak and Ya'acov"

And you are much right to say that Ya'acov/Israel in which the sons of all three of our patriarchs were called after, is the "Holy Spirit" or rather I like to interpret it as "Spirit(Ruach) of Separation(Kadesh)".
Because it was with the people of Yisrael at Sinai that we became and made known the great separation from those who follow after HaShem and the world.

Thank you so much for the insight!!!
Baruch HaShem

Shalom u'brachot
Antonio

 

[D.W.]

Shalom Azad I to find it an interesting theory, and it is the first time I have heard it put that way. I will be interested in this thread to see how it holds up. I too do not believe in the triune god, so I will try to hold my peace while you debate this to it's conclusion with others.

G-d Bless,
Dan

 

[ShirChadash]

Okay -- what did I miss? Everyone else seems to be getting the point of the OP without much question... I always take things as the literal first, and then go further... am I being toooooo literal here? ( )

 

[Flavius]

I write too much about the trinity. I don't think there are too many stories you can't find the trinity in. Ham,Japheth Shem....Cain,Able,Seth...Too many to mention.All the firsts have the same charachteristics.The second born has theirs as well as the thirds.

 

[Azad]

I write too much about the trinity. I don't think there are too many stories you can't find the trinity in. Ham,Japheth Shem....Cain,Able,Seth...Too many to mention.All the firsts have the same charachteristics.The second born has theirs as well as the thirds.

A question to all MJ's here, do you beleive in all 13 principles of Maimonide?
can you show me any rabbinic work that supports the trinity?
Why don't Jews beleive in a trinity, if it that obvious?

 

[Aronbengilad]

The fullness of the understanding of the Triune nature of the Godhead was only given with the coming of the Mashiach Yeshuah as Mashiach ben Yosef. The Ruach ha Kodesh throughout the centuries has been guiding us in to a deeper and deeper understanding of this Revelation. The idea is in seed form throughout the Scriptures and also in the Jewish Mystical tradition. If you read the mystical writings of the early mystical rabbis you will see they speak of the three forces and three lights that are one (echad) unity in the Godhead. One rabbi calls them father,son and holy spirit others father, mother and son. this is a great mystery or secret in the Mystical tradition. In fact one Rabbi states that it is only by the enlightening of the Ruach ha Kodesh that one can understand how this can be. This unity of the three in one and the ten in one is described as a unity such as a coal is with its flame.

 

[Azad]

The fullness of the understanding of the Triune nature of the Godhead was only given with the coming of the Mashiach Yeshuah as Mashiach ben Yosef. The Ruach ha Kodesh throughout the centuries has been guiding us in to a deeper and deeper understanding of this Revelation. The idea is in seed form throughout the Scriptures and also in the Jewish Mystical tradition. If you read the mystical writings of the early mystical rabbis you will see they speak of the three forces and three lights that are one (echad) unity in the Godhead. One rabbi calls them father,son and holy spirit others father, mother and son. this is a great mystery or secret in the Mystical tradition. In fact one Rabbi states that it is only by the enlightening of the Ruach ha Kodesh that one can understand how this can be. This unity of the three in one and the ten in one is described as a unity such as a coal is with its flame.

Can you give me Biblical verses to back up your claims?
I beleive you are refering to the Zohar, and the Sephoroths....

What is exactly your definition of the trinity, is it the same as other Christians?if not whar are the differences?

 

[simchat_torah]

Its crazy to me that some people are able to toss around so many Hebrewisms, yet miss Judaic theology.

*sigh*

 

[Aronbengilad]

Dear Simchat Torah,


I don't know if you are referring to me. I don't know your religious background. If you are Jewish and not Messianic then what I wrote was not intended for you. I do not believe in proselytizing Jewish people and entering into polemic and apolegetic arguments with them. I am a Jew who has gone on a spiritual journey and believes in Jesus as the Messiah. I only wish to share my insights with other such believers. I have many Jewish friends of all backgrounds and I respect where they are at and would not dream of imposing my views on them. i am very familiar with kabbalah but do not accept Maimonides statement that the Sefirot are created lights. I accept with Nahmanides and all the older Kabbalists that they are one essence with the Godhead. I also do not accept the more occultic and gnostic direction that some of the followers of the Ari went in. I have great reservation in regards to some of the aspects of modern Luriainic Kabbalah which head in occult directions. I prefer to stick to the older pre-Lurianic texts and traditions of Kabblah and examining any new insights in the light of this older tradition. I was formerly Orthodox Jewish and loved my Orthodox Jewish community and still do. If I was not a believer in Jesus I would still be fully part of the Orthodox community. However I very sadly told my rabbis that I had to leave as believing in Jesus is incompatible with being part of the Orthodox Jewish community. So I became a Hebrew Catholic. I thus now see the whole of the Jewish inheritance in the light of the Messiah Jesus and his Blessed Mother. Obviously I will come up with different emphasises and insights than the person who doesn't look at this through this prism of belief.
I centre my spirtual life on adoration of the divine Presence and the entering into a deep relationship with the Divine and feeding on this Living Torah. My desire is to totally live in the Divine Will and bathe in his Ocean of Divine Mercy.

 

[Aronbengilad]

Just a comment about Hebrewism. If you have ever lived amongst the frum then their whole way of speaking English is peppered with Hebrew and Yiddish words. So much so that other English speakers have trouble understanding them. That Messianic Jews should also do this should not surprise anyone.

 

[sojeru]

About The writtings of Zohar and Kabbalistic works>
Just for a tad of information.

These works are by NO MEANS to be taken literally.
Which is a reason why it is said that no one can actually study these works and understand them unless they are VERY WELL LEARNED and have an age of Understanding.

which is usually around the time of CHANGE--> 40
ofcourse some have always made the exception.

But for those who take these works literally, knowing that this degree of literature is much more ripe in Symbolism than the Midrash which is a parable degree of understanding, they will be taken by every wind of doctrine and not know how to rightly divide the word of truth.

PRDS the only literature that can be taken literally is the Peshat
everything else cannot
which is the reason why Talmud cannot be taken literally- Only the Mishnah is the literal yet requires one to have knowledge of Judaism.
Talmud is Remets/remez- Gemara
then comes Midrash
then comes Sod-Zohar

So dear Aron
I only suggest that you relook these wrttings and understand that they can IN NO WAY be read literally, thus if you understand it to mean a unity such as the literal way that you read it- you need to read more in midrash and understand that before you go back to Zohar and such books.
If you read Midrash and you understand that literally- You need to go to Talmud and read that with good understanding and then go to Midrash.
If you understand Talmud literally- then you need Mishnah....

Blessings and Peace to you,

Antonio