THe trinity my theory....

[simchat_torah]

The mixing of catholocism and Judaism is, imo, a contradiction in the greatest sense.
A Jew sees Hebrewisms mixed with Catholic theology... as sloppy at best (though much worse comes to mind).

While there is no limitation on who one accepts as the messiah, there certainly is a limitation on what doctrines and theologies one attaches to that messiah. Catholocism and Judaism are a contradiction in terms when it comes to the messiah. To mix the two is a grave error.

Of course, imho, protestantism is just the little sister of Catholocism, and thus just as offending of a mixture... but hey, who's counting?

Again, this is my opinion. However, I'm quite sure that the Rabbis would agree with me.

 

[Aronbengilad]

Sojero

I am well aware that one does not interpret the Mystical writings at a literal level but it is dealing with things beyond our comprehension and thus it must be expressed in the language of symbols. I am not a novice in the study of kabbalah as I have been studying it for more than 10 years. And you are correct one comes to a deeper penetration of these mysteries as one gets near 40. I have passed that landmark so I think I qualify.

Simchat Torah

Catholicism is totally rooted in Judaism and to understand the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church fully one needs to have an understanding of its Jewish roots. It is impossible to separate Catholicism from Judaism and this is why the Pope calls the Jews the older brothers in the faith and that Judaism is not strictly speaking another religion for Catholics. However I am not here to argue the merits of Catholicism so I will leave it at that.

I have learnt alot in the short time of have been here about Messianic Jews and i am very concerned at the trend towards anti-Paul and anti Trinitarian views and also the Judaizing of Gentiles. For me there is something deceitful about Gentiles pretending to be Jews. I hope and pray this is not what the main movement of Messianic Jews is about. Many Jewish and Hebrew Catholic friends have been negative about Messianic Jews and I now see a bit more clearly what they meant. I grew up attending Messianic Jewish meetings with my mother and aunt so I was surprised at their reaction. I actually came here to met other Torah Observant Jews who believe in the Mashiach Yeshuah but was disappointed in that regard. May Hashem bless you all and guide you in your spiritual search.

 

[ShirChadash]

Catholicism is totally rooted in Judaism and to understand the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church fully one needs to have an understanding of its Jewish roots. It is impossible to separate Catholicism from Judaism and this is why the Pope calls the Jews the older brothers in the faith and that Judaism is not strictly speaking another religion for Catholics. However I am not here to argue the merits of Catholicism so I will leave it at that.

As a former very well-learned, strictly observant and faithful, life-long (until roughly 10-years ago) Roman Catholic, I must say I entirely disagree with you... and these last five or so years my family has spent on the path to learning and embracing Messianic Judaism only solidifies my stand on this issue. I am content to agree to disagree with you, by all means, and I certainly don't wish to make you feel unwelcome, but I wanted to respond to your above assertion, aronbengilad.


~z~ your average, non-"anti"-pauline, non-"anti"-trinitarian, Messianic non-Jew (for now).

 

[iitb]

I have learnt alot in the short time of have been here about Messianic Jews and i am very concerned at the trend towards anti-Paul and anti Trinitarian views and also the Judaizing of Gentiles. For me there is something deceitful about Gentiles pretending to be Jews. I hope and pray this is not what the main movement of Messianic Jews is about. Many Jewish and Hebrew Catholic friends have been negative about Messianic Jews and I now see a bit more clearly what they meant. I grew up attending Messianic Jewish meetings with my mother and aunt so I was surprised at their reaction. I actually came here to met other Torah Observant Jews who believe in the Mashiach Yeshuah but was disappointed in that regard. May Hashem bless you all and guide you in your spiritual search.

I was going to throw in some smart-aleck remark about people that stop in here for the sole purpose of judging us, but I think I'd much rather say this:

If you disagree with what is said here, and can do nothing but look down your nose at us, then I'd recommend avoiding the MJ forum. Nobody is forcing you to participate here, and posts like the above only disrupt the harmony of this forum.

 

[Plan 9]

No one here is at all interested in Judaizing us, as I understand the meaning of the term.

 

[Plan 9]

Of course, imho, protestantism is just the little sister of Catholocism, and thus just as offending of a mixture... but hey, who's counting?

I'm sorry you're offended, Yafet.

 

[Flavius]

Sojero

I am well aware that one does not interpret the Mystical writings at a literal level but it is dealing with things beyond our comprehension and thus it must be expressed in the language of symbols. I am not a novice in the study of kabbalah as I have been studying it for more than 10 years. And you are correct one comes to a deeper penetration of these mysteries as one gets near 40. I have passed that landmark so I think I qualify.

Simchat Torah

Catholicism is totally rooted in Judaism and to understand the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church fully one needs to have an understanding of its Jewish roots. It is impossible to separate Catholicism from Judaism and this is why the Pope calls the Jews the older brothers in the faith and that Judaism is not strictly speaking another religion for Catholics. However I am not here to argue the merits of Catholicism so I will leave it at that.

I have learnt alot in the short time of have been here about Messianic Jews and i am very concerned at the trend towards anti-Paul and anti Trinitarian views and also the Judaizing of Gentiles. For me there is something deceitful about Gentiles pretending to be Jews. I hope and pray this is not what the main movement of Messianic Jews is about. Many Jewish and Hebrew Catholic friends have been negative about Messianic Jews and I now see a bit more clearly what they meant. I grew up attending Messianic Jewish meetings with my mother and aunt so I was surprised at their reaction. I actually came here to met other Torah Observant Jews who believe in the Mashiach Yeshuah but was disappointed in that regard. May Hashem bless you all and guide you in your spiritual search.

Oh my,I don't know where to start.I guess I should begin with my apoligy for pretending to be a Jew.

Well G-d bless us all,I think I'll just keep my mouf shut on this one,i've allready got in trouble once this week.

It's times like these that I wish I had a jack hammer

 

[P_G]

Well once again we see the varied rainbow of ideas that glistens over the umberella of Messianicism <is that a real word?>

Anyway I guess I am one of those "gentiles" that is "playing" Jew.

Say according to what my bible tells me no one but Y'sreal will get into heaven with the L-rd and guess what too that same bible tells me that blessedly I have been grafted into Y'sreal. Kinda like a son only adopted. How Ha'Shem must love me you know it?

I beleive in the trinity I see it proved in Genesis 1 and John 1 as well as a few other places.

Live in peace brethern that is one thing you can be sure of!

You can also be sure the Jew was called to be a beacon to the gentile.

Blessings

Pastor George

 

[Plan 9]

Oh my,I don't know where to start.I guess I should begin with my apoligy for pretending to be a Jew.

Well G-d bless us all,I think I'll just keep my mouf shut on this one,i've allready got in trouble once this week.

It's times like these that I wish I had a jack hammer

Wowser, this has been a fun thread, hasn't it?

If you're referring to what I think you are, Flavius, you didn't get in any trouble, buddy.

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm sorry you're offended, Yafet.

I'm only offended at those who want to play the 'mix and match' game. Unfortunately, Judaism, by definition, doesn't allow this to happen. Say for example, when you toss in the worship of saints and pagan rituals into your worship of HaShem... it only defies the very basis of Judaism. I personally am not offended by any particular person... only the idea of the 'mix and match' game. People take what they want from Judaism because it tickles their fancy. Some will toss around Hebrewisms because it makes them feel good... not because they are earnestly seeking a Judaic truth.

This is what upsets me.

People want to toss around terms like "ruach HaKodesh", "HaShem", and "Tenach"... but have no interest in actually following out or seeking the essence of Jewish worship. The only want the packaging.

Its what I've often called these wanna-be messy-anic congregations. They wear a kippah but have Sunday services and "work days" on Saturday. They wear a Tallit, but eat pork. I could name any number of inconsistencies.

Hebrew Catholic. Its just another one of those messy mix and match occurances. By definition Judaism can not be Catholicism. Most of what Catholicism stands for goes against the very grain of Judaism.

I'm not judging whether Catholicism is the path or not... that is for you to decide. But I am saying that mixing the two is by its very own definition... an oxymoron.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Plan 9]

[/color]
I'm only offended at those who want to play the 'mix and match' game. Unfortunately, Judaism, by definition, doesn't allow this to happen. Say for example, when you toss in the worship of saints and pagan rituals into your worship of HaShem... it only defies the very basis of Judaism. I personally am not offended by any particular person... only the idea of the 'mix and match' game. People take what they want from Judaism because it tickles their fancy. Some will toss around Hebrewisms because it makes them feel good... not because they are earnestly seeking a Judaic truth.

This is what upsets me.

People want to toss around terms like "ruach HaKodesh", "HaShem", and "Tenach"... but have no interest in actually following out or seeking the essence of Jewish worship. The only want the packaging.

Its what I've often called these wanna-be messy-anic congregations. They wear a kippah but have Sunday services and "work days" on Saturday. They wear a Tallit, but eat pork. I could name any number of inconsistencies.

Hebrew Catholic. Its just another one of those messy mix and match occurances. By definition Judaism can not be Catholicism. Most of what Catholicism stands for goes against the very grain of Judaism.

I'm not judging whether Catholicism is the path or not... that is for you to decide. But I am saying that mixing the two is by its very own definition... an oxymoron.

shalom,
yafet

First of all, I'm not Catholic, and I made that clear when quoting you.
Second, the misuse of the term "oxymoron" goes against my grain as a former English lit major, but I realize that the definition of that word is changing, so I don't participate in the wholesale condemnation of everyone who misuses the term, even though we have no term to replace it, once it's gone.

Yes, I'm already familiar with the various forms of the insult "messy-anic", but it's not as though I can become an Orthodox Jew, is it? So, have your fun lumping all us all together, and demeaning us with an unkind label, if that's what you wish. It's not as though you can give us any hope, and you have already made that clear a number of times, Yafet.

 

[goy]

The concept of the Triune God is revealed throughout Scripture and the Jewish traditions. One could write a book on this. I suggest you reflect as a start on the three mentions of God in the Shema which are linked to the three Kadoshim (Holies ) of Isaiah 6 and the three mentions of God in the 13 attributes of Mercy. The synagogue liturgy also calls God the Thrice Holy God. Even the expression Holy of Holies is consider Triune. The mystical traditions speaks of the three sparkiling lights and the the three Heads and the root of Roots. Even the first verses of the Bible reveal the triune Creator. The Three heads that are the Divine Will (Ratzon) reveal that the first Head is the origin of source of Will and Creation (the Father), the second head is the Divine Will to Create as the Wisdom or Word (the Son) and the third Head is the Divine Desire to Create which is Divine Action or Volition which we call the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit). Rabbi Isaac the Blind of Provence states that the three forces within the Godhead are the one power of Chesed (Love/Mercy). I could go on all day but I'll leave you with just this taste of the Mystery of the Triune God.
The fullness of the understanding of the Triune nature of the Godhead was only given with the coming of the Mashiach Yeshuah as Mashiach ben Yosef. The Ruach ha Kodesh throughout the centuries has been guiding us in to a deeper and deeper understanding of this Revelation. The idea is in seed form throughout the Scriptures and also in the Jewish Mystical tradition. If you read the mystical writings of the early mystical rabbis you will see they speak of the three forces and three lights that are one (echad) unity in the Godhead. One rabbi calls them father,son and holy spirit others father, mother and son. this is a great mystery or secret in the Mystical tradition. In fact one Rabbi states that it is only by the enlightening of the Ruach ha Kodesh that one can understand how this can be. This unity of the three in one and the ten in one is described as a unity such as a coal is with its flame.

Kewl... am impressed with the breadth of your knowledge.

 

[Talmidah]

People want to toss around terms like "ruach HaKodesh", "HaShem", and "Tenach"... but have no interest in actually following out or seeking the essence of Jewish worship. The only want the packaging.

Its what I've often called these wanna-be messy-anic congregations. They wear a kippah but have Sunday services and "work days" on Saturday. They wear a Tallit, but eat pork. I could name any number of inconsistencies.

When I used to attend a messianic congregation, twice a month we had a havdallah service in addition to the shabbat morning service. Since I had to drive quite a ways (as did most of the congregants), I would pack a lunch for the children and myself and we would just 'hang out' there all afternoon until the evening service. It would annoy me so much that many of the people would go out to restaurants for lunch after the morning service....still wearing their tallitot and kippot. I would cringe when I saw them come back with their little boxes of leftovers, thinking nothing of it. I can imagine what people thought when they would see a group of 'Jews' at the local Dennys or Olive Garden on Shabbat afternoon.

 

[simchat_torah]

First of all, I'm not Catholic, and I made that clear when quoting you.

Ok... ???
I never thought you were. My comments concerning my views of "Hebrew Catholics" were not directed towards you Planny.

Second, the misuse of the term "oxymoron" goes against my grain as a former English lit major, but I realize that the definition of that word is changing, so I don't participate in the wholesale condemnation of everyone who misuses the term, even though we have no term to replace it, once it's gone.

Alright... that's fair... how about Diametric?

Yes, I'm already familiar with the various forms of the insult "messy-anic", but it's not as though I can become an Orthodox Jew, is it?

Again, my comments concerning Hebrew Catholics were not directed towards you.

So, have your fun lumping all us all together, and demeaning us with an unkind label, if that's what you wish.

Fun???

quite hardly. I'm downright offended that people will abuse Messianic Judaism as such. I will let others choose whether they want to be Catholic, Jewish, etc. But I will not allow others to create their own definitions of Messianic Judaism. I've got it hard enough allowing what I consider a 'mess' into Messianic Judaism... I feel as though I've been generous enough with other people's rather loose definitions. However, I am going to draw the line somewhere. This is it dear.

Once more, I am not lumping "you" in with anyone. There is a difference between an earnest seeking of truth and those who want ot play the mix and match game.

It's not as though you can give us any hope, and you have already made that clear a number of times, Yafet.

I'm at a loss for words. I have been nothing but kind towards you. Via pm's, chats, posts, etc. I have done nothing but extend a gentle hand. Beyond that, I don't have any clue as to what you imply by stating I haven't given you any hope. I have always given the hope of HaShem's redemption. Where this comes from is beyond me planny.

I had considered you a friend here at the forums, but your recent attitude makes me at a loss for words.

What gives?

Shalom,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

When I used to attend a messianic congregation, twice a month we had a havdallah service in addition to the shabbat morning service. Since I had to drive quite a ways (as did most of the congregants), I would pack a lunch for the children and myself and we would just 'hang out' there all afternoon until the evening service. It would annoy me so much that many of the people would go out to restaurants for lunch after the morning service....still wearing their tallitot and kippot. I would cringe when I saw them come back with their little boxes of leftovers, thinking nothing of it. I can imagine what people thought when they would see a group of 'Jews' at the local Dennys or Olive Garden on Shabbat afternoon.

Yes, it was this very practice that drove me out of the messianic scene. Well... that among other things, but it was this false witness that I wanted to dissascociate myself with.



shalom achoti,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

from the dictionary:

ox·y·mo·ron ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (

k

s

-môr

n

, -m

r

-)
n. pl. ox·y·mo·ra (-môr

, -m

r

) or ox·y·mo·rons
A rhetorical figure in which incongruous or contradictory terms are combined, as in a deafening silence and a mournful optimist.

I think my useage of Oxymoron was correct, nu?

\Ox`y*mo"ron\, n. : A figure in which an epithet of a contrary signification is added to a word; conjoining contradictory terms (as in `deafening silence')e. g., cruel kindness; laborious idleness.

Hebrew Catholic = oxymoron
contradictory terms that are combined.

 

[D.W.]

Oh Yea, Trinity Theories?

G-d Bless,
Dan

 

[goy]

[/color][/font]

Yes, it was this very practice that drove me out of the messianic scene. Well... that among other things, but it was this false witness that I wanted to dissascociate myself with.



shalom achoti,
yafet

I have a question: seeing that you and Talmida agree on the above, do you then observe Shabbat like the orthodox?

Another question: what is your position on the incident where Y'shua's talmidim plucked wheat in the fields and eating on Shabbat?

 

[simchat_torah]

I have a question: seeing that you and Talmida agree on the above, do you then observe Shabbat like the orthodox?

I'm somewhere between Orthodox and Conservative... you could say I'm conservodox

Another question: what is your position on the incident where Y'shua's talmidim plucked wheat in the fields and eating on Shabbat?

I'll get to that later....

 

[Plan 9]

from the dictionary:
[/i]I think my useage of Oxymoron was correct, nu?

Hebrew Catholic = oxymoron
contradictory terms that are combined.

You could use better dictionaries, Yafet. Your first dictionary is particularly incorrect in giving "mournful optimist".
Look at the examples in the second one again: even though they're two apparently contradictory words, they make sense, and are expressive of concepts we can't otherwise express well, so that they're combined for a reason.
Here are two more: "virtual reality", and "taped live".

If you want to say that one can't be a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew, it's correct to say that that they are "a contradiction in terms"; thundering silince, taped live, and virtual reality are not; the contradiction in terms isn't a true one in an oxymoron, and oxymorons fill an important niche in English.
Other languages also try to express this. In Japanese, the word "wabi" describes the flaw which makes an art object perfect. Those of us who are antique dealers are fully aware of this concept, but we have no English word describing it.

Thank you for focusing on this comment; It was courteous of you, and I see no reason to dwell on the fact that I'm in a catch-22 from which I cannot escape. Have you read Catch-22, by any chance?

I would like some advice in what non-Hebrew subsitutes I can use in place of "Old Testament" and "New Testament", for I believe those terms to be incorrect, and to reflect replacement theology. Now that I know that it makes you feel unhappy when we use more correct the Hebrew terms, I don't really know what to do instead.