The Trinity Doctrine

[Hervey]

Catchup:

There are many formula's for the doctrine of the trinity. But the main formula is - Father - Son - and Holy Spirit. There are many things about this doctrine that just does not make any sense.

If the Son was God, why would he pray to himself (Father), and why would he tell people not to call him good ? And then claim that there is only one that is good , my Father in heaven. Oops - God is now in two places. On earth praying to himself who is also in heaven, and telling everyone that he is not to be called good, but he is in heaven at the same time , while telling people he is God, and his Father is God and somewhere out in the wilderness the third part to the first and to the second part, the Holy Spirit is flying around , where no one can see him, because no one has ever seen God at any time.

Sound confusing ?

Well, that is what the trintiy doctrine is all about --- confusion.

L I C - Hervey

 

[isshinwhat]

Where is the nature of God? Is it not everywhere? The Godhead is inseparable, infinite, eternal. It keeps everything in existence and yet is somehow separate from its creation in essence. The finite human can never become God, but the infinite God can, and did, take on humanity. The substance of God is infinite. If one possesses that nature, then he must possess it fully, because you cannot separate infinity. It has no beginning and no end.

Christ the person was Divine, not human, though he had a human nature. Christ the person was the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. God and man can work together and did so perfectly in Christ. His will was the Father's, for they were TRULY THE SAME WILL. THEY SHARED THE SAME NATURE. His human will desired what his divine will desired. In Christ, two natures were possessed fully, human nature and divine nature. Time for class again. Talk to ya'll later.


Neal

 

[Hervey]

isshinwhat:

The Godhead is separate from His creation ?? The fact is, the opposite is true !

Romans 1:20 - "For the invisible things of him (God) from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse "

If one can not see the Godhead from the creation of the world, being understood by the things that are made. Then there is a problem, because that person should have no excuse, because the Godhead is clearly seen from the things that are made !!!

L I C - Hervey

 

[isshinwhat]

I said, "It keeps everything in existence and yet is somehow separate from its creation in essence."

Notice I said in essence. Nature is not divine, nor are we. There is a huge disparity between the Creator and the created. This is all I was saying. By saying the Godhead keeps everything in existence, I am affirming that we are able to discern "his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity" (RSV Romans 1:20). It is embeddded in human nature to turn to God and seek Him out, for He calls us all to Him, and wills that all be saved.

Gloria to God in the Highest!

Neal

Most High, all-powerful, good Lord,
Yours are the praises, the glory, the honor, and all blessing.

To You alone, Most High, do they belong,
and no man is worthy to mention Your name.

Praised be You, my Lord, with all your creatures,
especially Sir Brother Sun, Who is the day and through whom You give us light. And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendor; and bears a likeness of You, Most High One.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars, in heaven You formed them clear and precious and beautiful.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Wind,
and through the air, cloudy and serene, and every kind of weather through which You give sustenance to Your creatures.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Water,
which is very useful and humble and precious and chaste.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You, my Lord, through our Sister Mother Earth, who sustains and governs us, and who produces varied fruits with colored flowers and herbs.

Praised be You, my Lord, through those who give pardon for Your love and bear infirmity and tribulation.

Blessed are those who endure in peace for by You, Most High, they shall be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord, through our Sister Bodily Death, from whom no living man can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin.

Blessed are those whom death will find in Your most holy will, for the second death shall do them no harm.

Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks and serve Him with great humility.

 

St. Francis of Assisi

 

[Hervey]

isshinwhat

I believe we are playing word games now. Which will not allow a conversation to go forward.

I understood what you said, and commented correctly.

You also said that God can and did take on humanity. Which is not true ! Nor is there any scripture to back this up with !

Christ came in the flesh, and we are to believe that the Son of God - Christ, came in the flesh, and if we believe this , then we are of God. - I John 4:2 -- We who know the Spirit of God confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, and that Christ is the Son of God.

This is the difference between the spirit of truth and the spirit of error -I John 4:6

No man has seen God at any time - I John 4:12

The Father sent the Son - I John 4:14 - to be the saviour of the world.

Whosoever confesseth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God , God dwelleth in him, and he in God - I John 4:15

I John 5:1 - "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (The Son of God) is born of God: and every one that loveth him (God) that begat loveth him (Christ) also that is begotten of him (God)"

God did not come in the flesh and take on humanity !!

L I C - Hervey

 

[isshinwhat]

John 1
1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God;

Here John tells us that God IS the Word and the Word is eternal.

John 1
14   And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Here John tells us that this Word, who is God, became Flesh and also he is the Son of God.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Jesus, who is the Word, and is God, says here that he who has seen him has seen the Father.

A father and a son are necessarily alike in nature. How can Christ be the Son of God, and not share in His Divine Nature?

Neal

 

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Hervey
Catchup:


If the Son was God, why would he pray to himself (Father),

He wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying to the Father.
Jesus was theanthropas the God-Man. As man He relied on His heavenly Father.

and why would he tell people not to call him good ? And then claim that there is only one that is good , my Father in heaven.

Because those calling Him good were thinking that as a man He was good, and Jesus was clarifying that God alone is good.

Oops - God is now in two places. On earth praying to himself who is also in heaven, and telling everyone that he is not to be called good, but he is in heaven at the same time , while telling people he is God, and his Father is God and somewhere out in the wilderness the third part to the first and to the second part, the Holy Spirit is flying around , where no one can see him, because no one has ever seen God at any time

Your misunderstanding of the nature of God is what leads to silly statements like this. God is Omnipresent which means He is everywhere at the same time. God is one in essence but three in nature. To put it literally, God is one 'what' and three 'who's.' Just because we can't comprehend the trinity does not mean we can't apprehend it.

 

[LouisBooth]

herv.."God did not come in the flesh and take on humanity !! "

You're wrong. read phil 2:5-8 the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. Logos is God....so God became flesh..

 

[Hervey]

isshinwhat

Finaly someone took the effort to go to John 1 ! I have been trying to ge Louis to do this.

I am sure you would agree, but I will ask you anyways. Do you believe that God has foreknowledge ?

Everything then, from within His Word came about by his foreknowledge.

Everything !

John 1:1 - "In the beginning" -- Because God does not have a beginning, we then must go to the beginning of His Word, which would be Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning" - "God created the heaven and the earth"

Genesis 2:7 "and God formed man from the dust of the earth" --- hence -- Just like in John 1:14 - The Word became flesh

When you were born, the Word was made flesh, and when I was born, the Word was made flesh.

God is His Word, but by way of foreknowledge !

In the OT God promised two things. Promise seed, and promise land.

The promise seed became flesh - Galatians 3:16 - I John 4:2 - "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God : Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God "

Why do you reject the truth in the scriptures ? I John 4:12 says that no man has seen "God " at any time". God does not change, and trinitarism constantly is changing God in order to make him fit in a size 32 jeans , when in fact God wears a size 447585967643295847123348667463(8) - infinite size, which the stores do not handle !

John 14:9 is telling us , that we can see the Father by way of what the Son says , does, and reveals unto us. It is not telling us to look at the Son and you should "see" the Father ! We see the Father by what the Son reveals unto us. Don't look at him, look at what he says, and does !

Matthew 11:27 - "All things are delivered unto me of my Father : and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father ; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him"

Jesus Christ does not receive anything unless it is delivered unto him by way of his Father. Jesus Christ came to do his Father's will, not his own will. This verse above is telling us, if one has eyes to see and ears to hear, that the Son reveals the Father unto whomsoever the Son will. And the Son is always doing the Father's will, and will only reveal the Father to those whom the Father wills.

The two are one in purpose, they are not both the same one !

We can only see the Father, who is God , because no man has seen God at any time , by way of the Son revealing him unto us !

L I C - Hervey

 

[Hervey]

Louis:

Philippians 2:5 tells us to have the mind of Christ

Verse 6 - who being in the form of God ( Not God - just form ) -- Which is Spirit. Christ is a spirit that became flesh. God is Spirit - John 4:24

Christ , the Son of God, took upon him the form of a servant - verse 7 - flesh - I John 4:2

Verse 8 - obedient --- Question: obedient unto whom ? Himself ? or His Father who is God ?


L I C - Hervey

 

[LouisBooth]

"Verse 6 - who being in the form of God "

I think you need to check out what that word means okay?

the word used there is morphe..also used in this verse

"After [1161] [3326] that [5023] he appeared [5319] (5681) in [1722] another [2087] form [3444] unto two [1417] of [1537] them [846], as they walked [4043] (5723), and went [4198] (5740) into [1519] the country [68]. "

Do you think christ changed here into another being altogether? No, he changed forms, much like you putting on a costume. He was God with flesh on like described in John chapter 1.


"obedient unto whom ? Himself ? or His Father who is God ?
"

Obedient unto the Father who is ALSO God as an example to us. This is denoted by verse 5..your attitude should be the same as christ Jesus..who was equal to God but didn't claim it (ie he was God).