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The Trinity Doctrine

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by LouisBooth, Apr 10, 2002.

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  1. BigEd

    BigEd an adopted child of God

    The piviotal verse is still matthew 28:19.

    (and this was NOT added in later. I think Hervey got that confused with the end of the gospel of mark.)

    matthew 3:16 and Luke 3;21-22 only help to support matthew 28:19 , by giving a glimse into the interaction and fellowship of the trinity.

    also john 1 can not be easily dismissed.
  2. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    The trinity doctrine says - 3 in one, and there is no record within the Word to defend this false doctrine with !

    Jesus Christ said that the Father and I are one. Simple math 1 + 1 = 2 or in this case 2 become one in the unity of the mind, purpose, strength, soul, heart.

    Jesus Christ said, I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me - John 14:10 - he doeth the works.

    John 14:20 - "At that day ye shall know that I in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you"

    Lets look at this verse -- Christ is in the Father, and we Christians , are in Christ, and Christ is in us.

    We as Christians have both (two) the Father and Christ as their abode. John 14:23 - "If a man love me (as a brother), he will keep my words : and my Father will love him, and "we " will come unto him, and make "our " abode with him".

    As Christians - we have -- God(who is the Father) - IN Christ(who is the Son) - IN us !

    John 14:28 - "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice because I said, I go unto the Father ; for my Father is greater than I "

    Again we need to look at logic here. How can Jesus Christ be God, and the Father be greater than he is ? Logic tells us that this is impossible !

    The Word tells us that God is a God that changes not ! And if we assume that Jesus Christ is God, then by shear logic he would have to change, in order to be less than the Father !!

    Keep it simple !

    God is the Father of all - Ephesians 4:6

    Jesus is the son of man

    Christ is the Son of the living God - the only begotten Son of God.

    And we who have Christ IN us, are Christians, which makes us sons of God, because God put the spirit of his Son into our hearts crying Abba Father - Galatians 4:6

    L I C - Hervey
  3. Hervey

    Hervey Member


    I can handle easily, John 1 ,and I will only use logic. Maybe tomorrow if time permits.

    L I C - Hervey
  4. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    As usual you argue points with your own bias showing through. If Jesus is not God how could His death be effecatious for all of mankind throughout history? Jesus was 100% human and 100% devine....Theanthropas. You obviously must totally blind your eyes to not see Jesus' deity in scripture. Read John 1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1,
    2 Pet 1, Rev 1.

    Who's logic? Yours? I have read your posts in the past and you only want to hear what your preconceived ideas are and not the truth.
  5. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    messenger, unfortunatly gnostics aren't christians. Paul himself deals with them in galatians and warns in other letters that if you come with another message other then what they bring, they are not christians. Read galatians, read her's posts, you'll see it. I call it like i see it, always have and always will, am I 100% right all the time, NOPE, why? Because I'm human. I use the standard of the bible just as the bereians did against Paul. Using this standard Hervey falls short on his message and in my eyes has been deemed a false teacher. He doesn't believe in trinity, which is essential docterine, therefore, he again, is not a christian. I can't love someone whom I don't know.

    "Do not judge me on a man made doctrine. "

    I don't. Again look at my last statement. You can't love someone whom you dont know. Just to start...Logos=God, Logos became flesh, John says X about Logos, John says X about Jesus. Conclusion, Jesus is Logos.
  6. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member


    Easily deal with this:

    Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, who is and who was and is to come, the Almighty.

    Rev 1:11 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last...

    Rev 1:17 Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.

    Who sits in the Judgement seat? who will Judge the living and dead ?

    Who is the speaker in Joel 3:12-16 ? Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there i will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle for the harvest is ripe. Come go down; For the winepress is full, ... skip to 17 -- So you shall know the I am the Lord your God.

    While the doctrine of the Trinity is man-made it is evidenced so many times and so clearly in the Bible it's undeniable. Thousands of scholars who have given their lives to the study of scripture and theology disagree with you. Perhaps they are all wrong and you Hervey are right. I guess that's a possibility. :(
  7. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life


    With all due respect what I have found online is statements from churches stating that the Trinity Doctrine will be constantly changing due to our inability as humans to truely understand the nature of God. God is all...God is everything. When humans try and understand God it leads us to futher confussion....The mormans believe we can be gods. The nature of God is a mystery. I will not put a Doctrine on God and say this is who He is. God is to be worshiped honored and loved. Jesus is to be loved accepted as our Savior and our link to God we can pray through Jesus. Jesus lived his life to show us how to live ours and died for our sins. The Holy Spirit was sent to show us the way. Now each of these 3 are very important. Would it matter if we had God without Jesus...we would be doomed without Christ dying so we might have Salvation. If we didn't have the Holy Spirit would we have enough faith, hope, love and all the guidance to lead us to Christ. If we didn't have God what would we be...without God we would not exist nor would Jesus or the Holy Spirit. The 3 are all very very important. Important isn't saying enough. The 3 are a necessity (sorry I can't spell). If what I stated is Trinity than Yes I believe in Trinity but if believing in Trinity means I say all 3 are the same...no I don't believe that totally. I think Trinity is putting an absolute where it isn't capable. Man can not understand the nature of God and in attempts to do the impossible they come up with Trinity. Trinity may be the best they can come up with but the best isn't 100% right.

    Love and God Bless
  8. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life


    With all due respect...what you say means little. Have you ever read about Hypocrites in the Bible. You are judging me and others and saying we are not Christians by your standards. You believe in this Trinity Doctrine enough to condemn those who do not. I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N! You little man are not worthy enough to take a title from me that my Lord and Savior has given me. You may have knowledge...but you have much ignorance. :help:

    Be careful of how you Judge for you will be judged...That is in the Bible not some man-made doctrine. You put your faith in Man--I put my faith in God--there in lies our differences. You put your faith in the unknown--I put my faith God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I will not put a Doctrine on God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and wrap them up into a Trinity Package.

    You should get a copy of this Doctrine that you have all your faith in and show it here. If this Trinity Doctrine is what you judge and condemn us by KNOW what it is 100% because you will be Judged! :bow:

    I'm thankful that God is a Loving and Fair God. When you have the Doctrine then I'll look until then...Have a nice day. :sleep:

    Love and God Bless. :wave:
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    Blessings to you Messenger :wave:

    That was a good post. I was coming across more from the Jesus is God argument, which i promised myself i wouldn't do anymore. I was going to post the note from my study Bible, but the most important thing from that is: They dont understand it either. " It's beyond our comprehension " I accept it fully and faithfully. For myself I may be a little concerned if i thought i had it figured out..lol.

    I wont post again on this thread, but hope to see you around on other ones.

  10. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

    That is the Trinity! All this mess...just because you object to giving the Three-in-One Godhead a name?

    Here is a link to a very good article on the doctrine of the Trinity and why it is true.

    Trinity Doctrine

    It is in reference to Jehovah Witnesses beliefs but it has all the verses and linguistics that prove the Trinity from a Biblical perspective.

    Please thoroughly read the whole article. It isn't long.
  11. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    What I object to is Louisbooth stating I am not a Christian if I don't believe the same as him. I don't need a Trinity Doctrine. The Holy Spirit revails the truth to me. I just don't need any doctrines. I read my Bible and learn. I still haven't mastered what I have learned.

    The article you gave I appreciate that you took the time but I understand more about Jehovah Witnesses. This article is ignorant when it comes to them. Jehovah is Jesus. But I've already been going on and on over that on another thread.

    I think we need to leave people alone that we don't fully understand and learn what is true for ourselves. Now this doesn't mean to not learn from eachother it just means not to condemn another person or religion. There are a lot of falseness being spread about people as well as religions. If you are learning from someone never take their word for it "test the spirits" but if you believe it to be wrong walk away--or try and teach what you believe to be "truth". If they don't listen walk away. Don't beat a dead horse. :sleep:

    As far as trinity I don't believe in the doctrine...I'm the dead horse. I love God....I love Jesus...I love the Holy Spirit. I don't like that a Doctrine was made. I really don't like that people stand up for a Doctrine they don't fully know. God is impossible to understand so to take someones word for what he is just isn't for me.

    I learn daily. I learn love and understanding. I don't need to accept a Doctrine of any sort in order to pretend to have something figured out. If the Doctrine says God is a mystery well duh? what type of Doctrine is that??? I don't have the need for approval....I'd rather be a child of God than a child of this world.

    Again if you truely believe it--good for you....but my phylosophy is to not condemn nor put my belief in a religion or doctrine that I don't know. In order for me to believe I'd have to see it and "test" it. I believe in Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit because I KNOW they exist....I know it as much as I KNOW I exist. I don't need a man-made doctrine to tell me how they exist. They exist in my heart mind soul...my very being. Now can I truely explain to you how they exist to me...No but I don't need a doctrine I have the Holy Spirit...The doctrine is less than what I have not more... I just don't have that faith in man-made doctrines. I received an inspiration and I believe it...I'm ramblin' again. Sorry ;)

    Take Care and I appreciate you all...(Louisbooth I even appreciate you...you made me stronger...you big bully! And Just for the Record I am a
    C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N!) :clap:

    Thanks Phonix I appreciate your kindness! See ya around!

    Love and God Bless :hug:
  12. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

    Sorry Messenger.

    I could have sworn i saw you post that you wanted someone to post the Trinity doctrine here in this thread.

    You also mentioned that you had been searching the net for it and were unable to find anything.

    I simply provided what you asked for. I am not beating a "dead horse" as you like to put it. Don't ask for things you really don't want to receive and/or have no intention of receiving.

    As for Jehovah witnesses....a little colloquialism that fits well....."a duck is still a duck, even if you do call it a goose". I guess that is for another thread though.
  13. rkbo

    rkbo Member


    within the being and activity of the one God there are three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Although the word trinity does not appear in the Bible, the "trinitarian formula" is mentioned in the Great Commission <Matt. 28:19> and in the benediction of the apostle Paul's Second Epistle to the Corinthians <2 Cor. 13:14>.
    God revealed Himself as one to the Israelites: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!" <Deut. 6:4>. This was a significant religious truth because the surrounding nations worshiped many Gods and had fallen into idolatry, worshiping the creation rather than the true Creator <Rom. 1:18-25>. "But when the fullness of the time had come," Paul wrote <Gal. 4:4>, "God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." In the New Testament God revealed that He is not only one but a family of persons-- an eternal, inexhaustible, and dynamic triune family of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are one in will and purpose, love and righteousness.
    The relationship of Father and Son is prominent in the gospels because Jesus, the eternal Son who takes on human flesh, is most visible to us as He strikes a responsive chord through the Father-Son relationship. All the while the Holy Spirit is in the background, serving as our eyes of faith. The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is portrayed by Jesus' trinitarian teaching <John 14--16>. This truth is expressed in the total ministry of Jesus as recorded in all four gospels as well as in the rest of the New Testament. The triune family cooperates as one in bringing the lost person home again into a redeemed family of believers.
    The most distinctive characteristic of the persons of the triune family is their selfless love for one another. Each esteems and defers to the other in a way that makes the original family of the trinity a model for the Christian family of believers in the church.
    The Father gives all authority to the Son and bears witness to Him, as does Jesus to Himself <John 8:18>. Yet the Son claims nothing for Himself; He gives all glory to the Father who has sent Him <John 12:49-50>. The key to unlocking the mystery of the trinity is to observe how the persons of the triune family give themselves to one another in selfless love. They are always at one another's disposal.
    The Father serves the Son; the Son serves the Father; Father and Son defer to the Holy Spirit, who in turn, serves and defers to the Father and Son in a oneness that is eternally dynamic and inexhaustible. The mutual love of the triune persons spills over into the creation and is seen in their generous cooperation in saving the lost <John 14:15-17,25-26>.
    Since God is the original family-in-unity, so Christians are urged by Jesus and the apostles to imitate the divine family in the believing fellowship, as Jesus taught so clearly when He washed the disciples' feet <John 13:14-15>. The principal trait of the triune family is speaking the truth in love; this encourages a spirit of generosity among Christians as they reflect the divine family in calling the lost to come home.
    The trinity was at work in the incarnation of Jesus, the Son of the Most High, as He was conceived in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit <Luke 1:30-35>. At His baptism Jesus the Son received approval from the Father in the presence of the Holy Spirit <Luke 3:21-22>, fulfilling two Old Testament prophetic passages <Ps. 2:7; Is. 42:1>. The trinity was also present in the temptation, as Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, was led by the Spirit for 40 days in the wilderness. The devil recognized Jesus as the Son of God <Luke 4:3>, but he tried to destroy the faithful relationship of the divine family.
    In His preaching in the synagogue at Nazareth Jesus fulfilled <Isaiah 61:1-2>, claiming that "the Spirit of the Lord is upon Me" <Luke 4:18> and indicating that the triune family was at work in Him as the servant Son. At the transfiguration, the voice of the Father spoke again in approval of Jesus the Son to the innermost circle of disciples <Luke 9:35>.
    Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and in the Father who had delivered all things to the Son <Luke 10:21-22>. He claimed to be acting in the place of God and through the power of the Holy Spirit, who is the "finger" of God <Matt. 12:28, Luke 11:20>. Jesus' cleansing of the Temple was a claim of identification with the house of God His Father <Luke 19:45-46> that paralleled His concern for being in His Father's house at a much younger age <Luke 2:41-51>.
    Jesus witnessed further to His authority as He sent forth the disciples, following His resurrection, with the words, "Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you" <Luke 24:49>. He also told them to wait until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit <Acts 1:5,8>. Jesus claimed His Sonship not only from David but from David's Lord <Matt. 22:42-45>, indicating His deity.
    Following His resurrection, Jesus sent the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" <Matt. 28:19>. The fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy as spokesman for the Father and the Holy Spirit <Acts 1:4-8> occurred at Pentecost. This continued throughout the Book of Acts when the Holy Spirit inspired Peter and the apostles to preach a trinitarian gospel of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit <Acts 2:32-33; 5:29-32; 10:38>.
    Paul wrote from a sense of the triune family in Galatians, speaking often of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit <Gal. 3:13-14; 4:6; 5:5-6,22-24>. In Romans he used a threefold, trinitarian pattern to describe the plan of salvation <Rom. 1:18--3:20; 3:21--8:1; 8:2-30>. All the remaining New Testament books contain trinity teaching except James and 3 John.
    The triune family is God's revelation of Himself as the ultimate truth about reality. This family is the original pattern from which God creates all the families of earth with their unity and diversity. The family of mankind, after losing its intimate relationship with the divine family at the Fall, is restored to fellowship by God's action. This happens when its members acknowledge the generosity originating in the Father, expressed by the Son, and energized by the Holy Spirit.
    (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
    (Copyright (C) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
  14. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    What you are all failing to do, is to exlain to Messenger, "how" one is not a Christian if one does not believe is this false doctrine about the trinity .

    The malefactor never confessed the trinity, and he was promised salvation in paradise from Jesus Christ.

    Christianity means -- Christ IN

    Christianity does not mean trinity doctrine explained or expressed according to many different given meanings, that even trinitarians can not agree on one explanation of that false doctrine.

    Not only that, but Messenger is looking for "where" this false doctrine shows him that someone has a right to tell another that he is not a Christian because of this false doctrine.

    In fact, some trinitarians that I know , do not believe that you have to believe in this doctrine in order to be considered a Christian. Thus they put down anyone who falsely claims that the use of the doctrine of the trinity can be considered a judging , by which one has to believe in this doctrine or else that person is not a Christian.

    Predestination is in God's Word, and God predestined "who" he was going to put the spirit of His Son into their hearts ! He is the Father, and it is His right to choose who will receive the seed of Christ in them.

    It is not the right of any man made doctrines, that will determind who will and who will not be a son of God by way of predestination !! This is reserved for God only to make that choice !!

    L I C - Hervey
  15. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    Believe in Jesus for salvation and your a Christian, why's there arguements on this? It's off topic anyway.

    Good point Hervey, I mean look at the thief. What did he do? He believed in Jesus for his salvation, and JEsus gave it to him! Wow!
  16. Martin

    Martin Senior Veteran

    I admit to not having read the whole of this thread, so you may have answered this question before (forgive me if you have).....

    If you consider the trinity to be a "false doctrine", does that mean the you believe that there are three Gods (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) or do you believe that Jesus or Father or Holy Spirt are not God?

    I can see no other possibilities....

    many blessings...
  17. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    Hi Martin:

    I will keep this very simple.

    I believe that there is only 'One' God, who made , created everything, and is the Father of us all .

    There are many spirits that we are told about in the Word. Angels, and devil spirits.

    There is only "One" Holy Spirit, which is what God is.

    The first Adam (Man) was a living soul (human being), and God created this first Adam (man) in His own image.

    At the time that God made, formed, and created the first Adam (man), there was no other human beings but this one.

    That is because God is One - so he created only One man. He created this one man - both male and female, because that is the image of God also !

    Man was "The" - "one" and Only Human being (living soul)

    God was "The" - "One" - and Only - Holy Spirit

    Adam had a son, then sons

    God had a Son, then sons

    Adam's three sons are Cain, Abel, Seth

    God's three sons are Adam, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus

    Cain was the first murderer
    Adam disobeyed God, and in Adam all die.

    Abel was killed
    Jesus Christ was killed

    Seth offspring were called sons of God
    Christ Jesus (those IN Christ) are called sons of God

    Jesus is his eartly name - thus - the son of man
    Christ is his heavenly name (spiritual) - thus - the Son of God - Not God - Son of God !

    Simple right ?

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member


    "Be careful of how you Judge for you will be judged"

    That's fine with me. How can you love someone who you have no idea who that someone is. If you don't know God you can't love him. That's the take on it. I'm sorry if I offend you, but that's what God's word says. I know I'm judged by that standard, that's why I use it!!! We are to point out false teachings and saying you can be christian without knowing who Jesus or God really is is one of the biggest ones out there. *sigh* I'm not being a bully, I'm trying to speak truth to you. You admit you don't have it down, so couldn't it stem that God sent me and others to show you trinity it truth?

    "In order for me to believe I'd have to see it and "test" it"

    ahh..okay, well then you'll never believe in God nor a few other things, and you'll also loose out on the blessing.."blessed are those that have not seen and believed..." I'm sorry if I seem condemning, but I'm NOT sorry for speaking truth, for that's what it is. Christ is worshiped as God, so is the Holy Spirit and God the father, but it is also written that God is one..so the three must be one. Does it work any other way? Probably so..but not in a way we can understand as humans so we say, three in one and one in three. Again, I urge you, you can't love someone you don't know. God is trinity.
  19. Mr.Cheese

    Mr.Cheese Legend

    Mark 1. The Baptism. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Like Prego spaghetti sauce: It's in there.
  20. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    I have read all of this thread. I am left with one question.

    If trinity is fact...

    Then why do people have to know Jesus to be saved?

    If God...Jesus...Holy Spirit...are One...

    God = (GodJesusHolySpirit)

    Wouldn't they automatically have both him and the holy Spirit by believing in God? So then the Jews are saved? Other religions who believe in the creator are saved? For it is a package deal...Buy one get two free!

    I am sorry if I have stirred the pot. Before you answer please remember that I am most definitely a Christian! I do not have all the answers. I do have questions. That does not take away my Christianity!

    :) LOVE
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