The Tree and it's Fruits, the Toronto Blessing?

[Brian Mcnamee]

Copeland is a false teacher who is teaching Hindu mind power techniques.

he was a player in the Toronto blessing.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What I remember from the early days before the prosperity gospel and other weird stuff taking root was a simple message, it is our mission to receive God's love and give it away.

The message was so simple that other denominations made fun of them for not having a theology, and now they're appalled?

But the message was so simple that it allowed it to bless many traditions so they could take something back to their tradition and continue on.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Just to say, if you spin around too much, it is a natural reaction to fall down and laugh from the disorientation. (it was called "the gift of laughter")

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In Acts when Pentecost happened, people thought the people speaking the message in their own tongue were drunk. Peter explained that they were in fact not drunk, but this illustrates from scripture, how it can look that way.

It was not because they were falling around, jerking, shaking, hysterically laughing and nodding violently from side to side. They were joyful and praising God miraculously in their own languages. Because it was early in the morning for such joyfulness and celebration, the only explanation the mockers had were that they were drunk.

If the crowd had seen the type of violent and out of control manifestations as I described, they would have thought they had gone mad and would have called the authorities out to deal with the riotous behaviour. Instead what they saw was a group of people just having a good time with celebration well within the bounds of normal self controlled behaviour.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

he was a player in the Toronto blessing.

Reliable observers who have recorded the preaching have commented that the gospel of Christ has been missing from it. Sure, people have been invited to go forward and receive Christ, but did doesn't seem to be in response to the preaching that Jesus died on the cross, shed His blood as payment for their sins, or has risen from the dead to give them eternal life.

It would be interesting to ask some of the new converts why their received Christ. Their answers may be quite instructive!

 

[misput]

We have one of two choices: The flesh or the devil.

One and the same.

 

[misput]

That's what the end time judgment is for.

I suspect a lot of sorting is happening "today".

 

[Dave L]

Yes. The spiritual gifts have always belonged to the Holy Spirit, and are not given to individuals as skills to do what they please with them. The Holy Spirit manifests the gifts as He will, and He has pretty strict criteria of holiness and sound doctrine as the basis for manifesting them in any environment. The gifts and signs and wonders are not the power of God to save people. Paul teaches that the gospel of Christ crucified and risen again is the power of God leading to salvation to everyone who believes. Many have either forgotten or ignored that.

The gifts expired with the apostles through whom the Holy Spirit administered them. Scripture also mentions two outpourings and nothing more as the means of distribution. Today's gifts are fraudulent and are in no way similar to the originals.

 

[Dave L]

The big question is: Are the manifestations found in the New Testament? If not, then they are not of the Holy Spirit, but of some other spirit.

I have been reading Dave Hunt's book , Occult Invasion, and it has turned some aspects of my Charismatic beliefs right on their heads! Especially the manifestations and teachings that I had determined weren't my cup of tea but I was undecided whether they were of God or not. Now I'm convinced that much of the Charismatic movement has been infected my Hindu mind control and the violent manifestations, such as shaking, nodding of the head side by side, falling down, jerking, hysterical out of control laughter is also manifested by Kundalini Hindu mind control. I have also come to the conclusion that the Word of Faith movement is basically non-Biblical in its core teaching, and it follows the same pattern of the power of the mind, viewing faith as a power in itself, and the positive thinking of Norman Vincent Peale who was right into occult belief, and his best disciple is Robert Schuller, and Kenneth Copeland is in turn his disciple. Kenneth Hagin is reported to be right into the positive confession stuff as well. If the mind can get people what they want, why need God at all?

Also, it seems that in many areas of the Charismatic church, extra-Biblical "revelation" seems to have taken the place of good, intensive Bible study. My view is that if an "inspiration" has not already been inspired in the pages of Scripture then it is non-Biblical and therefore false.

I haven't turned Cessationist yet! Because I believe that God does heal today, not on our terms but His. And that genuine tongues is manifested strictly according to Paul's guidelines, and when it is combined with all the other occult manifestations, then one has to doubt whether it is, in many cases, either in the flesh or part of the occult manifestations.

As you know me, from other posts I have made on CF, this is quite a change-around for me!

The prayer of faith heals. But false teachers credit these miracles to the phony gifts they foster on the unlearned. The signs and wonders of the Apostles expired with them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The gifts expired with the apostles through whom the Holy Spirit administered them. Scripture also mentions two outpourings and nothing more as the means of distribution. Today's gifts are fraudulent and are in no way similar to the originals.

You have always stuck to that view as long as I have known you, so it would be pointless for me to debate the issue with you. I am quite happy to stick with what we do agree on. But (as I think I have said before to you), if you can show me a definite New Testament Scripture that says "Thus says the Lord, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are only temporary, and they will expire when the last apostle dies", then I will concede. Quoting half an obscure verse out of 1 Corinthians 13 is just not good enough for me.

However! (I can't help it_. If the tongues and prophecy part of 1 Corinthians 14expired at the death of the Apostles, so do the whole of 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14, has expired and is not relevant for today. We can't say that part of Paul's teaching is temporary and other parts are permanent. Actually, we could dismiss the whole 1 Corinthians as applying only the the Apostolic age and can ignore it completely! That would be consistent.

 

[Dave L]

You have always stuck to that view as long as I have known you, so it would be pointless for me to debate the issue with you. I am quite happy to stick with what we do agree on. But (as I think I have said before to you), if you can show me a definite New Testament Scripture that says "Thus says the Lord, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are only temporary, and they will expire when the last apostle dies", then I will concede. Quoting half an obscure verse out of 1 Corinthians 13 is just not good enough for me.

However! (I can't help it_. If the tongues and prophecy part of 1 Corinthians 14expired at the death of the Apostles, so do the whole of 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14, has expired and is not relevant for today. We can't say that part of Paul's teaching is temporary and other parts are permanent. Actually, we could dismiss the whole 1 Corinthians as applying only the the Apostolic age and can ignore it completely! That would be consistent.

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4)

Also, scripture does not mention the gifts being distributed beyond the two outpourings, or through the Apostles' hands.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4)

Also, scripture does not mention the gifts being distributed beyond the two outpourings, or through the Apostles' hands.

Did I read this right? "bearing them witness, both with temporary signs and wonders and with diverse miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit manifested only through them"?

So all the church fathers from Polycarp to and including Augustine were false teachers because they supported signs, wonders, miracles, healing and tongues? Therefore we should totally ignore them.

 

[Dave L]

Did I read this right? "bearing them witness, both with temporary signs and wonders and with diverse miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit manifested only through them"?

So all the church fathers from Polycarp to and including Augustine were false teachers because they supported signs, wonders, miracles, healing and tongues? Therefore we should totally ignore them.

The gifts confirmed the Apostles just as the gifts confirmed Moses.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It was not because they were falling around, jerking, shaking, hysterically laughing and nodding violently from side to side. They were joyful and praising God miraculously in their own languages. Because it was early in the morning for such joyfulness and celebration, the only explanation the mockers had were that they were drunk.

If the crowd had seen the type of violent and out of control manifestations as I described, they would have thought they had gone mad and would have called the authorities out to deal with the riotous behaviour. Instead what they saw was a group of people just having a good time with celebration well within the bounds of normal self controlled behaviour.

Yeah the falling on the ground and trembling thing didn't happen to me, (it did to people in the same line where they would lay on hands) I just figured it related to the demon coming out bit in the gospel and kept focusing on receiving God's presence. I think I also missed the animal noises that happened that people were talking about maybe that happened earlier. I do however, remember the gold fillings bit and stuff. I remember a guest speaker that was an anti-KJVer I think in contrast to the KJV only crowd. (the funniest thing he said emphatically was "THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT A BIRD!") I really remember mostly just going there with a friend or a group of people to enjoy the atmosphere and seek God's presence. The message was usually pretty short, so if I didn't like it, no Big.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The big question is: Are the manifestations found in the New Testament? If not, then they are not of the Holy Spirit, but of some other spirit.

I have been reading Dave Hunt's book , Occult Invasion, and it has turned some aspects of my Charismatic beliefs right on their heads! Especially the manifestations and teachings that I had determined weren't my cup of tea but I was undecided whether they were of God or not. Now I'm convinced that much of the Charismatic movement has been infected my Hindu mind control and the violent manifestations, such as shaking, nodding of the head side by side, falling down, jerking, hysterical out of control laughter is also manifested by Kundalini Hindu mind control. I have also come to the conclusion that the Word of Faith movement is basically non-Biblical in its core teaching, and it follows the same pattern of the power of the mind, viewing faith as a power in itself, and the positive thinking of Norman Vincent Peale who was right into occult belief, and his best disciple is Robert Schuller, and Kenneth Copeland is in turn his disciple. Kenneth Hagin is reported to be right into the positive confession stuff as well. If the mind can get people what they want, why need God at all?

Also, it seems that in many areas of the Charismatic church, extra-Biblical "revelation" seems to have taken the place of good, intensive Bible study. My view is that if an "inspiration" has not already been inspired in the pages of Scripture then it is non-Biblical and therefore false.

I haven't turned Cessationist yet! Because I believe that God does heal today, not on our terms but His. And that genuine tongues is manifested strictly according to Paul's guidelines, and when it is combined with all the other occult manifestations, then one has to doubt whether it is, in many cases, either in the flesh or part of the occult manifestations.

As you know me, from other posts I have made on CF, this is quite a change-around for me!

I think it isn't fair to put the Holy Spirit in a box of limitations like that. The Arc of the Covenant was an extraordinary idea, and scripture says times will come when it no longer will be remembered.

All through the two testaments, God did new things, and that style will persist.

Back at the beginning of the Toronto Blessing, John Arnott was recovering from the discouragement of reading Johanna Michaelson's The Beautiful Side of Evil. These books can be blasphemous. They cause people to place more confidence in Satan than in God. There is this idea that you ask for the Holy Spirit but Satan slips in instead.

Having seen Hindu shaking, it looks different and results in different things compared to the Holy Spirit.

People shaking or screeching can have different causations, from the Holy Spirit repeating a suggestion to them, through to a demon manifesting, coming out or attempting to distract or mislead others, and you could always ask them what happened after.

Not so long ago in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal I met a girl who overcame depression by that so called uncontrollable laughter.

Positive thinking by itself is useful. just so long as you do not pray to other gods, pray by body position, ie yoga, and say things like "I am Truth." Jesus taught that the heart is deceitful above all things.

I remember being worried into thinking barking like dogs was not of God. But dogs are no wolves and evil, and they bark on knowing their master is returning.

Only when we surrender to the Holy Spirit within, giving governance of the self to him, can we manifest self control.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Really what matters is that they receive the Holy Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit, in surrender to God and then one fruit is self control.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The Holy Spirit doesn't make people do that, but other spirits do. We need to think about that.

Paul said, "Let everything be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:40)
"And the fruit of the spirit is...self control" (Galatians 5:23).

So, if proceedings are not done decently and in order, and there is no self control in the behaviour of attendees, including the leaders, then the Holy Spirit is not there at all, because He does not contradict Scripture.

The verse about doing things decently and in order refers to the use of vocal gifts. There are various types of church formats, the love feast, the eucharistic service, the great outpouring of Pentecost, the anointing service, deliverance meetings, healing rallies... There were Paul's foundational meetings and Apollos' outpouring meetings, all perfectly right.

Self control only comes founded on His control in surrender to the impartation received of the Holy Spirit within. "And the government shall be upon His shoulders."

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It was not because they were falling around, jerking, shaking, hysterically laughing and nodding violently from side to side. They were joyful and praising God miraculously in their own languages. Because it was early in the morning for such joyfulness and celebration, the only explanation the mockers had were that they were drunk.

If the crowd had seen the type of violent and out of control manifestations as I described, they would have thought they had gone mad and would have called the authorities out to deal with the riotous behaviour. Instead what they saw was a group of people just having a good time with celebration well within the bounds of normal self controlled behaviour.

God is always doing new things, can we really anticipate what sorts of things God will do?

Seeing Carol Arnott shaking her head violently during a message seemed to me to be an expression of how much she did not want to be strict about sin, and warn people. A word from her came in 2106 about a person and a type of person, entering the holy place out of order, in compromise, by having an affair with the secretary elsewhere. People would criticize the revivalists for not preaching repentance from sin, and when they do, they find another reason to. She warned a time would come when they would either run to the altar and repent or run out of the building. Alternatively turn into a pillar of salt.

That is not Hindu or kriyas... the look is a noticeably different and fruit is Biblical.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Positive thinking was a 1980's psychology trend. It helped me repent for the first time when I was young.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Norman Vincent Peale - Wikipedia
Norman Vincent Peale | American religious leader

Where does this mention Hinduism?

Second link is Encyclopaedia Britannica.

Norman Vincent Peale was a peacetime American hero and commended by Billy Graham and president Clinton. His traditions were Wesleyan and Dutch Reformed Church.