The Tree and it's Fruits, the Toronto Blessing?

[GoldenKingGaze]

That’s horrifying. St. Paul demanded that our worship be conducted “decently and in order.”

I'd be surprised if Paul demanded things, raising his voice, at healings taking place in some way...?

Paul taught us freedom, no laws, not like Moses' commands. It would be more like Paul to demand a way to help the poor in health or the hungry.

Paul's decency and order was for the use of spiritual gifts to work better, by them prophesying, one at a time. He did not forbid laughter in church. Somber no laughing services and RCC and later Lutheran and Anglican, in there were orders and danger.

People may begin with reverence but there is also the awesome side of God and we all have come to or aim to love with our whole hearts which is what the Blessing of the Father's Heart is much about. I have been in a few of these meetings, after being in RCC Charismatic meetings.

I have also been in Taize meetings, and receiving living water in one, made me want to be boisterous and I was corrected. Later in Full Gospel meetings I came to like boisterous petition and intercessions not in unison but all together and free worded.

Services from Paul's time until perhaps John Wesley did not record the actions of God's people receiving the Holy Spirit. And some of it was intended to criticize, "Holy Rollers", "Methodists". And there were the Quakers, and the amazing Azusa St phenomena. Descriptions from better writers than me like Guy Chevreau who used church history and referred to ecstasies experienced over days by those in former revivals, but not as laughter, but surely it was the same thing.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But scripture does not support this = false movement.

In my recent poll, no one thought scripture the NT and OT turns out to be the perfect thing to come.

Because the perfect "thing?" can be God the thing, in Greek neuter. Such as living water, mouth, breath...

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-perfect-thing-to-come-jesus-or-the-whole-bible.8287937/

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Wesley's revival had some unusual manifestations, holy rolling... and the fruits are clear in hindsight. What are they?
And the Toronto Blessing is now decades old. What are the fruits to observe and determine the nature of this tree? According to Jesus, you can tell a tree by it's fruit.
Out of this movement I have been inspired and set free from a whole area of sin. One lady we prayed for, said she had no more pain. Some find holy rolling... offensive.

What say you?

The fruit of the Spirit involves self control. What this means that people who are not self controlled in what they do, cannot be in the Holy Spirit. There were aspects of the Toronto blessing where there was a lot of behaviour that lacked self control and yet they believed that they were being moved by the Holy Spirit.

We see the same bizarre behaviour in the Brownsville "revival" people falling all over the place, violently nodding their heads from side to side, splashing about in the baptistry like out of control idiots are being moved by some kind of spirit but it ain't no Holy Spirit.

I saw a clip where Kenneth Hagin was running a worship time. He was hissing at people like a snake (??!!) and people were sliding off their chairs and slithering along the floor. People were barking like dogs, and one was on his hands and knees being led like a dog on a leash. Another crazy guy jumped up ran up, over the stage and jumped right over the pulpit. There was a total lack of self control in that meeting. Hagin himself was so "drunk in the spirit" (certainly not the Holy Spirit) that he had to be supported by a man on each side of him.

None of this nonsense is of the Holy Spirit, and it is a disgrace and it is demeaning the true Gospel of Christ.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The fruit of the Spirit involves self control. What this means that people who are not self controlled in what they do, cannot be in the Holy Spirit. There were aspects of the Toronto blessing where there was a lot of behaviour that lacked self control and yet they believed that they were being moved by the Holy Spirit.

We see the same bizarre behaviour in the Brownsville "revival" people falling all over the place, violently nodding their heads from side to side, splashing about in the baptistry like out of control idiots are being moved by some kind of spirit but it ain't no Holy Spirit.

I saw a clip where Kenneth Hagin was running a worship time. He was hissing at people like a snake (??!!) and people were sliding off their chairs and slithering along the floor. People were barking like dogs, and one was on his hands and knees being led like a dog on a leash. Another crazy guy jumped up ran up, over the stage and jumped right over the pulpit. There was a total lack of self control in that meeting. Hagin himself was so "drunk in the spirit" (certainly not the Holy Spirit) that he had to be supported by a man on each side of him.

None of this nonsense is of the Holy Spirit, and it is a disgrace and it is demeaning the true Gospel of Christ.

Self control, the fruit of the Spirit is based upon accepting the Holy Spirit and surrendering oneself to God within. In that sense, it is not self control but surrender, or dying the seed. Then as from Isaiah, the government is upon His shoulders. People making animal noises, may sometimes be embarrassed but confess that it was benevolent. People would come out of phenomena more in love with God, which is something only God will do, not the flesh or Satan. My OP question is about these who love God twenty years later. This can be compared to the results of Wesley's revival in some fashion.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Self control, the fruit of the Spirit is based upon accepting the Holy Spirit and surrendering oneself to God within. In that sense, it is not self control but surrender, or dying the seed. Then as from Isaiah, the government is upon His shoulders. People making animal noises, may sometimes be embarrassed but confess that it was benevolent. People would come out of phenomena more in love with God, which is something only God will do, not the flesh or Satan. My OP question is about these who love God twenty years later. This can be compared to the results of Wesley's revival in some fashion.

What I saw in Youtube videos of the disgraceful conduct purporting to be of the Holy Spirit, was inspired by some kind of spirit, but definitely not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not cause people to behave like wingnut bananatown wackydoodles. Paul said that everything should be done decently and in order, and these "halleluhah hootenannies" were definitely not decent and in order, but full of people being totally out of control.

People might feel they are more in love with God, but which God? If they disobeyed the command of Christ through Paul to do everything decently and in order and to be self controlled, then they are not in love with the God of the Bible, but with a god dreamed up out of their own imagination, which is a form idolatry.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

What I saw in Youtube videos of the disgraceful conduct purporting to be of the Holy Spirit, was inspired by some kind of spirit, but definitely not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not cause people to behave like wingnut bananatown wackydoodles. Paul said that everything should be done decently and in order, and these "halleluhah hootenannies" were definitely not decent and in order, but full of people being totally out of control.

People might feel they are more in love with God, but which God? If they disobeyed the command of Christ through Paul to do everything decently and in order and to be self controlled, then they are not in love with the God of the Bible, but with a god dreamed up out of their own imagination, which is a form idolatry.

God the Holy Trinity, Jesus the Christ. Slap stick worship is something I heard of in the OT, and there was David's dance his wife rejected, so she had no offspring at his word. Zany and drunken behviour is part of humanity, we are not Vulcans and don't have to be Stoic. Decently and in order according to Paul not the priests, at one point, fearsome, no Holy Spirit in the mass. Self control to do what you want and not God's wants is not what the Bible is expressing. Joy and love while sitting still, is not what Paul by his command meant. Even remember and obey is not quite it. Express your heart, righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and love.

And now, 25 years later, do they worship idols, take drugs, speed... or better things, missions, conversions, reverence and love for each other?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God the Holy Trinity, Jesus the Christ. Slap stick worship is something I heard of in the OT, and there was David's dance his wife rejected, so she had no offspring at his word. Zany and drunken behviour is part of humanity, we are not Vulcans and don't have to be Stoic. Decently and in order according to Paul not the priests, at one point, fearsome, no Holy Spirit in the mass. Self control to do what you want and not God's wants is not what the Bible is expressing. Joy and love while sitting still, is not what Paul by his command meant. Even remember and obey is not quite it. Express your heart, righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and love.

And now, 25 years later, do they worship idols, take drugs, speed... or better things, missions, conversions, reverence and love for each other?

Oh well, if you support people violently shaking their heads from side to side, walking on all fours barking like dogs, running around the venue jumping up on the stage and over the pulpit, spending three quarters of an hour repeating "send the oil" like a pagan incantation, splashing around in the baptistry like a crazy idiot, slithering around the floor like snakes, and sliding off their seats on to the floor, and call that the Holy Spirit, you are welcome to it. Just make sure that you have your excuses ready when you have to account to Jesus Christ at the judgment.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Oh well, if you support people violently shaking their heads from side to side, walking on all fours barking like dogs, running around the venue jumping up on the stage and over the pulpit, spending three quarters of an hour repeating "send the oil" like a pagan incantation, splashing around in the baptistry like a crazy idiot, slithering around the floor like snakes, and sliding off their seats on to the floor, and call that the Holy Spirit, you are welcome to it. Just make sure that you have your excuses ready when you have to account to Jesus Christ at the judgment.

My OP question is about the fruit. Daniel Kolenda taking over CFAN after Reinhard, the genuine love and Holy Spirit words and power that wins Africans, and other missions less well known, and Heidi and Roland Baker in Mozambique, the testimonies of many healings in Global Awakening. The writing of worship music, including Hillsong. Titles like, "There is more." The unity and non violence of many Pentecostal preachers, USA, Canada, UK, Australia, NZ, Germany, Hungary, Nigeria, China... So I had to say it myself about fruit, but was looking for more small church anecdotes.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My OP question is about the fruit. Daniel Kolenda taking over CFAN after Reinhard, the genuine love and Holy Spirit words and power that wins Africans, and other missions less well known, and Heidi and Roland Baker in Mozambique, the testimonies of many healings in Global Awakening. The writing of worship music, including Hillsong. Titles like, "There is more." The unity and non violence of many Pentecostal preachers, USA, Canada, UK, Australia, NZ, Germany, Hungary, Nigeria, China... So I had to say it myself about fruit, but was looking for more small church anecdotes.

Fair enough.