The Tree and it's Fruits, the Toronto Blessing?

Disclaimer - not having read the whole thread. First impression - Toronto Blessing - as Church History?

It's something I have some experience with and knowledge about.

I'm not interested in judging the movement or particular persons in it. What I will say is that such trends in various manifestations are common in newer and especially charismatic-leaning groups.

I am sure that in each of these movements and groups, there are sincere and well-meaning and God-loving people at the core, doing the best according to their understanding and conscience at the start. And God can and does work with people in such situations. So I am not surprised to see people experience healing and for there to be conversions. Glory to God!

I also see, almost without fail (actually I can't offhand think of a single exception, but there may be) ... a decline as more folks get involved and there are no real doctrinal "fences" to keep the flock safe.

Odd manifestations happen. They may be caused by any number of things, but the human person is easily influenced by emotion and that often plays a part, with or without Holy or unholy spiritual influence. Also the emotional and pleasurable aspects can lead to a sort of "addiction" to such things, or seeking them for their own sake, even in a person who is telling themselves not to fall into that.

Also I see schisms happen. Believers fall apart from one another. It may be necessary to separate due to real problematic practices and beliefs, but it may also be a strong temptation to pride or strongly feed pride, which can be spiritually deadly. It's a very bad situation for many, and it essentially always happens. Where is the healing of this, and the care for souls in the process? No one is taking care of it.

And I also sadly see serious moral failures result in some, scandalizing the flock. Again, this may be for a number of reasons. Maybe having fame and opportunity and wealth drag some people into too much temptation. Maybe the enemy does target them because they are both easier at that point and have the potential to damage many others. I don't know. But again, such movements tend to lack the foundation of Christianity through the ages that might have protected them, as well as oversight.

God will use whatever He can, because people can be benefited spiritually and healed physically, and even brought to salvation. God is love.

But there are problems within such movements, and the enemy will use those as well, to as great a degree as he finds us willing to allow him, and people can be destroyed in the process as well.

Overall I think a lack of protection and knowledge is the reason such movements can tip a bit more to the negative outcome than we would like to see.

But I do believe they are sincere at the core. Only lacking in knowledge, maybe because they often think they are discovering something "new" and so think there is no knowledge to be had.


Forgive me if I offend anyone. For what it's worth, these are my observations from decades of involvement and observation of others who I know/knew very well spirituallywho have been involved.

The Toronto Blessing made its way into some of our churches along the great lakes. We visited a church that was doing it and it was crazy for a lack of better words. People making animals sounds, walking like animals around the church. People standing in pews screaming or laughing. Even the preacher.

Ah ... read a few more posts. Not going to get into this whole thing.

Some folks might be interested in what has REALLY happened in Church history. Forget the Protestant polemics against Rome and false history. There ARE polemics against Rome - they came from the other four major sees of the early Church. Best to forget Constantine in this particular matter too ... lots of historical falsehoods.

The Church didn't die, and didn't fall away. It schismed - Rome and the other four became separated over Rome's innovations and grabs for power. (From the point of view of the rest.)

The "gifts" never died. But notice they were being performed by the Apostles and by people wholly devoted to God. PEOPLE fell away and became lax, particularly when persecutions ended. God doesn't work great graces through people who are not "filled with the Holy Spirit" (I don't mean just believing, but LIVING the faith ... remember the Scriptures point out certain people on this way.)

The gifts HAVE continued, but there are not many such people. Usually after persecutions they separated themselves unto God. There is and has been always some who have been wholly devoted to Him, and God continues to work through them into this day. They just don't make a big deal out of it and don't actually want people to know. You aren't going to see them on tv or surrounded by millions of followers. They want their time with God and don't want the praise of any men, so they aren't tempted to pride. But they have always been there.

Anyway. That information is out there to find. Forgive me, but since this is "Church History" I wanted to see these things added in somewhere, in case anyone is interested.

God be with us all.

~Anastasia~ said:

Disclaimer - not having read the whole thread. First impression - Toronto Blessing - as Church History?

It's something I have some experience with and knowledge about.

I'm not interested in judging the movement or particular persons in it. What I will say is that such trends in various manifestations are common in newer and especially charismatic-leaning groups.

I am sure that in each of these movements and groups, there are sincere and well-meaning and God-loving people at the core, doing the best according to their understanding and conscience at the start. And God can and does work with people in such situations. So I am not surprised to see people experience healing and for there to be conversions. Glory to God!

I also see, almost without fail (actually I can't offhand think of a single exception, but there may be) ... a decline as more folks get involved and there are no real doctrinal "fences" to keep the flock safe.

Odd manifestations happen. They may be caused by any number of things, but the human person is easily influenced by emotion and that often plays a part, with or without Holy or unholy spiritual influence. Also the emotional and pleasurable aspects can lead to a sort of "addiction" to such things, or seeking them for their own sake, even in a person who is telling themselves not to fall into that.

Also I see schisms happen. Believers fall apart from one another. It may be necessary to separate due to real problematic practices and beliefs, but it may also be a strong temptation to pride or strongly feed pride, which can be spiritually deadly. It's a very bad situation for many, and it essentially always happens. Where is the healing of this, and the care for souls in the process? No one is taking care of it.

And I also sadly see serious moral failures result in some, scandalizing the flock. Again, this may be for a number of reasons. Maybe having fame and opportunity and wealth drag some people into too much temptation. Maybe the enemy does target them because they are both easier at that point and have the potential to damage many others. I don't know. But again, such movements tend to lack the foundation of Christianity through the ages that might have protected them, as well as oversight.

God will use whatever He can, because people can be benefited spiritually and healed physically, and even brought to salvation. God is love.

But there are problems within such movements, and the enemy will use those as well, to as great a degree as he finds us willing to allow him, and people can be destroyed in the process as well.

Overall I think a lack of protection and knowledge is the reason such movements can tip a bit more to the negative outcome than we would like to see.

But I do believe they are sincere at the core. Only lacking in knowledge, maybe because they often think they are discovering something "new" and so think there is no knowledge to be had.


Forgive me if I offend anyone. For what it's worth, these are my observations from decades of involvement and observation of others who I know/knew very well spirituallywho have been involved.

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Excellent analysis!

GoldenKingGaze said:

Wesley's revival had some unusual manifestations, holy rolling... and the fruits are clear in hindsight. What are they?
And the Toronto Blessing is now decades old. What are the fruits to observe and determine the nature of this tree? According to Jesus, you can tell a tree by it's fruit.
Out of this movement I have been inspired and set free from a whole area of sin. One lady we prayed for, said she had no more pain. Some find holy rolling... offensive.

What say you?

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Cessationism versus continuationism is probably not an ideal place to start when discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works in each and everyone of us differently and most importantly with no confusion. That being said, "unusual manifestations" cause confusion and thus may not be from the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, a miracle could be considered unusual however it does not cause confusion. It is very important to read scripture beyond what Paul say's about the gifts. It is wise as a Berean to read what Jesus Christ of Nazareth said:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This message can only be directed to those who live for manifestations and miracles. These are the people who take no care in "testing the spirit" to see if it is from God. The burden is on this group to do what is mandated "test every spirit to see if it is from God." (1 John 4:1) As you can read, Christ specifically calls out the "signs and wonders" movement by name. This is what should concern you the most that maybe just maybe Jesus Christ of Nazareth will say "I never knew you".
Blessings

Take heed and rest assured, God will will sort it all out.

I think it would be wise to watch where one cast theirs pearls. Faith... if you do not believe.. you will not see anything. Faith works both ways. Let not that man think he will get ANYTHING from God...doubt. And this comes down to the classic "what that word really means.. what that verse is really saying". Personal belief seems to come 1st with some.

I have had so many things happen in my life.. and so many were just blind faith. Faith works both ways..as He said.. if you doubt let not that man think He will get anything from God..doubt. So many things talked about on this site.. asked about. What I noticed is .. you NEVER read where someone prayed seek the Father and asked....and hearing "Jesus told me" <---that alone would get some FEED back lol. Do we not say JESUS IS REAL? Where is He? In us? One with us? Where is this HOLY spirit? That one asked the Father for as written in Luke. Luke...Oh we quote John 3:16 Rom 10 9-10..but LUKE seems to be.. na.. we dont do that. You know in my NAME..cast out demons.. speak with NEW tongues etc.

Be like talking about GOLD FALLING. Did not that happen during that time? I NEVER give that any thought. Nor did this other man that was in Israel. Where some Jewish Rabbi was sitting next to him..but had his back to him.. duh he was a gentle . As they were talking.. I forget how this came up..but talked about gold falling and that he didnt believe it. The old Rabbi turns.. and starts to studder.. says..GOLD? Gold falling on the gentles? Oh I must go.. I have to go.. the messiah is coming.. runs off with his grand daughter... hmm

When we read hear about these preachers and things they said.. or do.. we talk about them when they are not here? Do we reach out and talk to them if we think they are in error? HAHA as if OUR truth.. our personal belief is the REAL GOSPEL? See I am no one.. not sure if I would be believed.. well I have reached out to two.. the world would know. Well I was on some forum and they were going on and on about something Oral Roberts said. When he was alive. Well my 1st thought was.. hes not here. So me being no one.. reached out to him..and talked to the man himself about what they were going on and on about and it was NOT nice...

Well if just ONE of them would have asked like I did.. it was NOTHING like they were going on about.. So I have listen to many many preachers.. I just dont agree with everything they teach. I look for, listen for "Jesus came in the flesh.. born of virgin Mary.. died on the cross for the worlds sins.. was buried. Rose the 3rd day and is the only way to the Father...that to me matters.

We cant save anyone.. do we love each other as He loves us? Man we are to LOVE our enemy... as HE LOVES US.. love our enemy like that. We treat our FAMILY better and some of those dont believe in Jesus and we NEVER give up on them nor talk about them .. like we do people we never meet only saw some video or read some book they read..

JESUS is real.. I mean REAL! Please hear me.. when you hug your spouse your best friend your kids.. do you know JESUS better than that? YOU CAN! HE is IN YOU! Do you say GOOD MORNING? Good night? Do you even care? forgive me if I offended

Dave L said:

Part of the great falling away?

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The big question is: Are the manifestations found in the New Testament? If not, then they are not of the Holy Spirit, but of some other spirit.

I have been reading Dave Hunt's book , Occult Invasion, and it has turned some aspects of my Charismatic beliefs right on their heads! Especially the manifestations and teachings that I had determined weren't my cup of tea but I was undecided whether they were of God or not. Now I'm convinced that much of the Charismatic movement has been infected my Hindu mind control and the violent manifestations, such as shaking, nodding of the head side by side, falling down, jerking, hysterical out of control laughter is also manifested by Kundalini Hindu mind control. I have also come to the conclusion that the Word of Faith movement is basically non-Biblical in its core teaching, and it follows the same pattern of the power of the mind, viewing faith as a power in itself, and the positive thinking of Norman Vincent Peale who was right into occult belief, and his best disciple is Robert Schuller, and Kenneth Copeland is in turn his disciple. Kenneth Hagin is reported to be right into the positive confession stuff as well. If the mind can get people what they want, why need God at all?

Also, it seems that in many areas of the Charismatic church, extra-Biblical "revelation" seems to have taken the place of good, intensive Bible study. My view is that if an "inspiration" has not already been inspired in the pages of Scripture then it is non-Biblical and therefore false.

I haven't turned Cessationist yet! Because I believe that God does heal today, not on our terms but His. And that genuine tongues is manifested strictly according to Paul's guidelines, and when it is combined with all the other occult manifestations, then one has to doubt whether it is, in many cases, either in the flesh or part of the occult manifestations.

As you know me, from other posts I have made on CF, this is quite a change-around for me!

Dave L said:

In the end times there will be lying signs and wonders. But Jesus will tell many who claim such to depart from him, he never knew them.

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This is quite true, and it may be that Charismatics will be deceived because they believe that everything supernatural has to be of the Holy Spirit, and that signs and wonders are their gospel, rather than the gospel of Christ. The signs and wonders gospel may very well be the preacher of another Christ that is not found in the New Testament. When we look at the violent manifestations and out of control jerking, shaking, falling down, trances, violent nodding of the head, these cannot be natural. To achieve that type of manifestation it has be from a supernatural influence, but not of the Holy Spirit.

GoldenKingGaze said:

But Dave, the gifts are not only revived among protestants, the Catholic church dating back to the first century Rome holds them to have continued. So how by continuation can it be said that continuationists are falling away?

Love is at the centre of scripture and the Toronto Blessing.

Millions of people come to worship the Holy Trinity because of these gifts. Do new Burkina Faso converts fall away as they become Christians? If you look into it, how they live, and suffer persecution in and yet stay in the fold?

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The question is, are they professing Christians because they have had the gospel of Christ crucified, shed His blood for their sin, and risen again preached to them, or have they made a decision for Christ based on the manifestations and the "signs and wonders'? If we asked them what the gospel of Christ, would they be able to answer it correctly? That is the question...

Dave L said:

People take the genuine miracles provided thorough the prayer of faith, and try to sell "knock-off" gifts claiming they were the source. Listen to scripture. Stop chasing rumors and claims that have no scriptural basis.

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Yes. The spiritual gifts have always belonged to the Holy Spirit, and are not given to individuals as skills to do what they please with them. The Holy Spirit manifests the gifts as He will, and He has pretty strict criteria of holiness and sound doctrine as the basis for manifesting them in any environment. The gifts and signs and wonders are not the power of God to save people. Paul teaches that the gospel of Christ crucified and risen again is the power of God leading to salvation to everyone who believes. Many have either forgotten or ignored that.

Dave L said:

But if the gifts are phony, who is behind them?

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We have one of two choices: The flesh or the devil.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Wesley's revival had some unusual manifestations, holy rolling... and the fruits are clear in hindsight. What are they?
And the Toronto Blessing is now decades old. What are the fruits to observe and determine the nature of this tree? According to Jesus, you can tell a tree by it's fruit.
Out of this movement I have been inspired and set free from a whole area of sin. One lady we prayed for, said she had no more pain. Some find holy rolling... offensive.

What say you?

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I'd say go visit it, (the actual congregation of the namesake) and see what it's like now.

I liked what it was in the late 1990s, but not so much what it is now.

as the scripture says, don't despise prophesying, keep what is good, and discard what is evil.

what matters is what we can take away from it, and apply in terms of christlikeness.

Brian Mcnamee said:

HI if you look today at Copeland and the things he is teaching you can see he was trying to form the global one world religion and endorses a guy named Tony Palmer and prayers for his success in unifying the protestants churches with Rome. Palmer died shortly after this. Another scriptural evidence is that false teaches are associated with covetousness. #1 on richest pastors is Copeland # 5 Duplantis.


Top 15 Richest and most Successful Pastors In the World (We promise that #1 will shock you)

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Copeland is a false teacher who is teaching Hindu mind power techniques.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Church unity is a good idea, much better than infighting. And Copeland has always said he believes in prosperous living. It is a Bible promise to the reverential like Joseph in Egypt. People who give to his ministry know this. Some of his possessions are used for service and recreation, like a car.

Coveting means wanting something that is not your to have.

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If you examine his teachings you will find that the origins of it do not come from the New Testament but from Eastern Mystic mind power and control techniques. He follows the teaching of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller who have openly said that they fully believe in pagan Hinduism and have clearly said that it is good to merge that teaching with Christian theology.

misput said:

Take heed and rest assured, God will will sort it all out.

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That's what the end time judgment is for.

GoldenKingGaze said:

But we need the gifts. The church really lost them because of tremendous trials. It was not established and then no longer needed them. The church buckled. Sola Scriptura does not point to a complete Bible but to prophecy and so much so to the Spirit, like the TANACH pointed to Jesus. To follow the pointing is like getting onto a ship from the dock or vice versa.

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The church lost them because the Emperor Constantine had a vision of the cross over the battlefield which enabled him to win the battle and as a result adopted the "badge" of Christian profession as well as remaining a pagan. When he took over the leadership of the church in Rome, he merged his pagan rituals and ceremonies with the worship and because of this, and the great influx of pagan "nominal" believers into the church, caused the supernatural gifts to decline because the Holy Spirit does not have fellowship with paganism.

NothingIsImpossible said:

The Toronto Blessing made its way into some of our churches along the great lakes. We visited a church that was doing it and it was crazy for a lack of better words. People making animals sounds, walking like animals around the church. People standing in pews screaming or laughing. Even the preacher.

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The Holy Spirit doesn't make people do that, but other spirits do. We need to think about that.

Paul said, "Let everything be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:40)
"And the fruit of the spirit is...self control" (Galatians 5:23).

So, if proceedings are not done decently and in order, and there is no self control in the behaviour of attendees, including the leaders, then the Holy Spirit is not there at all, because He does not contradict Scripture.

Oscarr said:

The Holy Spirit doesn't make people do that, but other spirits do. We need to think about that.

Paul said, "Let everything be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:40)
"And the fruit of the spirit is...self control" (Galatians 5:23).

So, if proceedings are not done decently and in order, and there is no self control in the behaviour of attendees, including the leaders, then the Holy Spirit is no there at all, because He does not contradict Scripture.

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In Acts when Pentecost happened, people thought the people speaking the message in their own tongue were drunk. Peter explained that they were in fact not drunk, but this illustrates from scripture, how it can look that way.