The Torah is still valid..

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Not true...The Ten HUNG from the Two. = the Two Preexisted them....

“On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:40)

it is the same thing

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They did not. They tried to kill Paul for teaching against it.

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:16)

He was speaking to those KEEPING it, AGAINST the Pagans who were judging them

 

[Dave L]

He was speaking to those KEEPING it, AGAINST the Pagans who were judging them

““Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.” (Acts 15:19–20)

Why no Sabbath?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

““Therefore I conclude that we should not cause extra difficulty for those among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things defiled by idols and from sexual immorality and from what has been strangled and from blood.” (Acts 15:19–20)

Why no Sabbath?

Those are the Noahide Laws. AS USUAL...you left out the next line... Acts 15:21
"For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath"

 

[Dave L]

Those are the Noahide Laws. AS USUAL...you left out the next line... Acts 15:21
"For Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath"

Yes, but no orders to attend. If they want to learn about the law, go there.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, but no orders to attend. If they want to learn about the law, go there.

it is implied...otherwise here would be no reason to add that

 

[salt-n-light]

..for whom it was originally intended for, i.e. the Jewish People.

Jesus says in Matthew 24 (NRSV) about the end times (which of course comes after Jesus' crucifixion)

“So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17 the one on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah! or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Jesus says the Sabbath is still valid.

Seventh day Adventist?

 

[Dave L]

it is implied...otherwise here would be no reason to add that

Regardless, the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (the Ten Commandments) and you must denounce the New to embrace any part of the Old.

 

[AlexDTX]

..for whom it was originally intended for, i.e. the Jewish People.

Jesus says in Matthew 24 (NRSV) about the end times (which of course comes after Jesus' crucifixion)

“So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17 the one on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah! or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Jesus says the Sabbath is still valid.

Jesus died to the Old Covenant.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law, [i.e. the Jews]) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.​

Paul explained to the Jewish believers that if the husband (Christ) is dead, then the wife (the Jews) are no longer bound by the Mosaic covenant. The prophets make it clear that God was the husband of Israel.

Isa_54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.​

And that Israel was a treacherous wife who forsook her husband.

Jer_3:20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.​

And that God was divorcing Israel, i.e., the Mosaic Covenant.

Jer_3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.​

Does the covenant of Moses remain in in effect then? Actually, yes, but it is one sided since God has forsaken that covenant. And to try and live by that covenant is certain everlasting death since it is impossible to keep. Which is why God offered them (and us to participate in) a new covenant, fulfilled by Christ. The law is spiritual, right and good. It is useful as a reminder and guideline, but no one can earn their salvation through obedience to the law. Only Jesus could, and he gives us his victory freely. I don't understand why anyone continues to argue that we should obey the law (never applied to gentiles by God, either), or insist that Israel still has the Mosaic Covenant as a separate salvation with God. They do not. If they reject Christ they will suffer the second death in the Lake of Fire along with everyone else who rejects Christ's salvation.

 

[Tree of Life]

..for whom it was originally intended for, i.e. the Jewish People.

Jesus says in Matthew 24 (NRSV) about the end times (which of course comes after Jesus' crucifixion)

“So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17 the one on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18 the one in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah! or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Jesus says the Sabbath is still valid.

Most Christian denominations believe that the Sabbath is still valid for believers today. This is very different from saying that there is a separate people of God for whom all of the OT Revelation is still binding without the modification that Christ brings to it.

 

[Rubiks]

Seventh day Adventist?

Nope.

I just try to let the Bible speak for itself. I think we need to drop our assumptions of what the Bible should say. If the Bible leads us to theology some Christians are quick to shout heresy, so be it.

 

[Dave L]

Most Christian denominations believe that the Sabbath is still valid for believers today. This is very different from saying that there is a separate people of God for whom all of the OT Revelation is still binding without the modification that Christ brings to it.

I think this is true of the institutional churches that need to control the unbelievers in their ranks. But Christ's body of believers is the church. And we have the two Great Commandments written in our hearts.

 

[Halbhh]

the ten commandments are done away and abolished as a ministration in 2 Cor 3. The Sabbath included. When OT prophets and Jesus speak to the Jews, they use language that they can understand. Even if in the future the meanings are fulfilled.

Rather, Paul wrote--

8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13)

 

[Tree of Life]

I think this is true of the institutional churches that need to control the unbelievers in their ranks. But Christ's body of believers is the church. And we have the two Great Commandments written in our hearts.

The two great commandments are in no way opposed or contrary to the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are an elaboration of the two great commandments.

 

[Kaon]

Agreed, the 7th day. Is that my 7th or yours? Calendar wasn't the same as it is today. You labor for 6 days and rest on the 7th, but as the Church is no longer a country as was Israel, a single day is not established.

The Most High God told us how to determine what day is the first day of the first month of the new year - and from there count six days. Then another seven. And so on.

Julian/Gregorian calendar systems and names based on gods and men are all invention of creation; the Creator gave us a cosmos for a timepiece.

 

[salt-n-light]

Nope.

I just try to let the Bible speak for itself. I think we need to drop our assumptions of what the Bible should say. If the Bible leads us to theology some Christians are quick to shout heresy, so be it.

Uh huh.

 

[Kaon]

Can anyone name one place where the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself actually says that His Law is abolished, that we can disobey His Laws and Statutes, and that it has been legitimately been made void?

I keep asking this question, and no one has been able to show where the Authority on the Law actually gives us permission to break the least of His commandments. Just one place where God, or [the Word of] God actually says that His Law has been abolished or set aside. I am actually serious in this request.

 

[Tomb523]

The Most High God told us how to determine what day is the first day of the first month of the new year - and from there count six days. Then another seven. And so on.

Julian/Gregorian calendar systems and names based on gods and men are all invention of creation; the Creator gave us a cosmos for a timepiece.

OK then, so what day is it?

I also believe Jesus clarified many things including this. God doesn't need rest, but he rested from creation. Jesus says it was made for man. God, in my considered and prayer opinion intended us to take one day a week to rest from our normal toils and look to Him and all He did for us, His creation. It's not a day of the week, but a day for us to reflect and give thanks. It's great if we can all do that together, but we live in the world governed more and more by secular influences. We must keep the intent of the law, but the rule of law itself is not enforced.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Regardless, the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant (the Ten Commandments) and you must denounce the New to embrace any part of the Old.

You have proved you know neither...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Which is why God offered them (and us to participate in) a new covenant, fulfilled by Christ. The law is spiritual, right and good. It is useful as a reminder and guideline, but no one can earn their salvation through obedience to the law. Only Jesus could, and he gives us his victory freely. If they reject Christ they will suffer the second death in the Lake of Fire along with everyone else who rejects Christ's salvation.

No one here is arguing that. What IS the new Covenant? Jeremiah 31:31-34

I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more