The third chapter of John

[janxharris]

Actually, all He said was that the one who believes in Him will live. Please stop adding to scripture.

So ignore the fact that He has just said that He is the resurrection and the life and just believe 'Him'? Believe what? Strip away His miracles, signs and wonders (the resurrection being the climax of all such events) and believe what?

 

[janxharris]

John 3:2
He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

 

[Hammster]

So ignore the fact that He has just said that He is the resurrection and the life and just believe 'Him'? Believe what? Strip away His miracles, signs and wonders (the resurrection being the climax of all such events) and believe what?

No. I'm just taking Him at face value without trying to squeeze my theology into it. Unfortunately, you cannot say the same.

 

[janxharris]

No. I'm just taking Him at face value without trying to squeeze my theology into it. Unfortunately, you cannot say the same.

You are clearly squeezing out what is obviously awkward. Bearing in mind http://www.christianforums.com/t7840224/#post66259582, believe in what?

 

[janxharris]

Matthew 11:21
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."

Miracles, such as Jesus' resurrection accredit Him. Jesus tells us to believe Him through such signs so that we may have eternal life. To suggest that some people were excluded would make Jesus' call to believe pointless.

 

[White Butterfly]

This was simply an example of Jesus telling them that Faith was needed for them to experience the miracles....
Belief doesn't always mean Faith 'in' God. There are those in believe, but a credit that belief to themselves, thus it is not Faith 'in' God.Ones belief has to be in God.

 

[White Butterfly]

Hearing the Word produces faith.The 'living' Rhema word.

 

[Hammster]

You are clearly squeezing out what is obviously awkward. Bearing in mind http://www.christianforums.com/t7840224/#post66259582, believe in what?

Exactly how am I squeezing anything out? What exactly have I said that doesn't align with what Jesus said?

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 11:21
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."

Miracles, such as Jesus' resurrection accredit Him. Jesus tells us to believe Him through such signs so that we may have eternal life. To suggest that some people were excluded would make Jesus' call to believe pointless.

This is really becoming quite sad. Do you think this stuff up in advance, or just make it up as you go?

If you read John 6, you'll see at the beginning all of those thousands that "believed" in Him because of miracles. How many were left by the end of the chapter?

 

[janxharris]

This is really becoming quite sad. Do you think this stuff up in advance, or just make it up as you go?

If you read John 6, you'll see at the beginning all of those thousands that "believed" in Him because of miracles. How many were left by the end of the chapter?

Do Arminians deny that falling away is possible?

 

[janxharris]

Exactly how am I squeezing anything out? What exactly have I said that doesn't align with what Jesus said?

'Believe in what' came prior.

 

[Hammster]

Do Arminians deny that falling away is possible?

So they were all saved, those that followed Him because of miracles?

 

[Hammster]

'Believe in what' came prior.

You made an accusation. Please either back it up, or retract it.

 

[janxharris]

You made an accusation. Please either back it up, or retract it.

John 11:21-27
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Jesus', 'Do you believe this,' entailed more than just a vague 'believing in Him', but specifically believing that Lazarus would rise again. We know this because Jesus later rebukes Martha for her lack of faith, referring back to when they spoke before:

John 11:38-40
Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.” Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

By extension, we are to believe in all aspects of Jesus' life in order that we may say we believe in Him. Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead necessarily entails believing that such an event had a relevance for oneself - after all, we are not to believe that Jesus rose from the dead for someone other than ourselves, are we?

 

[Hammster]

John 11:21-27
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Jesus', 'Do you believe this,' entailed more than just a vague 'believing in Him', but specifically believing that Lazarus would rise again. We know this because Jesus later rebukes Martha for her lack of faith, referring back to when they spoke before:

John 11:38-40
Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.” Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

By extension, we are to believe in all aspects of Jesus' life in order that we may say we believe in Him. Believing that God raised Jesus from the dead necessarily entails believing that such an event had a relevance for oneself - after all, we are not to believe that Jesus rose from the dead for someone other than ourselves, are we?

There was no "vague" believing in Him. "The one who believes in me will live," is not vague. And there was nothing said about believing specifically that Lazarus would raise from the dead. How you could get this flipped around so badly is beyond me. And yet you accuse me of squeezing out a meaning.

Why not just take the text at face value, unless you are trying to keep your theology propped up?

 

[janxharris]

There was no "vague" believing in Him. "The one who believes in me will live," is not vague. And there was nothing said about believing specifically that Lazarus would raise from the dead. How you could get this flipped around so badly is beyond me. And yet you accuse me of squeezing out a meaning.

Why not just take the text at face value, unless you are trying to keep your theology propped up?

On the contrary, Jesus rebukes Martha for her lack of faith because she points out the absolute fact of Lazarus' death by mentioning that there will be a bad smell. He links this to their earlier conversation about believing in Him. She doubted Jesus by doubting a specific thing that He said He could and would do.

vv.39-40
“Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.” Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

vv.25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

If believing in Him is not vague (as you say), then you will easily furnish us with a definition no doubt?

 

[Hammster]

On the contrary, Jesus rebukes Martha for her lack of faith because she points out the absolute fact of Lazarus' death by mentioning that there will be a bad smell. He links this to their earlier conversation about believing in Him. She doubted Jesus by doubting a specific thing that He said He could and would do.

vv.39-40
“Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odour, for he has been there four days.” Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

vv.25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

If believing in Him is not vague (as you say), then you will easily furnish us with a definition no doubt?

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

That's not vague. And no mention of Lazarus.

 

[janxharris]

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

That's not vague. And no mention of Lazarus.

You are quite wrong. Jesus rebukes her specifically for not believing that He could raise Lazarus. She points out the absolute fact of his deadness by voicing concern over the smell. Then He says:

“Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

This refers to their previous conversation where Jesus foretells of Lazarus:

vv.21-27
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[Hammster]

You are quite wrong. Jesus rebukes her specifically for not believing that He could raise Lazarus. She points out the absolute fact of his deadness by voicing concern over the smell. Then He says:

“Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

This refers to their previous conversation where Jesus foretells of Lazarus:

vv.21-27
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

And she believed He was the Messiah. When? Before, or after Lazarus was raised?

 

[janxharris]

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

And she believed He was the Messiah. When? Before, or after Lazarus was raised?

And she faltered afterwards. Jesus admonishes her for not believing that He can raise a man that has been dead four days. I think it is clear that you are denying the obvious because you recognise that this imperils your theology.

Unbelievers are condemned because what will take place - the lifting up of Christ - is done so with relevance to such people. They are to believe in his crucifixion. They certainly are not to believe that He was lifted up for persons other than himself.