The Ten vs the 603

Leaf473 · Nov 6, 2023

daq said:
What about the following instruction of the Master where he not only quotes from Isa 66:24 but also Lev 2:13?

It looks to me like to be consistent, we would keep them all, or none of them. And if we believe we are to keep them all, then to keep them all in the same way. That is, keep them all literally, or metaphorically.

daq said:
Would that be a good example of doing what the Master says because we love him?

Yes.

daq said:
But how can we fulfill the instruction if we say that the commandment in Lev 2:13 has been done away with, or that the prophecy in Isa 66:19-24 has not yet come to pass, and is rather for some unknown future time of prophetic fulfillment?

Possibly by believing that the requirement to keep them literally has been done away with, but then keeping them metaphorically.

daq said:
Mark 9:43-49 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]

Isaiah 66:19-24 KJV
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:44-48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Absolutely! And this is kind of a side note, but I like that they (we) are going to "my holy mountain Jerusalem".

daq said:
There is only one place where the commandment to add salt to sacrifices and offerings is given:

Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

Now that's really interesting. Does tithing count as an offering? As in, does salt need to be added to your tithe?

daq said:
I guess the SDA's will need to add that one back in.

HIM · Nov 7, 2023

Icyspark said:
Hi Him,

If I'm understanding you correctly I believe that I'm in basic agreement with much of what you're saying.

I'd say that by looking into the law we see if we are clean or if we're dirty. The law/mirror reveals whether we're sinners. It doesn't do anything other than reveal our condition. We don't use the law to cleanse ourselves of sin. The law shows us our sin and directs us to Jesus for cleansing.

Antinomians reject the law and obedience. Consistency would dictate that they see themselves as sinless with no need for a Savior.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hi Icyspark,
No we aren't.The text implies what we see in the glass is the changed man that is of the engrafted word when it states we beholdeth himself and straightway forget what manner of man he was if we are a hearer and not doer. He hears the word, sees the changed man but forgets and does his own thing ignoring what is now part of him being begotten by the word of truth and the word engrafted. The perfect law that is of liberty is his reflection that he now has in Christ not the glass.

Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

May the blessings of our Father God be upon us all in and through Christ Jesus..

Blessing

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

HIM said:
Hi Icyspark,
No we aren't.The text implies what we see in the glass is the changed man that is of the engrafted word when it states we beholdeth himself and straightway forget what manner of man he was if we are a hearer and not doer. He hears the word, sees the changed man but forgets and does his own thing ignoring what is now part of him being begotten by the word of truth and the word engrafted. The perfect law that is of liberty is his reflection that he now has in Christ not the glass.

Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

May the blessings of our Father God be upon us all in and through Christ Jesus..

Blessing

Thank you. That bit about the man in the mirror is something I had not understood before. I don't know why either as It goes along very nicely with everything else I believe about righteousness by faith.

HIM · Nov 7, 2023

Gary K said:
Thank you. That bit about the man in the mirror is something I had not understood before. I don't know why either as It goes along very nicely with everything else I believe about righteousness by faith.

Praise God, my friend! He is worthy of our praise! Oh, how he loves us!

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

HIM said:
Praise God, my friend! He is worthy of our praise! Oh, how he loves us!

We are agreed. His love for us is beyond our greatest imaginings.

SabbathBlessings · Nov 7, 2023

HIM said:
Hi Icyspark,
No we aren't.The text implies what we see in the glass is the changed man that is of the engrafted word when it states we beholdeth himself and straightway forget what manner of man he was if we are a hearer and not doer. He hears the word, sees the changed man but forgets and does his own thing ignoring what is now part of him being begotten by the word of truth and the word engrafted. The perfect law that is of liberty is his reflection that he now has in Christ not the glass.

Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

May the blessings of our Father God be upon us all in and through Christ Jesus..

Blessing

Hi Him,

Nice post.

I do think God's Word here is the same as God's law.

If you notice James 1:23 uses "word" and James 1:25 uses the word "law" so they appear to be interchangeable. Much like Mark 7:9-13 both reference the Word of God as being the same law the Ten Commandments.

The law of liberty is only referenced twice in scripture and in James 2:10-12 James directly contrasts and quotes only from the Ten Commandments so the law of liberty at the very least has to include the Ten Commandments, but I believe the law of liberty is the Ten Commandments. Freedom in Christ overcoming the bondage of sin.

Also, an argument can be made that the Ten Commandments is like a mirror which ties into James 1:22-25

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

All the Ten Commandments do is show us our sins, much like a mirror- it shows we are dirty or clean. The Ten Commandments does not offer a solution for our sin other than our need for Jesus, when we sin God's law shows us we are dirty and need cleansing and we cleanse ourselves through the blood of Jesus Christ who took the curse of the law away, when we go to Jesus for repentance, cleansing and sanctification so we can overcome our sins. Without the law, we would not "see" our sins but would cover them and not forsake them and therefore not prosper Pro 28:13

I do not see Icy's post is in error.

God bless!

Leaf473 · Nov 7, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
Hi Him,

Nice post.

I do think God's Word here is the same as God's law.

If you notice James 1:23 uses "word" and James 1:25 uses the word "law" so they appear to be interchangeable. Much like Mark 7:9-13

The law of liberty is only referenced twice in scripture and in James 2:10-12

SabbathBlessings said:
James directly contrasts and quotes only from the Ten Commandments so the law of liberty at the very least has to include the Ten Commandments, but I believe the law of liberty is the Ten Commandments.

Hi SB,

Do you believe the law of Liberty is The Ten Commandments only? If so, does the "break one, guilty of all" idea apply to other Commandments?

Like, if you don't steal, but you also find yourself not loving others as Jesus loved us, are you guilty of stealing?

SabbathBlessings said:
Also, an argument can be made that the Ten Commandments is like a mirror which ties into James 1:22-25

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

All the Ten Commandment do is show us our sins, just like a mirror does, it shows we are dirty. The Ten Commandments does not offer a solution for our sin, it just shows us we are dirty and need cleansing and we cleanse ourselves through the blood of Jesus Christ who took the curse of the law away, when we go to Jesus for repentance, cleansing and sanctification so we can overcome our sins. Without the law, we would not "see" our sins but would cover them and not prosper Pro 28:13

I do not see Icy's post is in error.

God bless!

SabbathBlessings · Nov 7, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Hi SB,

Do you believe the law of Liberty is The Ten Commandments only? If so, does the "break one, guilty of all" idea apply to other Commandments?

Like, if you don't steal, but you also find yourself not loving others as Jesus loved us, are you guilty of stealing?

The Ten Commandments is based on love Exo 20:6 1 John 5:2-3 it is impossible to love neighbor or love God by breaking His commandments according to the Word of God.

Leaf473 · Nov 7, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
The Ten Commandments is based on love Exo 20:6 1 John 5:2-3 it is impossible to love neighbor or love God by breaking His commandments according to the Word of God.

Well... Definitely! But... We can avoid stealing and lying and adultery and still not be loving other people as Jesus loved us, can't we?

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Well... Definitely! But... We can avoid stealing and lying and adultery and still not be loving other people as Jesus loved us, can't we?

You agree it is impossible to love God and break the commandments and then come up with an excuse for not keeping the commandments? Why?

Leaf473 · Nov 7, 2023

Gary K said:
You agree it is impossible to love God and break the commandments and then come up with an excuse for not keeping the commandments?

No, that's not what I did. What I did was ask if there's more to loving others as Christ loved us than 6 (or 10) basic behaviors. What's your input on that?

Gary K said:
Why?

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

Leaf473 said:
No, that's not what I did. What I did was ask if there's more to loving others as Christ loved us than 6 (or 10) basic behaviors. What's your input on that?

Sorry but that's how I see it. You agreed that by loving God keeping the law is possible then you say but a person can not love God and break the commandments. To that I say, so? Do honest people steal from people. cheat on the wives. not honor their parents, etc...? Isn't that respect a form of loving God and prople based on principle? Aren't the 10 commandments based on principle?

Leaf473 · Nov 7, 2023

Gary K said:
Sorry but that's how I see it.

That's fine, but it may not be what I wrote.

Gary K said:
You agreed that by loving God keeping the law is possible...

Again, not what I wrote. Here's the post:

Leaf473 said:
Well... Definitely! But... We can avoid stealing and lying and adultery and still not be loving other people as Jesus loved us, can't we?

Let's try to simplify it. If a person doesn't steal, does that mean that they are then loving others as Christ loves us?

Gary K said:
...then you say but a person can not love God and break the commandments.

Again, not what I wrote

Gary K said:
To that I say, so? Do honest people steal from people. cheat on the wives. not honor their parents, etc...?

No.

Gary K said:
Isn't that respect a form of loving God and prople based on principle?

It's part of loving God and people, but God calls us to much more than that, doesn't he?

Gary K said:
Aren't the 10 commandments based on principle?

Sorry, not following you. Did you mean to write "based on *this* principle"?

As it stands, my answer to your question would be yes, the Ten Commandments are based on principle. Other things as well imo.

Gary K · Nov 7, 2023

Leaf473 said:
That's fine, but it may not be what I wrote.

Again, not what I wrote. Here's the post:

Let's try to simplify it. If a person doesn't steal, does that mean that they are then loving others as Christ loves us?

Again, not what I wrote

No.

It's part of loving God and people, but God calls us to much more than that, doesn't he?

Sorry, not following you. Did you mean to write "based on *this* principle"?

As it stands, my answer to your question would be yes, the Ten Commandments are based on principle. Other things as well imo.

I mean the 10 commandments are based upon principle. Therefore we can keep them as we can live by the principle of God's love through the power of the Holy Spirit. Read Galatians 5.

Icyspark · Nov 7, 2023

Leaf473 said:
But that's the key point. You haven't yet presented a complete approach to the law.

Hi Leaf473,

It was not my intent to present "a complete approach to the law." I admit that I do not understand how every aspect of the law works. What I do know is that there was no problem with the law such that a new covenant had to be established. God "found fault with the people," not with His own perfect law.

The opening post establishes what icy as a hierarchy to God's requirements. Love is not left undefined. God wants us to love. Who or what should we love? He breaks it down a bit more and says we should love Him and we should love people. Well, how do we do that? He breaks it down even further with a concise listing of ten rules which remove the nebulous quality some prefer when appealing to the idea of just loving. After the Ten God breaks it down even further into the 603 statutes.

Seventh-day Adventists typically approach God's requirements by placing them in four categories: moral, ceremonial, civil and dietary. These designations are not overtly used in the Bible. That said, the Bible certainly does provide its own categories and which God commanded should be kept separated from His Ten Commandment covenant (i.e. the 603 were NOT to be inside the box with the rocks).

Leaf473 said:
I think it would be very helpful if you would present a complete approach to dividing up the entire law. If we show our love to Jesus by obeying, it's very important to know what we are to obey imo.

I feel like we've had a very good and respectful discussion so far. It's possible that when you go to lay out your complete approach to the law, it will turn out that some of the things that you thought about dividing the law at first end up being modified. But we won't know for sure until you do it!

Peace be with you, my man

Sorry, but I don't know that I will be able to supply this "complete approach" to your satisfaction. If you feel you've seen someone who has a more plausible approach to the law then please do share. I appreciate your respectful interaction and I pray our discussion has been beneficial to you (and others) in some small way.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Icyspark · Nov 7, 2023

daq said:
Perhaps I simply do not understand "the heavens" the way you do?
It seems that your view of Elohim is that he is up in the sky somewhere.

Does that necessarily mean that Elohim was not speaking through Mosheh? Moreover, in Exodus 20:19, the Hebrew text actually says, ...but let not speak Imannu-Elohim, lest we die.

Because of the awesome power flowing through Mosheh when Elohim spoke through his Mediator. His voice likely thundered and reverberated through their entire being, to the point that they indeed freaked out, and truly thought they were going to die. We now have a similar technology even today, (search "voice to skull technology" in your favorite search engine). They were not afraid to have Mosheh speak to them, and rather wanted it to be like that again where only Mosheh spoke to them, for they were terrified when Elohim spoke through Mosheh to them. This is not a difficult concept to grasp unless one has a bias to uphold.

Me too.

Hi daq,

I think you are probably sincere, but your position is so foreign to the narrative that it comes across as trolling. It appears to me that you're taking the square peg of a privately held belief and are attempting to force it into the circular hole of the narrative under discussion. Sorry, it doesn't work.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Leaf473 · Nov 7, 2023

Gary K said:
I mean the 10 commandments are based upon principle. Therefore we can keep them as we can live by the principle of God's love through the power of the Holy Spirit. Read Galatians 5.

Sounds good.

What I was getting at earlier was that we can be keeping the Ten Commandments to the letter and still not be loving others as Jesus loved us.

Which kind of relates to what I've been talking about with @Icyspark. There's more than just Ten Commandments in God's law, his Torah, his Way.

daq · Nov 7, 2023

Icyspark said:
Hi daq,

I think you are probably sincere, but your position is so foreign to the narrative that it comes across as trolling. It appears to me that you're taking the square peg of a privately held belief and are attempting to force it into the circular hole of the narrative under discussion. Sorry, it doesn't work.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Do you truly understand what trolling is? If I was trolling your thread it would surely be a mess by now. Are you sure that is not just an empty insinuation-accusation just because I do not agree with some of your doctrine? Have we now come to the place where you may simply label those with whom you do not wish to interact as trolls? I have posted in some of your other threads and you did not make the same insinuation there: but now that you see we have a different understanding of the Torah suddenly I am trolling your thread?

Okay, you can have your thread without me in it.
Have a great thread.

Icyspark · Nov 7, 2023

Bob S said:
Hi spark, it seems to me that you are just opening a can of worms . Messianic believers certainly will not believe your ideas and of course I never have.

Hi Bob S,

So, you're admitting that you were never a Seventh-day Adventist? Got it.

Bob S said:
That is where tithing was required from a certain group of people and also the dietary laws are found.

This illustrates the point above. If you were ever an Adventist then you would know that SDA dietary beliefs are derived from the first book of the Bible, not the last four of the Pentateuch.

Bob S said:
SDAs use some of the laws found only in the remainder of what God proclaimed at Sinai. That is where tithing was required from a certain group of people and also the dietary laws are found. I understand your prophet taught that if you don't return a faithful tithe you will not receive your eternal reward. I also understand that only a third of those proclaiming to be Adventists actually do return a faithful tithe according to her rules.

Off the rails. Let's get back on track.

Why is it you decided to participate on this thread yet you have nothing to add to the discussion other than attempts at distraction?

Do you agree that the Ten Commandments were spoken by God?

Do you agree that the 603 were spoken by Moses?

Do you agree that the Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger?

Do you agree that the 603 were written by the hand of Moses?

Do you agree that the Ten Commandments were written in stone?

Do you agree that the 603 were written in a book?

Do you agree that God commanded that the Ten Commandments be placed inside the ark?

Do you agree that God commanded that the 603 be kept in the SIDE of the ark?

I know your tendency is to attempt to hide the Ten by mashing them in with the 603, but in doing so you're rejecting the obvious separation God set up. God says not to add or subtract from what He says. With His law you do both. What we want to know is why you feel free to do what God said not to do?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Leaf473 · Nov 7, 2023

Icyspark said:
Hi Leaf473,

It was not my intent to present "a complete approach to the law." I admit that I do not understand how every aspect of the law works. What I do know is that there was no problem with the law such that a new covenant had to be established. God "found fault with the people," not with His own perfect law.

The opening post establishes what icy as a hierarchy to God's requirements. Love is not left undefined. God wants us to love. Who or what should we love? He breaks it down a bit more and says we should love Him and we should love people. Well, how do we do that? He breaks it down even further with a concise listing of ten rules which remove the nebulous quality some prefer when appealing to the idea of just loving. After the Ten God breaks it down even further into the 603 statutes.

Seventh-day Adventists typically approach God's requirements by placing them in four categories: moral, ceremonial, civil and dietary. These designations are not overtly used in the Bible. That said, the Bible certainly does provide its own categories and which God commanded should be kept separated from His Ten Commandment covenant (i.e. the 603 were NOT to be inside the box with the rocks).

Icyspark said:
Sorry, but I don't know that I will be able to supply this "complete approach" to your satisfaction.

Well, if we go way back to this excerpt from a post which you wrote to @SabbathBlessings ,

Icyspark said:
By outward appearances it seems to invalidate their claim because Jesus says love is manifested in obedience and obedience is not left nebulous and undefined. Love for God and for our neighbor is defined in the law which apparently to certain ppl is faulty and needed to come to an end. Weird, huh?

you say that love is not left nebulous and undefined. And you say it is defined in the law.

So... is the definition of love the Ten Commandments? Is that all of the definition of love that the law has to give about love for God and neighbor? If the law has more to say that defines love, it looks to me like it would be of the highest importance to know those other parts.

Icyspark said:
If you feel you've seen someone who has a more plausible approach to the law then please do share.

No, I haven't. That was kind of my point. I don't think it can be done, dividing the law up into what defines love for us today and what does not.

Icyspark said:
I appreciate your respectful interaction and I pray our discussion has been beneficial to you (and others) in some small way.

Well, if you say that obedience is key, the really beneficial thing would be to say what laws we ought to be obedient to imo.

Icyspark said:
God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Peace be with you, my friend

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