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Divide

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He sure had a short ministry! You're right though but for us who are not presently hanging on a cross, we can help sanctify ourselves. I think that's code talk for obediance. And the Holy Spirit probably hit that thief hard because the man didn't have much time and He wanted to save him.

1Corinthians 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


I took it as righteousness and (then) sanctification, and (then) redemtion. We are not fully justified and sanctified until the twinkling of eye transformation. And we must cooperate and participate in our own sanctification.

Revelation 19:6-8
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.../KJV

What is making herself ready. By dressing herself in fine linen. Verse 8 is telling us that or fine linen is our righteousness and good deeds. Acting in compassion and love towards our neighbor and the poor. Even if you are the poor one too, Lol! I know all about that. Luckily I realized that as I am sitting in poverty, I am growing rich in His Word. I have so much time to read and pray!
 
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Gary K

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You've taken that wrong. Jesus said to know the Father and the Son is life eternal. 1Corinthians 1: 30 does not say first one then another then another. It says Jesus is made unto us wisdom, justification, sanctification and redemption. The word redemption comes from the Greek word meaning:

[*StrongsGreek*]
00629
ἀπολύτρωσις apolýtrōsis, ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
from a compound of 575 and 3083;
(the act) ransom in full, i.e. (figuratively) riddance, or (specially) Christian salvation:--deliverance, redemption.

If you read my thread on ga'al you will recognize the concept of ransom and that Jesus ransomed us from the devil. He paid to set us free from the power of the devil. With wisdom at the beginning of the first and ransom at the end of it the list cannot be sequential.
 
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Divide

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You are absolutely correct in everything you have said. I agree.

I think that's what Jesus meant on the cross when He said, it is finished. That the ransom is now paid for. Now this all fine and dandy and true, but many people have not received the gift of ransom and liberty in Christ. Those who receive it, Have been not yet fully become sanctified or fully redeemed in perfectness. I am not yehave been perfected? I can prove it too. That I would do, I do not and that that I would do not, that I do. I'm getting better everyday though!


Remember how they used to say, I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved?
we may be righteous in spirit but are not in the soul or fesh yet, and therein lies the battle! You believe in the Lord Jesus? Then you must battle every day then! Because we are not yet perfected or have full redemption of body/soul/spirit. That comes at the rapture.

Phillipians 3:12-13
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,../KJV

1 John 3: 2-3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.../KJV

If the bride did not have to make herself ready, and the man did not have to make himself ready then he needs to purify himself. We need to further purify ourselves and walk circumspect, be ye Holy even as I am Holy.

Everything helps. Obediance, reading the word, prayer, good deeds, helping the poor, witnessing. All the things we do to try and be a profitable servant for the Lord who has given us our Talents and skills and opputuinities in life so that we are able to do a good work for Him.
So we are not sanctifed and blessed with redemption of our bodies yet. We are in spirit but not in soul or flesh. That's at the rapture.
 
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Divide

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Jesus said to know the Father and the Son is life eternal.

We were created eternal beings. They say the first 100 years are the hardest!

If Jesus knew us before we were in the womb, then we were alive in heaven with the Lord before we were born here. Make sense? It does to me. We just got so far away from God on earth that we can't remember because most have been indoctrinated to not be able to hear His voice.

Hey! Babies havent been indoctrinated yet, and they was just with God and might remember somethings. Ask your young babies about the Lord and heaven, and let me know what you find out. (Speak Jesus to those babies!)
 
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Gary K

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When you quote Paul about what I would I do not, you're misunderstanding his meaning.

Romans 7: 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

With the HS dwelling within us we are set free from the law of sin and death and there is therefore no condemnation who walk after the Spirit. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us when we walk in the Spirit.

John agrees with Paul.

1John 1: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1John 5: 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What Paul and John are saying is that when we are close to Jesus we will not sin. Why? Because we are abiding in Jesus and when we do we will do righteousness. Jesus was manifested so He could destroy the works of the devil. How? By His righteousness reproduced in us.

This takes us right back to John 17: 3. And back to the OT.

Jeremiah 29: 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

Jeremiah 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We have now come full circle. Salvation is relational. It's about who we know, not what we know. Jesus changes our hearts. Jesus is righteousness. All our own righteousness is as filthy rags compared to Him. We can do nothing about our own hearts and our own sinfulness. We inherited it from Adam so it's in us right down to our dna. But Jesus is the creator of all and He can recreate us back into His image through the power of His word. Just as He created our world through the power of His word He can renew us through the power of His word.
 
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Leaf473

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I think it's time to close off all discussion between us.
It's up to you

I have shown how we are made partakers of the divine nature and can keep God's law and you have no comment on it at all.
Gary, my man, we're not discussing whether we can keep God's laws, or whether we should. I believe we should follow all of God's instructions for us and I'm fully convinced he will give us the power to do that.

What we're discussing is which laws out of the law of Moses are God's instructions for us today.

I am sorry to say I don't see any reason to continue for the gap between our positions is so vast there is zero common ground. All we will continue to do is talk past each other.
Again, it's up to you.

Peace be with you, my man
 
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Leaf473

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I haven't seen a reasonable, scriptural approach to dividing up the entire law (the 10 plus the 603)
into what we keep for today and what we don't.

 
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Jan001

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The Natural Law Commandments of God were put in place for all humans at the beginning of time.

These natural law commandments were then specifically-tailored as the Ten Commandments for the Israelites. The Israelites were guilty of idol worship and so this sin was strongly prohibited in their 10 Commandments.

When the New Covenant was mediated by the sacrificial death of Jesus; Jesus then specifically-tailored God's Natural Law commandments as the 10 Commandments for the Christians and this included keeping the Lord's Day holy.

A woman was considered to be a man's property under the Old Covenant. However, under the New Covenant, a woman is equal to a man in dignity and that is why a wife is no longer listed as merely another coveted thing among other things in the New Covenant 10 Commandments.

The Sabbath commandments were given to the Israelites alone to set them apart from other nations.


Exodus 31:13 “Say to the people of Israel, ‘You shall keep my sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you.

Jesus' New Covenant accepts and sanctifies all who follow Him. Nationality matters not at all.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

When the Apostles met in Jerusalem to discuss whether Gentile Christian Converts needed to become Jews (follow the Law of Moses and its circumcision laws, etc.); this was the council's decision regarding the Law of Moses for the Gentile converts:

Acts 15:27-29 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

This is why Paul instructed the Gentile converts to disregard any Jew who insisted that the Gentile converts to Christianity obey the food and drink laws in the Law of Moses. This is why Paul told them to disregard the Jewish festivals, new moons, and sabbaths. Paul also instructed these Gentile converts to not receive circumcision.

Colossians 2:11-17 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Paul was extremely frustrated with the Judaizers who were trying to make the Gentile converts adhere to the Law of Moses and be circumcised. He was so frustrated with these Judaizers that he wrote that he wished that these evil men would castrate themselves!

Galatians 5:12 I wish that the ones who are upsetting you would castrate themselves!
 
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Gary K

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Here is a list from the 613 laws. See how many of these laws are scriptural.

To cleave to those who know Him (Deut. 10:20) (the Talmud states that cleaving to scholars is equivalent to cleaving to Him) (CCA16).

That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19) (CCA15). See Torah.

To read the Shema in the morning and at night (Deut. 6:7) (CCA11). See Shema, Jewish Liturgy.

To recite grace after meals (Deut. 8:10) (CCA13). See Birkat Ha-Mazon: Grace After Meals

Not to lay down a stone for worship (Lev. 26:1) (CCN161).

To lend to an alien at interest (Deut. 23:21) According to tradition, this is mandatory (affirmative).

That the new month shall be solemnly proclaimed as holy, and the months and years shall be calculated by the Supreme Court only (Ex. 12:2) (affirmative) (the authority to declare months is inferred from the use of the word "unto you").

Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). See Shabbat.

Not to eat the of the thigh-vein which shrank (Gen. 32:33) (CCN1). See Forbidden Fats and Nerves.

Not to swear needlessly (Ex. 20:7) (CCN29).

Not to appoint as a judge, a person who is not well versed in the laws of the Torah, even if he is expert in other branches of knowledge (Deut. 1:17) (CCN64).

Not to pervert the judgment of a sinner (a person poor in fulfillment of commandments) (Ex. 23:6) (CCN67).

To save the pursued even at the cost of the life of the pursuer (Deut. 25:12) (affirmative). See Life.

Not to spare a pursuer, but he is to be slain before he reaches the pursued and slays the latter, or uncovers his nakedness (Deut. 25:12) (negative).

Not to kidnap any person of Israel (Ex. 20:13) (according to the Talmud, this verse refers to stealing a person, distinguished from Lev. 19:11, regarding the taking of property) (CCN33).

That the Court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev. 20:10) (affirmative).

Not to inflict punishment on Shabbat (Ex. 35:3) (because some punishments were inflicted by fire) (negative). See Shabbat.

Not to make any figures for ornament, even if they are not worshipped (Ex. 20:20) (CCN144).

Not to give up hating the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN25).

Not to sell a beautiful woman, (taken captive in war) (Deut. 21:14) (negative)
 
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Leaf473

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Very interesting explanation, especially the part about natural law being tailored to the Israelites as the Ten Commandments.
 
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Leaf473

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Looks like there's a scripture reference for each law. In that sense, each law is scriptural.

The issue is, however, having a reasonable, scriptural way of saying which instructions from the law of Moses are for today, and which ones are not.
 
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Jan001

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Very interesting explanation, especially the part about natural law being tailored to the Israelites as the Ten Commandments.
It seems to me that the Natural Law of God can be summed up just as Jesus taught:

Matthew 22:36-39 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

The commandments that are stated in a grouping of 10 commandments do give more clarification of this Natural Law for a specific group of people.

Paul states some clarification of this Natural Law for the Christians:

Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Are you saying the laws that are love to God we can break and the greatest commandment because Paul didn't mention it here so basically scripture deletes scripture. So now we no longer need to worship God with all our hearts and minds and can worship other gods instead, vain God's holy name, bow to idols and profane His holy Sabbath? Is this really what you think Paul is teaching? Something different than Jesus taught and kept? Mat 15:3-9 Mat 5:17-30. If the summary of the law is love does that delete the details? No it does not, love to God and man does not go undefined in scripture.1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6
 
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Gary K

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Show me where the concept of Natural Law is found in scripture.
 
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Jan001

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I can show you that not everything that Jesus Christ taught us is written in the Scriptures.

John 21:25 Now there are many other things which Jesus did as well; if they were written down one after the other, I imagine that not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then,
brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught, either by what we said or what we wrote.

Jesus Christ founded a Church and it was His Church's leaders who orally taught us what Jesus commanded for us to do regarding the Lord's Day. Under Jesus Christ's New Covenant, Christians were given their own 10 Commandments which do command us to keep the Lord's Day holy and to rest on His Day.

You can see proof of this Lord's Day command in the Church's early writings. Here is one of these:
Didache

14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. Acts 20:7
14:2 And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled;
14:3 for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord;
14:4 {In every place and at every time offer Me a pure sacrifice;
14:5 for I am a great king, saith the Lord and My name is wonderful among the nations.}
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I can show you that not everything that Jesus Christ taught us is written in the Scriptures.
True, Jesus has much more to tell His saints, but nothing will go against His Word as that is not the spirit of God, but the one we are warned about Isa 8:20
There is nothing wrong with traditions but if they go against God's commandments as Jesus quoted from the Ten calling them the Word of God, Jesus says our hearts are far from Him and we worship Him in vain. Mat 15:3-9 Mat 7:7-8 Thats a serious condemnation by Jesus and through faith we should believe His every Word. Mat 4:4 as Jesus would only lead us down the narrow path and says when we obey our rules/traditions over the commanemnts of God, both teacher and student end up in a ditch, which I beleive that to mean off the narrow path

Jesus founded a Church based on His teachings, not the teachings of man. The apostles started the first Church based on everything Jesus commanded Mat 28:20 which is why they kept every Sabbath Acts 18:4 Acts 13:42-44 and taught to keep the commandments of God, His version, not what was changed by man that have deceived so many and we were warned about Dan 7:25. Trust Jesus, He faithfully kept the Sabbath Luke 4:16 and the commandments John 15:10 He is the way, follow Him.
 
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Jan001

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Show me where the concept of Natural Law is found in scripture.
Romans 2:14-16 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


Adultery was prohibited by Natural Law before the 10 Commandments were given to the Israelites.

Genesis 20:1-7 Abraham traveled from there toward the land of the arid southern plain, and he settled as an immigrant in Gerar, between Kadesh and Shur. 2 Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She’s my sister.” So King Abimelech of Gerar took her into his household. 3 But God appeared to Abimelech that night in a dream and said to him, “You are as good as dead because of this woman you have taken. She is a married woman.

4 Now Abimelech hadn’t gone near her, and he said, “Lord, will you really put an innocent nation to death? 5 Didn’t he say to me, ‘She’s my sister,’ and didn’t she—even she—say, ‘He’s my brother’? My intentions were pure, and I acted innocently when I did this.” 6 God said to him in the dream, “I know that your intentions were pure when you did this. In fact, I kept you from sinning against me. That’s why I didn’t allow you to touch her. 7 Now return the man’s wife. He’s a prophet; he will pray for you so you may live. But if you don’t return her, know that you and everyone with you will die!”


Murder was prohibited by Natural Law. Consequences for Murder before the first covenant was put into force:

Genesis 4:8-11 Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” When they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him. 9 The Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

Cain said, “I don’t know. Am I my brother’s guardian?”

10 The Lord said, “What did you do? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. 11 You are now cursed from the ground that opened its mouth to take your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you farm the fertile land, it will no longer grow anything for you, and you will become a roving nomad on the earth.”
 
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Jan001

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I see that continuing this discussion will not benefit either one of us.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This is an example of the Ten Commandments always being part of God's law. Where there is no sin, there is no transgression Rom 4:15 and sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and both Jesus and Paul points us directly to the Ten Commandments to define sin Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30. The Ten Commandments came in a unit of Ten Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 you break one you break them all James 2:10-12 which is why Cain knew it was sin to commit murder against Abel, because He was given God's law. God's law started in heaven and was what the earthy temple was patterned after Heb 8:1-5. Lucifer broke this holy law which is what separated Him from God as sin separates us from God Isa 59:2. The Ten Commandments shows us our sin Romans 3:20 and our need for Jesus for His mercy, grace and sanctification. No one has authority to re-write God's holy commandments Deut 4:2 that He wrote and He spoke as no one is above God or His holy Word.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Wow, not sure if you are aware, but God says not to add to His Word Pro 30:5-6 something I would take seriously.

Lets see what the scripture says...

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight

This does not say the Lord's Day and you adding it there is exactly what we are warned about. Deut 4:2 Pro 30:5-6

There is no scripture in all of God's Word that says the Lords day is day one.


God named all days day 1, 2, 3 etc. and deemed them working days Exo 20:9. The only day God gave a name was the seventh day and He called it the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. Exo 20:10 My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13

This is what God says when we keep something that is common that God deems holy.

Eze 22:26 26 Her priests have [a]violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Acts 20:7 is about having a meal, nothing about changing the commandment of God. The apostles had meals daily Acts 2:46, that doesn't change God's law.
 
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