The Ten Biggest Verifiable Churches In The World?

[truezeta]

True-- I know of churches with certified social workers on staff, who coordinate outreach ministries and even obtain grants for projects.

Yeeeah for the social workers!

Uh, can you tell I am one? :o

I think there are more people on the rosters than attend because in the states many people use Sunday as their day of rest...literally. They run all week for work. Run on Saturday, cleaning up, shopping, making time for family and friends that by Sunday, they are pooped! Of course, the fact that Sunday is a big sports day doesn't help matters much.

I may miss midweek Bible Study, but I always go to church on Sunday. I look forward to it, and even if I am tired Sunday morning and thinking about the long week ahead, once I make it to church. I am ALLRIGHT!!!

 

[KingZzub]

Cool.

The P/C I used to attend had a membership of 170, but about 250 every Sunday. I guess that is not normal stateside.

I don't know the figures for the church I am at.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[heron]

Uh, can you tell I am one? :o

Hee hee hee.

ZZub, I was wondering if that was a P/C trend, but P/C churches have never given us the numbers. :o We've had some awkward speeches, though, on the importance of membership, as though budget people feel frustrated with the unpredictability.

 

[KingZzub]

Is it simply money or is it more psychological than that? It is important if you are casting a vision to know that people are buying into the vision not simply turning up for a good time on a Sunday.

 

[heron]

"Is it simply money or is it more psychological than that? It is important if you are casting a vision to know that people are buying into the vision not simply turning up for a good time on a Sunday."

It's interesting you'd mention vision. That was a catch word my previous church used during one membership drive...but they never explained what the vision was! I'd been very active there for six years, and had no clue what they meant.

When I asked, they responded, "We'll tell you after you join." Did that make my skin crawl! It sealed my decision to not join. There were things going on at the time that gave me reason to worry.

I recently ran across a statement on the forum where a church was kicking people out for not agreeing with the vision. It struck me that churches used to make statements that they welcomed anyone, no matter what background.

Many Charismatic churches fine-tune their spirituality to a point that they're upset with impurities and personality diversity. They set their goals so high, that they don't have room for people who are not on a high spiritual plane. Do you know what I mean? They want perfect praise, total involvement, wholehearted worship every week. They take it personally if a few people are having a rough day.

Consider the complaints about the megachurches, that they water down the Word. I've heard sermons from some of them, and of course they're not going to cover the entire Bible in one sermon, but they make people feel welcome, accepted, and understood.

Is that necessarily a bad thing? Imagine how it would feel to not attend church for twenty years, then to walk in to a compassionate sermon.

The P/C churches I've been to have the appearance of freedom, but are actually quite legalistic and secretive. Dancers who couldn't attend practices due to work conflicts were reprimanded for dancing in the aisles by themselves. I won't make a list. But the attitude is that God wants the highest praise...not the lame and the destitute inside the doors.

They're shooting for an exclusive club, whether they see it or not.
​

 

[KingZzub]

I think "casting a vision" is not the same as excluding people.

 

[heron]

Sorry, I've been through too many church visions to appreciate that. Getting a little calloused with wear.

 

[KingZzub]

Sorry, I've been through too many church visions to appreciate that. Getting a little calloused with wear.

Actually I should apologise... I did pen a much longer post but the machine clipped me after my first sentence. The fault was probably mine, I press some funny buttons sometimes.

I just wanted to seperate the two events: I agree some churches are funny, others are trying their hardest to do what God is telling them to do, and sometimes wasting a great deal of time on one person or one group of people is counterproductive.

That has none of the eloquence of what I previously said, which was an agreement and a caution to what you said, but I couldn't come up with it again, I am too tired.

Blessings,
|Z|Z

 

[heron]

Oh I know, that posting problem happens to me all the time. Thanks for trying.

 

[heron]

Well, here's an interesting example. We've visited an offshoot church plant once in a while, some friends who were "encouraged to leave" a church due to difference in vision.

The first time we went, we noticed that every member, or at least one member of each couple, was in some level of self-employment.

I immediately thought that meant they had a keener sense of practical financial issues, and maybe had taken some beatings in life that caused them to be conservative spenders...leading to resisting expansion plans for the church.

After a later visit, we noticed that each of these people had strong opinions, and they were not afraid to stand behind them. That made me a litle nervous...had the church kicked them out simply because they were vocal? This was a spiritually and ethically strong group, with varied philosophies. To my knowledge, they had done nothing offensive or wrong. They were just of similar personality type.

Just an observation.

 

[KingZzub]

Well, here's an interesting example. We've visited an offshoot church plant once in a while, some friends who were "encouraged to leave" a church due to difference in vision.

The first time we went, we noticed that every member, or at least one member of each couple, was in some level of self-employment.

I immediately thought that meant they had a keener sense of practical financial issues, and maybe had taken some beatings in life that caused them to be conservative spenders...leading to resisting expansion plans for the church.

After a later visit, we noticed that each of these people had strong opinions, and they were not afraid to stand behind them. That made me a litle nervous...had the church kicked them out simply because they were vocal? This was a spiritually and ethically strong group, with varied philosophies. To my knowledge, they had done nothing offensive or wrong. They were just of similar personality type.

Just an observation.

I cannot comment on a case I know nothing about. I would say though that maybe you are right. In my last church, the deacons were terrified of a church split. I mean really so: the church had split twice in the last ten years (both before my time!)

I was the youth pastor. They had a meeting to discuss their fears. I told them that there would not be a split. They asked why. I said because there are only two people in the church with the personality and charisma to attract a following were myself and the then assistant pastor.

They were then happy. But what if someone was in a position to start a split. Is that an issue?

Not arguing, merely thinking out loud and inviting comment.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[heron]

"Because there are only two people in the church with the personality and charisma to attract a following were myself and the then assistant pastor. "


..can you trust yourself?

Actually, the splits I've seen happened well after a head pastor with charisma attracted followers...it was usually when they started planning for further expansion, expecting continued exponential growth.

In those cases, some growth was expected by all, but a handfulof people got carried away and believed the church was going to take off into fame and spiritual influence. Kind of a Tower of Babel- building.

The reasons were very complex for people leaving. Come to think of it, I've been through more driftings than splits.

One split almost happened when a minister was consciously trying to break up a group that he percieved as a threat to the church. He was very vocal about it. Eventually the church tried to vote him out, and the vote twisted into losing a very dear assistant pastor, respected by both sides. I guess I'm not helping with that story.

A split happened in another church, where the head pastor dealt with it as a church plant--graciously saying we should send members outward, not cling to them. At the time I thought it was very mature way to handle it, but for several years he continued to control and intimidate them, even though they were under an ordained pastor and filed as a separate entity.

All of this takes a big toll on members, especially if they have poured out their lives for their churches. Many people I've known have spent 20-40 hours per week volunteering at their churches. When someone invests that much in an organization, they're going to feel it when it shakes.

 

[KingZzub]

I do trust myself yes. I have been tempted and I have been tested and I know my heart as does the Lord.

I understand what you are saying, and I think that sometimes a church split can be a good thing - however, I think it can always be done with graciousness on both sides.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[heron]

" I understand what you are saying, and I think that sometimes a church split can be a good thing - however, I think it can always be done with graciousness on both sides."

Yes, I even wonder if the fear of the split leads to the distortions and trouble, more than the divergence of opinion itself.

Falling for dynamic leaders--that can be more of the responsibility of the individual members than the leaders.

 

[KingZzub]

Yes, but a leader should be self aware enough to deal intelligently and responsibily with such a situation.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[FollowingJesus]

Here is some old data from Forbes.com

It should give you a rough estimate of popular US megachurches.

Lakewood Church 25,060 Houston, Tex. Joel Osteen
World Changers 23,093 College Park, Ga. Rev. Creflo Dollar
Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa 20,000 Santa Ana, Calif. Pastor Chuck Smith
The Potter's House 18,500 Dallas, Tex. Bishop T.D. Jakes

My 'home' church has 22,000 members. I've recently moved to a new state, and I'm having a hard time adjusting to services with only a few hundred people in attendance...