The Sun Revolves Around The Earth: Scripture Cannot Lie

[EclipseEventSigns]

We absolutely have an Old Testament and a New Testament. We merely reject the idea of a massive 500 year “Intertestamental Period” which is what certain Bibles like the KJV Study Bible use to gloss over important books they are missing (which are in the original KJV), including vital historical texts like the Books of the Maccabees, which among other things document the Jewish resistance to the wicked Antiochus, and the origin of Chanukah and the Menorah, a trio of moving and prophetic spiritual books (namely Tobit, Judith, Baruch, and The Prayer of Manasseh), and wisdom literature (Sirach, also known as Ecclesiasticus, and Wisdom, or the Wisdom of Solomon), which are collectively akin to Job, Jonah, Proverbs, and the Hamesh Megillot (the Five Scrolls, which are Ruth, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations and the Song of Songs), and longer, more complete versions of Daniel and Esther.

In particular I would note the Septuagint version of Esther is vastly superior to the Masoretic version, in that prayer is a central theme in it; the Masoretic version in contrast comes across primarily as a Jewish historical narrative, and not only did St. Athanasius not recognize it as canonical, but Martin Luther actively wanted to remove it.

The most recent Old Testament book as far as I am aware is The Wisdom of Solomon, also known as Wisdom, which may have been compiled (primarily from sayings of King Solomon not recorded elsewhere) as recently as 61 BC. It is thrilling to consider, given the prophecy of the Passion of our Lord it contains in chapter 2, that this book was potentially compiled within approximately 90 years of the Incarnation, Passion, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ Jesus, our Lord, God and Savior. Wisdom ch. 2 is one of my very favorite parts of the New Testament, an opinion I share with several members of CF.com.

So, I suppose you could say we do have a de facto Intertestamental Period, and it is at least 90 years long, but that still covers vastly more ground than the 500 year gap people who reject the Deuterocanonicals call for.

Don't be fooled by people who say there are "missing" books of the Bible that contain MORE information or SECRET information. It just is not so. God made a very clear test to prove what should be in the Bible. The mathematical proof shown with ELS (equidistant letter sequences) is God's finger print of what is His word. It's in the actual original languages for both the Old Testament AND New Testaments. Hebrew and Aramaic languages. Not Greek. The New Testament Greek was not the original language written. Neither are any of the so called "intertestamental" writings that the previous comment wants you to believe you NEED to read.

 

[The Liturgist]

Don't be fooled by people who say there are "missing" books of the Bible that contain MORE information or SECRET information. It just is not so.

I agree entirely. Indeed, one of the great disappointments of my life was reading the Gnostic “Gospels”, hoping to find more stories about Jesus, only to discover they were blasphemous rubbish.

God made a very clear test to prove what should be in the Bible.

Yes He did, and its called the Athanasian Canon for the New Testament, and the Narrow Canon of the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church for the Old Testament, the former of which is universally accepted by all Christian churches; the latter, not so much, but a subset of it is accepted by most Christians, that being the Septuagint Canon, which is the basis for the Vulgate Canon and the Anglican Canon.

The mathematical proof shown with ELS (equidistant letter sequences) is God's finger print of what is His word. It's in the actual original languages for both the Old Testament AND New Testaments. Hebrew and Aramaic languages. Not Greek.

The Bible doesn’t say anything about Equidistant Letter Sequences. And also, frankly, considering there are numerous textual variants within the Hebrew and Aramaic text, which is why there were several editions such as Symmachus, etc., prompting Origen to compile the Hexapla so these variants could be compared, that really shatters the idea of some sort of cryptic divine “fingerprint” in the text, something not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Bible or by any of the Early Church Fathers, and something which was not discussed when the canon of the New Testament was being compiled.

The New Testament Greek was not the original language written.

That is absolutely untrue; Aramaic primacy has been thoroughly scientifically debunked. We know as a matter of scientific fact the New Testament was originally written in Greek. To the extent that the unique literary styles and quirks of the individual authors are apparent in Greek.

Neither are any of the so called "intertestamental" writings that the previous comment wants you to believe you NEED to read.

I never said anyone needs to read the so-called Deuterocanonical Books. I do strongly recommend it, but considering that for various reasons, most Bibles lack them, and most Christians are able to get by without them, they are not strictly speaking necessary. In fact, since throughout history, most Christians have been illiterate, there is no actual need for Christians to read the Bible at all; rather, hearing the Bible read and expounded upon in Church is sufficient for those capable of comprehending it, but in extreme cases, such as a dying infant, baptism is sufficient to ensure salvation. And it is Baptism and Holy Communion which save; the Gospel is the Good News that eternal life is possible through faith in Jesus, which is expressed by joining the Church and thus being grafted onto His Body through Baptism and Holy Communion (1 Corinthians ch. 10-12).

 

[FredVB]

Enoch the prophet wrote about the Lake of Fire, who it was made for, and who will end up there, and and about Sheol below earth, who was there who would go there, and what places there they were held in. There were four separate “hollows” separated for holding the fallen angels in the deepest one, and the slain innocents in one, who cried out for the avenging of their blood and one for the righteous souls to wait in comfort for the day of Atonement and who could not go to Paradise because the Atonement was not yet accomplished…Jesus emptied that place out -set those held captive in the 1st death of separation from the Father since the fall of our first father, The Adam, whose seed we are. Jesus announced the Gospel for them when He descended, and they ascended to Paradise in the 3rd heaven at that time, to wait there for their resurrection bodies made in the image of the New Man, which the dead souls do not get before the rapture of the living saints when He brings them with Him, in the air, to receive their elementally regenerated bodies to live in, and be glorified in, along with the same elemental change of the living saints at that time. Psalm 50 gives a picture ot it.
Jude, womb brother of Yeshua/Jesus said Enoch prophesied. Enoch the prophet was the 7th from Adam, and Jude said he prophesied.
Jude also writes of several things in his short book that are not found in the OT but are found in Enoch.Jude and James/Jacob make use of Enoch’s writings, as their womb brother did, of what Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam, wrote.
You would get a good education on the Book of Enoch if you read Robert Burns very researched book with hundreds of footnotes on the history of the Book of Enoch. You can even read it free on his web site. He used to post here as SummaScriptura.
The Book of Enoch Information Website ~ This is your one-stop for Enochan studies!
As far as Josephus you seem to be saying something Josephus did not say. I have Josephus and his book was not about Enoch or what he wrote or did not write.

There are different books of Enoch, originating at different times. It is wiser to choose what is in the Bible for making an argument. I know great cases for avoiding products from animals, and it is consistent with the Bible, I do not need a book of Enoch for that, but if you go by that you shouldn't use anything from animals.

But reading passages we should still see some things are not to be understood literally. Using everything that way is still from an opinion.

 

[BobRyan]

Enoch the prophet wrote about the Lake of Fire, who it was made for, and who will end up there, and and about Sheol below earth, who was there who would go there, and what places there they were held in. There were four separate “hollows” separated for holding the fallen angels

That is not OT (And certainly not NT) -- it was never part of the Hebrew Bible and there are no indications that it existed before Joshua or the book of Malachi

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are different books of Enoch, originating at different times. It is wiser to choose what is in the Bible for making an argument. I know great cases for avoiding products from animals, and it is consistent with the Bible, I do not need a book of Enoch for that, but if you go by that you shouldn't use anything from animals.

But reading passages we should still see some things are not to be understood literally. Using everything that way is still from an opinion.

There was a reason why the Holy Spirit did not choose to have any of the books of Enoch included in the canon of Scripture. That reason was that although it was a fine piece of religious literature, it did not fit the criteria of being Holy Scripture that needed to be relied on as God's Word.

 

[The Liturgist]

That is not OT (And certainly not NT) -- it was never part of the Hebrew Bible and there are no indications that it existed before Joshua or the book of Malachi

There was a reason why the Holy Spirit did not choose to have any of the books of Enoch included in the canon of Scripture. That reason was that although it was a fine piece of religious literature, it did not fit the criteria of being Holy Scripture that needed to be relied on as God's Word.

The Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church and the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church have always had 1 Enoch in their canon, and also the same book is quoted by St. Jude the Apostle in his Epistle. So clearly 50 million Christians at least, as well as the Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews) regard it, as well as Jubilees and certain other Old Testament books outside of the usual EO/RC 73 book canon and the Masoretic 66 book canon regard it as Holy Scripture.

I would also note @BobRyan that the Ethiopian church along with the Coptic church is one of those most consistent about serving the liturgy on Saturday as well as Sunday (although regular Saturday services are a thing in all Orthodox churches except for the Armenian).

 

[BobRyan]

The Old Testament is one of those things where you can be assured that events are based in truth, but due to a lower level of literacy and basic understanding of science some events might be slightly misportrayed or misunderstood by those who were writing them. Many Christians do not take Genesis literally for instance, the events surely happened but we are not united on interpretation of these events.

God is a 100% accurate communicator. He knows how to tell the truth even when the writer does not fully understand what the message means. Daniel expressed this several times in his writing - where he is writing what God says to write even though he himself does not understand it fully.

Instead of Daniel mashing and munging the message to turn it into something he would expect/understand - he gives it just the way God said to do it .. this is what all Bible writers did.

That means if you don't like what is written your problem is with God - not the writer.

 

[BobRyan]

The Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church and the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church have always had 1 Enoch in their canon, and also the same book is quoted by St. Jude the Apostle in his Epistle.

So then a few Christian groups are claiming they are the authors - and that it is NT text? Or do they admit that this is not authored by Christians and the Jews are the ones that have custody right-of-ownership , last-word on the text? Which is it??

When one religion takes over ownership of the text of another world religion -- one starts to question whether that is legit.

 

[Jipsah]

God is a 100% accurate communicator.

Which does not mean that if He says "the sun rises" that we're to infer that the sun was moving and the earth was not.

That means if you don't like what it written your problem is with God - not the writer.

It isn't what God says that troubles me, it's what folks decide that He really meant.

 

[BobRyan]

What is more - Einstein confirms that motion can accurately be described in terms of the frame of reference of the viewer as long as acceleration is taken into account. So you can say "the sun rises in the east and sets in the west" in your frame of reference even though what is actually happening is the earth is rotating.

Which does not mean that if He says "the sun rises" that we're to infer that the sun was moving and the earth was not.

Indeed. Frame of reference works out that way - even in science.

 

[Jipsah]

So then a few Christian groups are claiming they are the authors - and that it is NT text?

Where'd that come from? I don't think anyone here has said any such thing.

Or do they admit that this is not authored by Christians and the Jews are the ones that have custody right-of-ownership , last-word on the text? Which is it??

I don't hink anyone has asserted that "Enoch" was written by Christians, or that anyone holds copyright on it.

When one religion takes over ownership of the text of another world religion -- one starts to question whether that is legit.

Is it time to remove the Old Testament from Christian Bibles? Seems a strange position for a Sabbatarian to take.

 

[BobRyan]

Is it time to remove the Old Testament from Christian Bibles? Seems a strange position for a Sabbatarian to take.

No - it is time to not tamper with it. Leave it exactly as it is in terms of content. Jewish writers wrote it and as Jewish historians such as Josephus in the first century confirm - the Jews were keeping their cannon of scripture "unchanged" in the temple for more than 300 years by the time of the first century.

So we know what it is - how nice then that our OT today has the same texts as the Hebrew Bible Josephus referenced as fully canonized long before the time of Christ.

This is the easy part.

 

[The Liturgist]

So then a few Christian groups are claiming they are the authors - and that it is NT text? Or do they admit that this is not authored by Christians and the Jews are the ones that have custody right-of-ownership , last-word on the text? Which is it??

When one religion takes over ownership of the text of another world religion -- one starts to question whether that is legit.

The Beta Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia, who have been Jews since the time of King Solomon* regard 1 Enoch as canonical, and always have, and the Ethiopian Christians agree with them, in part because the Epistle of Jude quotes 1 Enoch, and in part because almost all Ethiopian Christians are descended from the Beta Israel, making them the largest population of Christians of direct Jewish descent in the world.

So ironically, the Christians of Ethiopia would be taking over the texts of Judaism if they replaced the Ethiopian Jewish canon with the Rabinnical Jewish canon. But since the Beta Israel, as I have told you before, have always accepted these books as canonical, it disproves the idea that there was a unified Jewish canon.

* Emperor Haile Selassie, who was martyred by the Derg Communists, was also the last Emperor of the Solomonic dynasty. The Beta Israel were forced to flee the country under the Derg and evacuate to Israel, where unfortunately they have been victims of racist discrimination, much like the Karaite Jews, although Beta Israel members serve in the IDF in large numbers.

Beta Israel is Ge’ez for House of Israel, Ge’ez being the ancient Semitic language that occupied a role in Ethiopian society analogous to Aramaic in Jewish society. Note that it is derived from the same triconsonantal root as the Hebrew Beth and the Aramaic Bayith. One thing which makes the study of Semitic languages easier is the shared vocabulary of triconsonantal roots, so if one learns these, for example, ALH for God, BTH for house, BL for ruler, RBN for lord or teacher, BN for brothers/sons of, ABB for father (A is a consonant when at the start of a Semitic word), it makes understanding the whole range of Semitic languages easier.

 

[The Liturgist]

No - it is time to not tamper with it. Leave it exactly as it is in terms of content. Jewish writers wrote it and as Jewish historians such as Josephus in the first century confirm - the Jews were keeping their cannon of scripture "unchanged" in the temple for more than 300 years by the time of the first century.

As I’ve tried to tell you, this is not the case - the Beta Israel are one of many Jewish groups whose canon differs from that of the Masoretic text, and it differed from it for more than 300 years by the time of the first century. The Ethiopians converted to Judaism and began intermarrying with Jews, specifically members of the tribe of Judah, during the reign of King Solomon, and their monarchy is descended from King Solomon and the Kandake, also known as the Queen of Sheba, through their son Prince Solomon.

And that 1 Enoch was mainstream scripture during the time of Christ is shown by St. Jude quoting it.

The Masoretic text actually post-dates the birth of our Lord by approximately 800 years, with the oldest intact manuscript being from the 11th century, so its quite a new text. But we know it contains only a subset of Jewish scriptures, considering the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.

 

[prodromos]

No - it is time to not tamper with it. Leave it exactly as it is in terms of content. Jewish writers wrote it and as Jewish historians such as Josephus in the first century confirm - the Jews were keeping their cannon of scripture "unchanged" in the temple for more than 300 years by the time of the first century.

The Masorites tampered with the Hebrew text by adding vowel points.

 

[Yekcidmij]

But we know it contains only a subset of Jewish scriptures, considering the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.

But just becomes a work was found among the DSS doesn't mean it was widely canonical, nor does it necessarily mean it was "canonical" for the DSS group (which I assume to be Essene),. If you went through the library at church you would find a lot of useful books, but not all books in the library are canonical. That said, given that group's fixation with certain things, it may very well be the the case that it was canonical for them.

I would say the question isn't so simply with Jude either. Does mere quoting from another book automatically mean it becomes canonical? When Paul quotes Aratus in Acts 17, does Aratus' Phaenomena become canonical? Surely not (and Aratus was explictly talking about Zeus).

There's no denying it's canonical for Ethiopians, Eritreans, Essenes, etc.. but there are also good reasons to doubt its True canonical status or to exclude it from the canon. It's a sectarian work that uses particular language and concepts that were in play in wider Judaism (eg, the elect, son of man, angels, demons, judgments, messiah(s), etc..), but what they mean by those concepts and how they applied them is not the same as other sects. For that sect, they were the elect to whom God had disclosed his most important secrets, chief of which was the perfectly symmetrical and sacred 364 day solar calendar. Unfortunately, the actual solar calendar is 365.24219 days instead of 364 - and this sect was apparently aware of this because they had a convenient explanation in 1 Enoch. It wasn't their calendar that was wrong, it was the stars themselves, fallen angels, who had transgressed God's divine order of times and seasons and had fooled humanity into going along with them. There is obvious reason to consider this system incorrect and thus should be non canonical - cerntral concerns of its system doesn't align with reality. Is it possible to use the book as canonical for other theological purposes given the author's theology and intent? I'm not sure, maybe; I'm not sure what a group like the Ethiopians does with it exactly or how its actually treated within their tradition.

There was no single "Judaism" in the time of Jesus, and thus unsurprisingly there is no "unified canon" in the sense of a perfectly agreed on, uniform set of books across every Jewish person on the planet. There were various Judaisms, and apparently, at least from what I can tell, Josephus' take on which books were canonical probably represents what was recognized as canonical in and around Judea, in the Temple, and what most would have recognized as "canonical," - certainly among the Pharisees and probably among the priests and Sadducees as well. Jesus' take on things, including what was scripture, seems much closer to that of the Pharisees than of the Essene sect hanging out at Qumran.

In any case, that's my take.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Masorites tampered with the Hebrew text by adding vowel points.

And cantillation marks.

 

[BobRyan]

The Masorites tampered with the Hebrew text by adding vowel points.

We have two different contexts for the discussion
1. What books are included in the canon
2. Are there any hints added in the text to tell people how to pronounce the words using vowel points.

we are talking about the first context - not "vowel points" in an agreed upon set of texts.

 

[BobRyan]

The Beta Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia, who have been Jews since the time of King Solomon* regard 1 Enoch as canonical,

And apparently had no say at all over what text was preserved in the temple - in unchanged canon of the Hebrew Bible canonized for over 300 years by the time of Christ - according to the Jewish historian Josephus

 

[The Liturgist]

And apparently had no say at all over what text was preserved in the temple - in unchanged canon of the Hebrew Bible canonized for over 300 years by the time of Christ - according to the Jewish historian Josephus

It really doesn’t matter what was preserved in the temple, or what Josephus said was preserved in the temple. What matters is what the Ethiopian Jews regarded as canon. We know that Second Temple Judaism had lost a number of things, including the Ark of the Covenant (which the Ethiopians had been inspired to remove; had they not taken it the Babylonians would have desecrated it, but it remains safe to this day in an Christian monastery). So it seems reasonable that their library would be incomplete. Indeed the Old Testament refers to several books which are sadly lost and were likely already lost by the time of St. Esdras the Priest and St. Nehemiah the Prophet.