The Sumerian Flood Narrative

[AV1611VET]

Quite the contrary, there is much evidence, and this evidence is contrary to a global flood.

Like what?

 

[RickG]

What about the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus

I think some bible scholars believe the actual translation describes a "sea of reeds" rather than the red see.

The key words are 'Yam Suph". The KJV translates that as Red Sea. However, Yam Suph is mentioned some 23 times in the the Tanakh. Both the NJPS and SET (Jewish versions) translate it as "sea of reeds".

Examples:

Exodus 13:18

KJV: "But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt."

NJPS: "So God led the people roundabout, by way of the wilderness at the Sea of Reeds. Now the Israelites went up armed out of the land of Egypt."

SET: "So God turned the people toward the way of the Wilderness to the Sea of Reeds. The Children of Israel were armed when they went up from the land of Egypt."

 

[AV1611VET]

I think some bible scholars believe the actual translation describes a "sea of reeds" rather than the red see.

The key words are 'Yam Suph". The KJV translates that as Red Sea. However, Yam Suph is mentioned some 23 times in the the Tanakh. Both the NJPS and SET (Jewish versions) translate it as "sea of reeds".

Examples:

Exodus 13:18

KJV: "But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt."

NJPS: "So God led the people roundabout, by way of the wilderness at the Sea of Reeds. Now the Israelites went up armed out of the land of Egypt."

SET: "So God turned the people toward the way of the Wilderness to the Sea of Reeds. The Children of Israel were armed when they went up from the land of Egypt."

And the entire Egyptian army drowned in the Sea of Reeds, right?

 

[RickG]

Like what?

Stratigraphic sediments that represent many different types of sedimentation processes that are completely void of flood sediments.

 

[AV1611VET]

Stratigraphic sediments that represent many different types of sedimentation processes that are completely void of flood sediments.

And here I thought you were going to say a Chinese coin dated 5000 BC!

 

[RickG]

And the entire Egyptian army drowned in the Sea of Reeds, right?

Oh! I forgot to mention that part. There is zero evidence, historical or archeological, of Hebrew slaves being present in Egypt during the reign of Ramses or any time there about. Sorry, but that is a fact.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

And the entire Egyptian army drowned in the Sea of Reeds, right?

That'd be an even better story, no?

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh! I forgot to mention that part. There is zero evidence, historical or archeological, of Hebrew slaves being present in Egypt during the reign of Ramses or any time there about. Sorry, but that is a fact.

Um ... these guys just weren't your average run-of-the-mill acquired slaves.

They were, in fact, long-time residents of Egypt ... born and bred in Egypt ... who were enslaved by one king of Egypt in a single generation.

To be specific, here's what the Bible says:

Exodus 1:8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

It doesn't say: there arose up a new king over Egypt, which registered the Hebrews as slaves.

In fact, the king had plans to exterminate them, not register them as slaves.

Note what Wikipedia says:

The difficulty of distinguishing between slaves and levied peasant labour has bedevilled the study of this subject. Private ownership of slaves, captured in war and given by the king to their captor, certainly occurred at the beginning of the Eighteenth Dynasty (1550 - 1295 BCE). Sales of slaves occurred in the Twenty-fifth Dynasty (732 - 656 BCE), and contracts of servitude survive from the Twenty-sixth Dynasty (ca 672 - 525 BCE) and from the reign of Darius: apparently such a contract then required the consent of the slave. Slaves were usually kept naked, espesially the women.

The Old Testament also recounts tales of slavery in Egypt: slave-dealers sold Joseph into bondage there, and the Hebrews suffered collective enslavement (Exodus, chapter 1) prior to the Exodus. However, the historicity of the Biblical account is questioned. It is noteworthy that outside of the Biblical account, no evidence has ever been found indicating the systematic enslavement of Israelites.

Reading the Bible, shows that the Israelites were neither captured in war, nor sold as slaves.

So if archaeologists are looking for Hebrew slaves in the Egyptian books, they do err, not knowing the Scriptures.

 

[AV1611VET]

That'd be an even better story, no?

I'll bet Rick thinks this was a fable too:

Exodus 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

 

[RickG]

So if archaeologists are looking for Hebrew slaves in the Egyptian books, they do err, not knowing the Scriptures.

Let's put it a different way. No Hebrew artifacts nor records of which the Ancient Egyptians adapt in keeping.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Let's put it a different way. No Hebrew artifacts nor records of which the Ancient Egyptians adapt in keeping.

And even if the Egyptians were somehow willing/able to expunge this entire episode from every single record of their history they ever made, you would think that their neighbors (to say nothing of their enemies) would've noticed something was amiss...

All I can say is that if I was an enemy of the Egyptians, and they'd just had their population, infrastructure, and military utterly decimated, I'd see it as a perfect opportunity to attack... I might even consider it a sign from my gods...

 

[USincognito]

Plants do not have nostrils:

“Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.” – (Gen 7:22).

If God can preserve three men in a fire, can He not preserve a plant under water?

Except that flood geology claims that sediment covered the entire earth creating the topography we see around us and in the geological record. You would then have to propose another ad hoc argument claiming God preserved a special little copse of olive trees during the flood as well.

Making up ad hoc excused for why Creationism fails in a particular case more often than not creates more problems and leads to more ad hoc excuses.

That is why standard science is superior, the individual explanations are internally consistent.

 

[USincognito]

I contend your interpretation is based on cherry-picking.

And yet yours is a combination of cherry-picking combined with layers of ad hoc excuses that aren't mentioned in Genesis. You're just making them up.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Um ... these guys just weren't your average run-of-the-mill acquired slaves.

They were, in fact, long-time residents of Egypt ... born and bred in Egypt ... who were enslaved by one king of Egypt in a single generation.

To be specific, here's what the Bible says:

Exodus 1:8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

It doesn't say: there arose up a new king over Egypt, which registered the Hebrews as slaves.

In fact, the king had plans to exterminate them, not register them as slaves.

Note what Wikipedia says:
Reading the Bible, shows that the Israelites were neither captured in war, nor sold as slaves.

So if archaeologists are looking for Hebrew slaves in the Egyptian books, they do err, not knowing the Scriptures.

"However, the historicity of the Biblical account is questioned. It is noteworthy that outside of the Biblical account, no evidence has ever been found indicating the systematic enslavement of Israelites."

REALITY SAYS IT ... THAT SETTLES IT.

 

[USincognito]

The flood miracle achieved its purpose. That's all that mattered.

God was not trying to impress scientists by leaving evidence lying around for them to pick at.

Chapter and verse? Or is this just more ad hoc on your part?

]it was a miracle that should not have left evidence and did not.

Why shouldn't it?

The purpose of the flood miracle was to cleanse the earth of human pollution, not leave evidence behind for scientists to pick at.

No, seriously. Why shouldn't it?

Even the dirty flood waters had to be purified afterwards.

Chapter and verse? Or is this more ad hoc on your part?

 

[RickG]

The flood miracle achieved its purpose. That's all that mattered.

Absolutely, it achieved it's purpose. It was a story about ridding the earth of evil and keeping only that that was good. An allegory, not something that actually happened.

God was not trying to impress scientists by leaving evidence lying around for them to pick at.

So you have to make stuff up to explain things?

Well then

it was a miracle that should not have left evidence and did not.

If God did not want to leave evidence then why Gen 9:13-14 & 16.

 

[SkyWriting]

Chapter and verse? Or is this just more ad hoc on your part?

Scientifically speaking, the flood did not disrupt the entire earth crust and redeposit it as early geologists assumed was the case. Given the sources of the flood and the volume needed, both volume and the properties of the liquid are likely to have been completely under direct divine guidance. There was an "experiment" conducted later by Jesus to see if His faith would allow Him to walk on the surface of water, and His results were difficult for others who attempted the same feat. Still, the ability for God to control "water" flow is found sprinkled throughout the scriptures. (Pun noted)

Water (4,571 Occurrences)
Bible Search: water

 

[SkyWriting]

The exact date of the eruption of Santorini, is unknown. If you rely on the Radiocarbon dating of an olive tree found in that vicinity, this would indicate that the eruption occurred somewhere about 1645---1600 BC, these dates, however, conflict with the usual date range from archaeological evidence, which is between 1550 and 1500 BC. Which is about the time of the Expulsion of the Shepherd kings. <snip>

The ability of science to "predict" past events based on evidence is doubtful. They can predict weather about 5 days out, and I usually give them 10 times as much leeway for past events, about two months beyond any of mans written history. I'm not saying that all mens writings are reliable, just that all conjectures by man about past events are less reliable than written documents.

 

[USincognito]

Scientifically speaking...

You should have quit while you're ahead. There is zero scientific evidence for the Flood.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by SkyWriting Scientifically speaking...

You should have quit while you're ahead. There is zero scientific evidence for the Flood.

Opinions are like heads, everyone has one, tho some do lose 'em..

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God,...........

Talking Heads - "Once In A Lifetime" - YouTube