The stumbling block for atheists.

[AV1611VET]

I don't work in ER. Not all psychiatric assessments take place in the ER.

Let's bottom-line this silly conversation and get it over with.

Were you there when he came in?

No?

Then is it okay with you if I believe his story?

 

[Larniavc]

Let's bottom-line this silly conversation and get it over with.

Were you there when he came in?

No?

Then is it okay with you if I believe his story?

Of course.

Then can you clarify what you think that that means?

 

[user385]

At one time I had to admit that I was not perfect. One result of a life not lived in obedience to God is vanity. I trust what God has said. I do not believe everything scientists say. I believe at least some scientists are paid to write certain information. There are people in the world who dont want the public to know about certain things. If the public knew everything about what they do they would have to hide from the public. There are evil spirits at work in this world. Evil spirits tempt men to bribe, to try to control others and to lie.

 

[HitchSlap]

I don't think he asked those questions from a faith perspective.

He was asked from a psychiatric perspective.

I don't think asking someone if they're ready to die, or if the Devil is out to get us, is the same as asking someone what faith they believe in.

AV, this never happened - I know it, and you know it.

This is one of those fantastic fabrications traveling preachers use to foment a certain fervor amongst the congregation to give more quid when the hat comes down the aisle.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That would mean looking at the future means we arrange all the future. No. If we are not limited by time, and know the future, it does not mean that we forced men to make the trillions of decisions they made along the way.

If you know, correctly and with certainty, what someone will do at some future time, then that person cannot do otherwise without contradicting your certain knowledge. If that person cannot do otherwise, they do not have a choice.

It's simple logic.

P1. For B to have a choice, B must be able to do either Y or other than Y at time X.
P2. A knows that B will do Y at time X.
P3. A is correct.
P4. B cannot do other than Y at time X (P2 & P3).
C. B does not have a choice to do other than Y at time X.

 

[lesliedellow]

If you know, correctly and with certainty, what someone will do at some future time, then that person cannot do otherwise without contradicting your certain knowledge. If that person cannot do otherwise, they do not have a choice.

It's simple logic.

P1. For B to have a choice, B must be able to do either Y or other than Y at time X.
P2. A knows that B will do Y at time X.
P3. A is correct.
P4. B cannot do other than Y at time X (P2 & P3).
C. B does not have a choice to do other than Y at time X.

It is simple logic, but Christians who don't want to believe in predestination (most of them) do their best not to comprehend it.

 

[HitchSlap]

It is simple logic, but Christians who don't want to believe in predestination (most of them) do their best not to comprehend it.

Kind of makes all that talk about the 'simple gospel message' shallow sounding, doesn't it.

 

[dad]

If you know, correctly and with certainty, what someone will do at some future time, then that person cannot do otherwise without contradicting your certain knowledge. If that person cannot do otherwise, they do not have a choice.

False. They make choices to end up where we know they will go.

It's simple logic.

P1. For B to have a choice, B must be able to do either Y or other than Y at time X.
P2. A knows that B will do Y at time X.
P3. A is correct.
P4. B cannot do other than Y at time X (P2 & P3).
C. B does not have a choice to do other than Y at time X.

If you are up on a cliff overlooking a seaside path that has a fork in it, you may see a person on it. If they chose the one path in the fork, they will end up at the beach, the other path takes them to a parking lot far from the beach. You see them take the beach path, so you know they are ending up there. They chose the path.

 

[lesliedellow]

False. They make choices to end up where we know they will go.
If you are up on a cliff overlooking a seaside path that has a fork in it, you may see a person on it. If they chose the one path in the fork, they will end up at the beach, the other path takes them to a parking lot far from the beach. You see them take the beach path, so you know they are ending up there. They chose the path.

Completely irrelevant. As an account of divine omniscience that is about as lame as it gets.

 

[Strathos]

What is even going on in this thread anymore?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

If you are up on a cliff overlooking a seaside path that has a fork in it, you may see a person on it. If they chose the one path in the fork, they will end up at the beach, the other path takes them to a parking lot far from the beach. You see them take the beach path, so you know they are ending up there. They chose the path.

Irrelevant; the issue is prior knowledge.

If you want to show me wrong, you need to show one or more of the premises to be wrong in the syllogism I posted. You clearly agree with the first three, so you need to show how P4 (it's really a conclusion) is not a logical consequence of P1, P2, and P3.

 

[dad]

Completely irrelevant. As an account of divine omniscience that is about as lame as it gets.

False. Knowing the end of the path, does not mean we force someone to choose one.

 

[dad]

Irrelevant; the issue is prior knowledge.

False. The issue is whether one affects the decision, not whether one knows the outcome of the free free free free free choice made.

If you want to show me wrong, you need to show one or more of the premises to be wrong in the syllogism I posted. You clearly agree with the first three, so you need to show how P4 (it's really a conclusion) is not a logical consequence of P1, P2, and P3.

I see you think mathematically. Well, if the choice is 2, plus the freedom to chose is 2, then the outcome is 4. Knowing the math does not mean we stack the numbers. How would a nurse and a mom peaking at an an ultrasound to know the sex of a baby be accused of determining the sex? They have prior knowledge!

 

[lesliedellow]

False. Knowing the end of the path, does not mean we force someone to choose one.

God is omniscient, and he has known all things since before the creation of the Earth. He didn't watch Joab heading in Amassa's direction and think, "Oh my gosh, I think he is going to stab him."

By no stretch of the imagination is that omniscience, or, if it is, I am omniscient.

 

[dad]

God is omniscient, and he has known all things since before the creation of the Earth. He didn't watch Joab heading in Amassa's direction and think, "Oh my gosh, I think he is going to stab him."

By no stretch of the imagination is that omniscience, or, if it is, I am omniscient.

Just because He knows, doesn't mean He caused me to chose. The choice was with me.

 

[lesliedellow]

Just because He knows, doesn't mean He caused me to chose. The choice was with me.

Judas chose to betray Jesus, but the Bible says, quite explicitly, that his choice was foreordained by God.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

False. The issue is whether one affects the decision, not whether one knows the outcome of the free free free free free choice made.

This indicates that you don't understand the difference between foreknowledge and hindsight, and the implications of that difference.

I see you think mathematically. Well, if the choice is 2, plus the freedom to chose is 2, then the outcome is 4. Knowing the math does not mean we stack the numbers.

Logic is not mathematics. Your 'calculation' is meaningless.

How would a nurse and a mom peaking at an an ultrasound to know the sex of a baby be accused of determining the sex? They have prior knowledge!

Another irrelevant example that misses the point. It's beginning to look like deliberate obfuscation.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Just because He knows, doesn't mean He caused me to chose. The choice was with me.

Did God know if you would be saved before He created the universe? Could God have created a universe where that outcome would be different?

 

[bhsmte]

What is even going on in this thread anymore?

Not sure. I am just glad someone informed me I have a stumbling block.

 

[Strathos]

Not sure. I am just glad someone informed me I have a stumbling block.

Everyone does.