The stumbling block for atheists.

[lesliedellow]

He knows the heart of man, and what would happen. That doesn't mean we do not actually chose.

I didn't ask whether God knew the resurrection would happen. Did he intend it to happen?

 

[bhsmte]

I didn't ask whether God knew the resurrection would happen. Did he intend it to happen?

What if someone does not believe the resurrection did happen?

 

[lesliedellow]

What if someone does not believe the resurrection did happen?

Somehow I doubt if that hypothesis is applicable in Dad's case.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Ever notice, when some interpret anything good as being directly because of God, but when something bad happens, they say; who can figure out God's intentions?

Yes; it's a necessary defence - if you can't say anything positive, be non-committal. If there's a tragedy, thank God for survivors; for the rest, well, GWIMW...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We cannot say that God did not allow choice just because He knows what it will be.

I haven't said that. I explained that straw man in my previous post.

Spoiler

"...if you correctly know someone's future action, then by definition, they cannot do otherwise. It doesn't necessarily mean that you determine that, it simply means that the action is inevitable."

 

[Chriliman]

I haven't said that. I explained that straw man in my previous post.

Spoiler

"...if you correctly know someone's future action, then by definition, they cannot do otherwise. It doesn't necessarily mean that you determine that, it simply means that the action is inevitable."

God's knowledge is always present, so it's not that he knows what you'll do before you do it, it's that he knows what you're doing because you're doing it. God can have this knowledge without affecting your free will to do whatever you desire to do in any given moment.

This knowledge combined with God's love is what brings about the desire for sinners to repent. IOW, anyone's desire to love God is a result of what God does. Conversely, anyone's desire apart from God is sinful and God's desire is to bridge that gap and reunite the sinner to himself through forgiveness.

 

[dysert]

God's knowledge is always present, so it's not that he knows what you'll do before you do it, it's that he knows what you're doing because you're doing it. God can have this knowledge without affecting your free will to do whatever you desire to do in any given moment.

Sorry, but that's a very weak view of omniscience.

 

[Chriliman]

Sorry, but that's a very weak view of omniscience.

Why is it weak? It at least means God has knowledge of what happens in all time.

 

[dysert]

If I understood your post, you're limiting God's knowledge to the present, however since God is outside of space/time, His knowledge applies to our past, present, and future.

 

[Chriliman]

If I understood your post, you're limiting God's knowledge to the present, however since God is outside of space/time, His knowledge applies to our past, present, and future.

I didn't mean to limit His knowledge to the present, but was just emphasizing that His knowledge is ever-present.

I agree that His knowledge is outside space/time as well.

 

[PsychoSarah]

God's knowledge is always present, so it's not that he knows what you'll do before you do it, it's that he knows what you're doing because you're doing it. God can have this knowledge without affecting your free will to do whatever you desire to do in any given moment.

This knowledge combined with God's love is what brings about the desire for sinners to repent. IOW, anyone's desire to love God is a result of what God does. Conversely, anyone's desire apart from God is sinful and God's desire is to bridge that gap and reunite the sinner to himself through forgiveness.

Knowing the future because you are present in all times and can experience all events doesn't make free will any less damaged, because it still means that there is only one possible course of events: the ones the deity already experienced first hand. Unless the future is set in stone, a being could not physically be there, because there wouldn't be a place to be.

 

[dad]

Y

You did not answer the question, although it ie esy to understand why. So I will try again:

Was the crucifixion and ressurection God intended to happen?

Did he leave it to chance?

Yes, it was planned.

 

[dad]

I didn't ask whether God knew the resurrection would happen. Did he intend it to happen?

Of course.

 

[dad]

I haven't said that. I explained that straw man in my previous post.

Spoiler

"...if you correctly know someone's future action, then by definition, they cannot do otherwise. It doesn't necessarily mean that you determine that, it simply means that the action is inevitable."

Only From His perspective. From ours, we have real choice. Knowing what we will chose does not make it inevitable..our choice did!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

God's knowledge is always present, so it's not that he knows what you'll do before you do it, it's that he knows what you're doing because you're doing it. God can have this knowledge without affecting your free will to do whatever you desire to do in any given moment.

That's a temporal ontology called atemporalism - it's not as obviously incompatible with free will as foreknowledge omnitemporalism (God knows the future so it must already exist), but it does have the same problem. If God sits outside the timeline, comprehending it as a whole, the timeline, as a whole, must 'exist' for God - He knows what we'll do next year because He's 'already' there; it still implies only one possible future. In this view the universe is a classical 4D Parminidean 'block' (you could try playing with the idea of God existing over all possible timelines, but a moment's thought shows it only makes the problem worse, whether only one timeline is actually realised, or all of them). There is the further problem of how an atemporal God can act temporally, i.e. act within the timeline...

Omniscience also has a problem for God Himself - for His actions to have moral value, He must deliberately chose the good. If He knows every action He will take, that deliberate choice doesn't seem possible (if He always knows everything, He knows without deliberation), which also implies a lack of free will..

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Only From His perspective. From ours, we have real choice. Knowing what we will chose does not make it inevitable..our choice did!

Yes, from our perspective it seems like free choice; we don't have sufficient introspective insight into the determinants of our actions (arguably we can't have such introspective knowledge because of various forms of the observer effect). This is precisely what Isaac Singer's ironic aphorism means, "We must believe in free will - we have no other [logical] choice" - i.e. we can't act otherwise.

 

[Chriliman]

That's a temporal ontology called atemporalism - it's not as obviously incompatible with free will as foreknowledge omnitemporalism (God knows the future so it must already exist), but it does have the same problem. If God sits outside the timeline, comprehending it as a whole, the timeline, as a whole, must 'exist' for God - He knows what we'll do next year because He's 'already' there; it still implies only one possible future. In this view the universe is a classical 4D Parminidean 'block' (you could try playing with the idea of God existing over all possible timelines, but a moment's thought shows it only makes the problem worse, whether only one timeline is actually realised, or all of them). There is the further problem of how an atemporal God can act temporally, i.e. act within the timeline...

Omniscience also has a problem for God Himself - for His actions to have moral value, He must deliberately chose the good. If He knows every action He will take, that deliberate choice doesn't seem possible (if He always knows everything, He knows without deliberation), which also implies a lack of free will..

If we are only to look to Jesus in order to know God, then I'm not sure why we can't say that God began gaining knowledge at some point in the past and continues to gain knowledge in an immortal way. If God lives forever, there are many unimaginable things He could achieve and He wouldn't need omniscience in order to achieve those things. Resurrecting all the dead being one of those things God could achieve if He lives forever and He would need to know every being that has ever existed in order to do that, which is possible, since that number would be finite.

In short, I believe God knows enough in order to achieve His will for all creation.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

If we are only to look to Jesus in order to know God, then I'm not sure why we can't say that God began gaining knowledge at some point in the past and continues to gain knowledge in an immortal way. If God lives forever, there are many unimaginable things He could achieve and He wouldn't need omniscience in order to achieve those things. Resurrecting all the dead being one of those things God could achieve if He lives forever and He would need to know every being that has ever existed in order to do that, which is possible, since that number would be finite.

In short, I believe God knows enough in order to achieve His will for all creation.

This is why I like this site. I get to see just how different God is to everyone that believes. Like this non-omniscient God who knows just enough. Definitely a unique point-of-view for a Christian, as far as I've experienced.

 

[Chriliman]

This is why I like this site. I get to see just how different God is to everyone that believes. Like this non-omniscient God who knows just enough. Definitely a unique point-of-view for a Christian, as far as I've experienced.

I'm sure any Christian would agree that if you're looking to Jesus in order to know God, then you can't go wrong.

 

[Tinker Grey]

That's a temporal ontology called atemporalism - it's not as obviously incompatible with free will as foreknowledge omnitemporalism (God knows the future so it must already exist), but it does have the same problem. If God sits outside the timeline, comprehending it as a whole, the timeline, as a whole, must 'exist' for God - He knows what we'll do next year because He's 'already' there; it still implies only one possible future. In this view the universe is a classical 4D Parminidean 'block' (you could try playing with the idea of God existing over all possible timelines, but a moment's thought shows it only makes the problem worse, whether only one timeline is actually realised, or all of them). There is the further problem of how an atemporal God can act temporally, i.e. act within the timeline...

Omniscience also has a problem for God Himself - for His actions to have moral value, He must deliberately chose the good. If He knows every action He will take, that deliberate choice doesn't seem possible (if He always knows everything, He knows without deliberation), which also implies a lack of free will..

As I like to point out, a god outside time who experiences all of space-time simultaneously in god-time (a hypothetical mechanism for such a god to sequence his actions) is generally posited also as the god who created all of this space-time. That is, the entire history of the universe is a fait accompli.

Implication: not only does that god know what you will do, he created you doing it. So much for free will.