The stumbling block for atheists.

[AV1611VET]

Calvinists themselves categorise ideas such as that as hyper Calvinism, and heretical.

Speaking of that, what flavor of Calvinism are you? lapsarian? supralapsarian? modified supralapsarian? antelapsarian? infralapsarian? sublapsarian? postlapsarian? amyraldian?

What exactly?

 

[AV1611VET]

I know it is a bit ... inconvenient for you, but the Bible says that predestination was before the foundation of the world.

That's right, it was.

God choose to adopt those who get saved, and He made that decision before the foundation of the world.

Was that okay with Mr. Calvin? or should God have waited until after the Fall to make that decision?

 

[lesliedellow]

That's right, it was.

God choose to adopt those who get saved, and He made that decision before the foundation of the world.

I will ask you again. Why, in Romans 9.19-20, was Paul expecting his readers to be scandalised by his words, if his meaning was as inoculous as you want to believe?

 

[AV1611VET]

I will ask you again. Why, in Romans 9.19-20, was Paul expecting his readers to be scandalised by his words, if his meaning was as inoculous as you want to believe?

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

The apostle here introduces the Jew making an objection similar to that in Romans 3:7: If the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory, that is, if God's faithfulness is glorified by my wickedness, why yet am I also judged as a sinner? Why am I condemned for that which brings so much glory to him? The question here is: If God's glory be so highly promoted and manifested by our obstinacy, and he suffers us to proceed in our hardness and infidelity, why does he find fault with us, or punish us for that which is according to his good pleasure?

 

[lesliedellow]

Speaking of that, what flavor of Calvinism are you? lapsarian? supralapsarian? modified supralapsarian? antelapsarian? infralapsarian? sublapsarian? postlapsarian? amyraldian?

What exactly?

My tendency would be towards high, rather than low. I feel no need to label myself any more specifically than that.

 

[lesliedellow]

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

Either you, or he, or both, are ignoring the surrounding context. I really can't say which it is without reading more of his commentary.

 

[AV1611VET]

My tendency would be towards high, rather than low. I feel no need to label myself any more specifically than that.

So it doesn't matter to you when He reprobates some to Hell, but it does matter to you when He adopts them ... right?

(I'm wondering if those who harp about God's freewill will be saying anything here?)

 

[lesliedellow]

So it doesn't matter to you when He reprobates some to Hell, but it does matter to you when He adopts them ... right?

(I'm wondering if those who harp about God's freewill will be saying anything here?)

Prying into what went on within the Trinity, before the foundation of the world, is not something it is sensible to do, in my opinion.

 

[AV1611VET]

Prying into what went on within the Trinity, before the foundation of the world, is not something it is sensible to do, in my opinion.

That's advice your theologians should have followed.

That's why you have all that lapsarian stuff with fancy prefixes before them (see post 1441).

 

[lesliedellow]

That's advice your theologians should have followed.

That's why you have all that lapsarian stuff with fancy prefixes before them (see post 1441).

They are not my theologians. They just happen to have broadly the same opinion about the NT and Bible's contents as me.

 

[Larniavc]

Would you rather he not ask you anything and just diagnose you as insane, or under the influence of mass hysteria (like some here would)?

Makes me wonder what they teach in Psychology 101 nowadays.

Asking someone about their faith is not part of a psychiatric assessment in the UK.

 

[AV1611VET]

Asking someone about their faith is not part of a psychiatric assessment in the UK.

I don't think he asked those questions from a faith perspective.

He was asked from a psychiatric perspective.

I don't think asking someone if they're ready to die, or if the Devil is out to get us, is the same as asking someone what faith they believe in.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

His knowing what we will do does not mean we do not get the real real real chance to chose.

If we can't choose other than what He knows we will do, then we may think or feel we have a choice, but we really really really don't. We must inevitably act as He knows we will act, otherwise He would be wrong (i.e. not omniscient), and that really wouldn't do.

Yes. Real.

Explain exactly what a 'real' choice is - what distinguishes it from a choice that is not 'real'?

He did not predestine our choice at all. He died to give it to us! If He stepped in and intervened, then it would not have been a real choice.

As I said, He wouldn't have to predestine our actions if they are inevitable in the given circumstances. For example, if I know you don't have a logical argument, I'm not predestining that your argument will not be logical, that's just the nature of logic; if I ask you to add 2 and 2, it's mathematics, not my predestination, that makes the correct answer 4.

We may not have total freedom in all choices, but we do have the actual freedom to chose Jesus and eternal life or reject it. You may be in a prison for life and 'chose' to vacation, well you did not really have that choice to take the trip. God helps us all, and has angels helping us. He has cleared the way for us to have the choice. No one can ever say they were destined for and created to go to hell!

Now some have made that choice early and clearly, and have descended far into wickedness. For some of those folks we might say they were made to be destroyed. Why? Because in a sense, it is known that multitudes will fight God in the valley of decision. It is known they will be destroyed. Yet they all made their choice so we might say they were made to be destroyed.

That's all very poetic, but it's fanciful rhetoric that entirely fails to address my point.

 

[dad]

That would make Jesus's repeated remarks about those who have been given to him somewhat redundant, wouldn't it?

Not in the sense they were given...a chance to chose. All men were given...Jesus' death for all men.

"John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Why that qualification, if all men are given to Jesus?

Looking at the rest of the bible we see He died for us all. There is no exceptions to who can come to Jesus and receive the gift of eternal life. That is clear.

"John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

His chosen 12. His disciples? In that particular prayer, it was almost time to go, and in that instance He was praying for His Own disciples. That doesn't mean He hates everyone else, in fact He died for everyone, and told His OWN to go and preach the good news to all the world! Not the news most of them were predetermined to go to hell!

If all men are given to Jesus, why does he say that he doesn't pray for all men ("the world"). but only for those the Father has given to him?

All men have the opportunity. Not all will take it. Many love the god of this world.

 

[dad]

If we can't choose other than what He knows we will do, then we may think or feel we have a choice, but we really really really don't.

That would mean looking at the future means we arrange all the future. No. If we are not limited by time, and know the future, it does not mean that we forced men to make the trillions of decisions they made along the way.

We must inevitably act as He knows we will act, otherwise He would be wrong (i.e. not omniscient), and that really wouldn't do.

We must act according to the main choice in life we all will have...Jesus. Our reaction to Jesus determines our destiny.

Explain exactly what a 'real' choice is - what distinguishes it from a choice that is not 'real'?

Real means actual, and genuine. Not bogus, pretend, deception, trick, or other sneaky counterfeit.

As I said, He wouldn't have to predestine our actions if they are inevitable in the given circumstances. For example, if I know you don't have a logical argument, I'm not predestining that your argument will not be logical, that's just the nature of logic; if I ask you to add 2 and 2, it's mathematics, not my predestination, that makes the correct answer 4.

It is inevitable that the only way to life everlasting is Jesus. He is the only way. All that came before Him were thieves and robbers. He died so that if we believe, it is inevitable we will have eternal life. Once we chose life or death, whatever minor choices we make along the way in life fade into a minor place. No other choices we ever make could save us other than Jesus. When people reject jesus, then they already made the choice of their lives, and other little choices become less real. Example, we may chose a profession, but life may take a different turn than we expected, and we end up in another branch or field or profession. Since not everything is in our hands, we do not have unlimited free choices. Since God is in control, we all do have the choice He set up though. That's what it's all about.

 

[lesliedellow]

Looking at the rest of the bible we see He died for us all. There is no exceptions to who can come to Jesus and receive the gift of eternal life. That is clear.

Instead of making vague allusions to the rest of the Bible, why don't you address the quoted passage?

His chosen 12. His disciples? In that particular prayer, it was almost time to go, and in that instance He was praying for His Own disciples.

"John 17:2, 9 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him..... I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me."

So in verse 2 "as many as thou has given him" refers to those who will receive eternal life from Jesus, but in verse 9 the meaning has suddenly changed, and now it means only the twelve disciples. That's convenient, isn't it?

All men have the opportunity. Not all will take it. Many love the god of this world.

All men can have the Gospel preached to them, but only those whose rebellious nature is overriden by God will respond to it. The remainder will be punished for their rebellion.

 

[Larniavc]

I don't think he asked those questions from a faith perspective.

He was asked from a psychiatric perspective.

I don't think asking someone if they're ready to die, or if the Devil is out to get us, is the same as asking someone what faith they believe in.

What I meant is that the person doing the psychiatric assessment would not ask those questions as part of a psychiatric assessment (in the U.K.).

I know because I've done them.

 

[AV1611VET]

What I meant is that the person doing the psychiatric assessment would not ask those questions as part of a psychiatric assessment (in the U.K.)

I keep getting that as a response, as if it's supposed to mean something.

I already pointed out that it did happen; so telling me that that's not the way we/they do things is a moot point.

I know because I've done them.

You've done what? psychiatric assessments?

This is what I hear you saying:

"We don't do it that way because I've done it that way."

I'm not sure what you're saying.

Have you worked in the ER before? if so, would you do it if you were told to do it?

Admittedly he didn't give us the whole story, so I'm assuming that, if indeed that isn't standard ER procedure, something happened that required it to be done.

 

[dad]

Instead of making vague allusions to the rest of the Bible, why don't you address the quoted passage

I did. I said it IS given to all people on earth to come if they will!

"John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

He gave that to all men through Christ. That is what is is all about. Not some predetination demolition derby of the damned.

"John 17:2, 9 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him..... I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me."

So in verse 2 "as many as thou has given him" refers to those who will receive eternal life from Jesus, but in verse 9 the meaning has suddenly changed, and now it means only the twelve disciples. That's convenient, isn't it?

That means those that chose to accept the gift given for all men! ANY who come are given of the Father. Bing and a bam and a boom.

All men can have the Gospel preached to them, but only those whose rebellious nature is overriden by God will respond to it. The remainder will be punished for their rebellion.

We all have sinned and had that pesky sin nature. Yes if we want to come, and desire with our hearts, He helps us overcome! Nothing to do with predestination, sorry. Jesus died to give us eternal life and that is to any that ask. .. not some predetermined few. If we elect to believe we ARE the elct.

 

[Larniavc]

I keep getting that as a response, as if it's supposed to mean something.

I already pointed out that it did happen; so telling me that that's not the way we/they do things is a moot point.You've done what? psychiatric assessments?

This is what I hear you saying:

"We don't do it that way because I've done it that way."

I'm not sure what you're saying.

Have you worked in the ER before? if so, would you do it if you were told to do it?

Admittedly he didn't give us the whole story, so I'm assuming that, if indeed that isn't standard ER procedure, something happened that required it to be done.

As I understand it you are using story as evidence that this person's expression of belief caused him to be deemed psychologically unfit and thus detained.

I'm saying that if it happened the assessor was derelict in their duty and that this is not a reflection on mental health services in general.

I don't work in ER. Not all psychiatric assessments take place in the ER.