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Winter_Rose

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Hi everyone! I've decided to put this thread here as I would like to hear opinions from other Christians, not just the ones from my denomination. Hope you don't mind. I've come across other threads about this topic, but didn't want get into trouble adding something to an old post encase the user wasn't using this forum anymore.

Would like to hear your thoughts about the stigmata. Does your church talk about this subject? Do you know anyone who's a stigmatic? Can anyone receive this?
 
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faroukfarouk

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Hi everyone! I've decided to put this thread here as I would like to hear opinions from other Christians, not just the ones from my denomination. Hope you don't mind. I've come across other threads about this topic, but didn't want get into trouble adding something to an old post encase the user wasn't using this forum anymore.

Would like to hear your thoughts about the stigmata. Does your church talk about this subject? Do you know anyone who's a stigmatic? Can anyone receive this?
Hi! Do you think you could just briefly refer to what you yourself mean by stigmata; then maybe other people's comments might more directly relate to what you mean. Thanks! :)
 
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faroukfarouk

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The Stigmata is another word for the wounds that Christ had. Individuals also receive these wounds, either a few of them or all of them.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/what-is-the-stigmata.html
Thanks.

I think my response would be that the Lord Jesus at the Cross did indeed suffer great wounds (Isaiah 53: 'He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities').

We also read that He said when He died at the Cross: "It is finished". Hebrews says He was 'once offered' to bear the sins of many; 'by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified'. And so when I think of His grievous wounds which He suffered for my sins, I can by faith rest in His finished, sufficient work, for time and eternity.
 
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Rawtheran

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Hi everyone! I've decided to put this thread here as I would like to hear opinions from other Christians, not just the ones from my denomination. Hope you don't mind. I've come across other threads about this topic, but didn't want get into trouble adding something to an old post encase the user wasn't using this forum anymore.

Would like to hear your thoughts about the stigmata. Does your church talk about this subject? Do you know anyone who's a stigmatic? Can anyone receive this?
To my knowledge the practice of Stigmata is mainly a Catholic thing, and although I've never heard of any practicing stigmatic's in my denomination it would not surprise me if there are some out there in the Methodist faith considering it is so diverse in its faith, and beliefs.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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There is a case currently in Samoa of a protestant claiming Stigmata, but this is unusual though.

http://www.nesiannews.com/2016/04/07/samoa-divided-over-local-womans-stigmata-claims-bbc-news/

As far as I know the first Stigmatic was Francis of Assisi who claimed an Angel appeared to him in a vision crucified and beams of light entered his hands, feet and sides mimicking the traditional five wounds of Christ.
Nowadays most Protestants think people with stigmata are basically faking it, but its doubtful such a pious man like Francis of Assisi would have done so, especially seeing that there was no prior tradition of stigmata before this.
It was rapidly associated with Galatians where Paul says the marks of Christ were on his body, so that some claim Paul was the first stigmatic. This was however a reference to Stigma or branding of slaves, essentially Paul was saying he was Christ's property.

An alternate origin for Francis's stigmata is Malaria. This disease causes hemolysis and bleeding, especially in blood rich organs like the liver and was endemic in Italy at the time and Francis had had malaria before. If we have superficial haemorrhage in the venous plexusses of the hands with a bleeding liver haematoma, this explains its first occurence. This is only a theory though. It is unlikely that we can definitively diagnose malaria and I don't see Francis faking it, so a miracle remains a possible explanation.

Regardless, I find Stigmata a strange concept, seeing that it is seen as blessing to suffer with Christ. I am sure many charlatans have claimed stigmata over the years, but who am I to dismiss all the cases? They should be investigated on a case by case basis. They do tend to be almost exclusively catholic, I have never heard of Orthodox stigmatics and the above is the only Protestant one I have come accross.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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This can be a very misunderstood topic, and I am still learning why suffering is often associated with greater reward in heaven.

It is my firm opinion that any stigmata that is self inflicted is wrong. No one should self harm. But there is a strong correlation between suffering for Christ and rewards in heaven.

It is a fact that Jesus said "there is no greater love than that a man should lay down his own life for his friends".

This shows us that the ultimate form of love is to give ones life for another. If you remember the story of the two brothers who asked to be seated either side of Christ in his kingdom, Jesus said "are you able to drink the cup that I will drink of", referring to his death on the cross. Jesus said because they wanted high position it would come at a high cost.

Jesus also said "take up your cross and follow me". Think of all the christians who have lived, and the great men and women in the bible both old and new testament, few of them suffered death. But of those who did, it was said they "sought a greater resurrection".

There are many forms of giving up of things for others. As an example as a man, I must give up any desire for things like porn, or adultery, tempting things. We must give up our desires for sin, so our families are blessed. As witnesses for Jesus we must give up our fears so we reach out to others, not worrying what people will think of us.

I believe that the harder we push against sin, and defeating satan the harder he pushes back. So we end up getting hurt, and when I say hurt I do mean physically. Every apostle bar one died for their faith. They fought hard, but had a hard time.

But all that said we are saved by grace, Christ's sacrifice was given to each of us so we could have life, and life abundantly. It is entirely our choice how hard we push against satan, the harder we push the greater the reward in heaven. But we do not have to be physically crucified to make it to heaven, christ did that for us. But we can before God choose death to share in Christ's sufferings.
 
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tz620q

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I believe that the harder we push against sin, and defeating satan the harder he pushes back. So we end up getting hurt, and when I say hurt I do mean physically. Every apostle but one died for their faith. They fought hard, but had a hard time.

I heard a statistic the other day that in the first 200 years of having a Bishop in Rome (Pope) only 3 died of natural causes. The rest were all martyred or murdered in some way, some within days of becoming the new Bishop of Rome.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I heard a statistic the other day that in the first 200 years of having a Bishop in Rome (Pope) only 3 died of natural causes. The rest were all martyred or murdered in some way, some within days of becoming the new Bishop of Rome.
wow
 
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Shane R

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Does your church talk about this subject?
No. Nor can I readily point you to a paper by an Anglican source on the subject.

Do you know anyone who's a stigmatic?
No. But I poked around and found that there have been a few claims of the stigmata appearing in Anglican adherents.

As for who can receive; I have no idea. But I do accept the possibility of the stigmata being a valid Christian phenomenon.
 
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Root of Jesse

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To my knowledge the practice of Stigmata is mainly a Catholic thing, and although I've never heard of any practicing stigmatic's in my denomination it would not surprise me if there are some out there in the Methodist faith considering it is so diverse in its faith, and beliefs.
I don't believe it's a practice, per se. It is a person being open to Christ's suffering being willing to suffer for others, and receiving a gift from Christ. St. Francis of Assisi obtained stigmata, as did St. Padre Pio.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I don't believe it's a practice, per se. It is a person being open to Christ's suffering being willing to suffer for others, and receiving a gift from Christ. St. Francis of Assisi obtained stigmata, as did St. Padre Pio.
Pardon my ignorance, but what I don't understand is why this is a gift? Stigmata after all is not suffering for others, but intensely personal suffering. Christ suffered for our sins, there was a purpose in it. Stigmata seems almost gratuitous suffering, I mean its not advantageous to the person, but painful and inconvenient. I guess it can remind them to keep their thoughts on Christ's suffering for our sake, but I really don't understand why especially pious people like Francis of Assisi would need this? If it is a sign to the rest of us, it isn't very effective as it leaves us at best confused.
Could you explain the Catholic defense of it to me, if possible?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Pardon my ignorance, but what I don't understand is why this is a gift? Stigmata after all is not suffering for others, but intensely personal suffering. Christ suffered for our sins, there was a purpose in it. Stigmata seems almost gratuitous suffering, I mean its not advantageous to the person, but painful and inconvenient. I guess it can remind them to keep their thoughts on Christ's suffering for our sake, but I really don't understand why especially pious people like Francis of Assisi would need this? If it is a sign to the rest of us, it isn't very effective as it leaves us at best confused.
Could you explain the Catholic defense of it to me, if possible?
If you make it the purpose of your suffering, then it becomes the purpose of your suffering.
Do you know about the spiritual and corporeal works of mercy? Jesus told us of the corporeal-feed the hungry, give drink to the thirst, clothe the naked, give succor to the imprisoned, and so on. You might think it's hard to do all those things, yet Jesus told us that, if you don't, he will say to you "I never knew you". So how can a family on foodstamps who can't even feed themselves well do these things? A mother feeds the hungry by giving her children food, and it's a work of mercy if she does it with that implied intention. And so forth (don't wanna get too far into the weeds).
By the same token, you can lift up your suffering for the intention of others. It shows great strenghth to suffer silently and with a smile on your face. St. Francis of Assisi is known to never have complained about his stigmata. In fact, he walked everywhere he went, on purpose, even though he had nails sticking through the bottoms of his feet.
I'm not confused at all. If I am called to do the same, I would gladly accept what God has in order to serve Him better.
Remember, St. Paul said he had a thorn in his side and asked God several times to remove it. God told him that His strength was sufficient for him (Paul), and Paul willingly endured whatever that very real pain was. I can tell you about a nun who was practically paralyzed and couldn't speak for more than 10 years, she just died recently. She lived her life in pain, and never complained about it, in fact, more often than not, made fun of it. I also know a father who suffered for years with cancer, and never took pain killers as a sign of strength to his children.
You do have to consciously offer up your pain, though.
 
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Job8

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Would like to hear your thoughts about the stigmata.
Stigmata are purely a Roman Catholic phenomenon, arising from the contemplation of the wounds of Christ. There is no scriptural basis for this, although there is no doubt that they do occur (and are deemed to be a pathological phenomenon).

B. B. Warfield has written on this subject from the Protestant perspective in Counterfeit Miracles. He points out that the problem is that these individuals believed that they were participating in the atoning work of Christ. But Scripture tells us that Christ alone was the Lamb of God who suffered and died for the sins of the world. And since He finished His work and declared "It is finished", that should be the end of the matter.
 
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Job8

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Nowadays most Protestants think people with stigmata are basically faking it, but its doubtful such a pious man like Francis of Assisi would have done so, especially seeing that there was no prior tradition of stigmata before this.
Even the Catholic writer Francesco Petrarch believed that Francis of Assisi's experience was as much a result of his own intense focus on the wounds of Christ, as anything supernatural. IOW mind over matter ("the forces of his own mind working on his body").
 
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Man on Fire

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Jesus lives in us. God is the Lord of Hosts. Your body is a Host for his Spirit. Venturing far enough into spiritual things and Faith, and stigmata could or may happen. The question is why? It won't happen because someone needs attention. It won't happen because someone wants it to happen. It may happen because God is shepherding someone someway.

I went through a trial similar to Elisha with Elijah May 24, 2014. https://did%3Da143eda53f21b05aaae515fc9a42935a97a69a06%3Bid%3D131107895787%3Bkey%3D7bBgUHBj51lqUdmQsaWk_A%3Bname%3Dmanonfire63
In July 2014 I started to come down with some stigmata. I was doing somethings online and prophesying. I felt some people believed I was Jesus. I started itching on my wrists and ankles around where the wounds of Christ would be. I rubbed where it itched a lot, and started rubbing off skin until I started to appear to have wounds to an visible extent. I felt if I did not assert myself as being not being Jesus quick enough, then God was going to make some sort of living proof of his existence in a way I would not care for. I am not Jesus.
 
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Meowzltov

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My personal opinion is that the stigmata are the empath's gift. Just as the empath will cough when someone in the room coughs, and laugh when someone in the room laughs, they suffer when they consider Christ's passion. An extreme empath who devotes a lot of time to meditating on the suffering of Christ can possibly develop the very wounds that Christ had--a process known in psychology as "conversion." They therefore are giftted in sharing in His suffering in a unique and special way.
 
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Arsenios

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My personal opinion is that the stigmata are the empath's gift. Just as the empath will cough when someone in the room coughs, and laugh when someone in the room laughs, they suffer when they consider Christ's passion. An extreme empath who devotes a lot of time to meditating on the suffering of Christ can possibly develop the very wounds that Christ had--a process known in psychology as "conversion." They therefore are giftted in sharing in His suffering in a unique and special way.

Padre Pio was the last great Stigmatic Catholic Saint...
He was clairvoyant and a great Confessor of the Faith...
I have not heard of anyone after him having the stigmata...

Roman Catholic Catechism used to instruct the faithful to meditate on the "Stations of the Cross" by telling them to "Imagine yourself going through Christ's sufferings at each of these points... How He felt, what His hands felt like as the spikes were driven into each hand and both feet..." etc etc...

This imaginative process, when done intensely for a prolonged time and over a protracted time, has been used to account for the appearance of the stigmata... Just as hypnosis can cause blood to come through the skin, or a wound to stop bleeding... If this is true, then it is a natural phenomena... The Orthodox do not use imagination in their meditations on Christ, and have no tradition of the Stigmata...

That instruction is, as far as I know, no longer given to the RCC faithful... They still have, and simply pray by remembrance with tears, the 'stations of the Cross.'

Arsenios
 
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FireDragon76

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My personal opinion is that the stigmata are the empath's gift. ...They therefore are giftted in sharing in His suffering in a unique and special way.

That seems reasonable. Most people that are stigmatic seem sensitive and have the personality trait of being open to experience

I don't think a fully scientific explanation is adequate, though. Mostly because we don't fully understand how the mind works- stigmata do not easily fit with a materialistic view of the mind for sure. Also because stigmatists usually have other paranormal manifestations, such as healing or clairvoyance. Perhaps the issue is how westerners tend to think of the relationship of divine transcendence and immanence- usually focusing only on transcendence.

Stigmata is largely unknown in the Orthodox tradition (though there has been at least one Orthodox stigmatist), but that's probably because Orthodoxy doesn't focus on the human suffering of Christ. On Holy Friday the focus is on the wonder of the Creator being seized, abused, tried, and killed by the creature. It's more of a difference of emphasis.

This is an old Arthur C. Clarke documentary on stigmata. Most of the cases described are not actually Roman Catholics. I found the Pentecostal woman's case to be quite astonishing, as you can literally see wounds opening up on her hands.


It's interesting though that Clarke was basically an agnostic and yet he doesn't seem phased by stigmata, confident that there is a scientific explanation that doesn't include God. Which just goes to show you in the end our presuppositions about reality actually in some sense determine what we consider important. I've been reading more about this problem with secular western culture recently, disenchantment and an autonomous, isolated self that heavily filters experiences of the world. Many people have spiritual experiences that are medicalized or psychologized away. Paul Veerhoven, the famous Dutch film director famous for violent and sexually explicit films, had a spiritual experience after helping his girlfriend get an abortion, but it actually encouraged him to get away from his inner life and pour himself into his filmmaking. It didn't cause him to question whether he needed to repent, he just assumed he was going crazy.

As Chesterton and the Inklings of Oxford (Lewis, Tolkein, etc.) pointed out a long time ago, an imagination is a necessary part of a Christian life. Perhaps not to the degree that western people often take it, but without imagination there is no possibility for wonder. Modern secular people essentially live in a banal world where the imagination is channeled into purely economic or materialistic activities. Multinational corporations become our gods, myths, and temples (indeed, scientists have discovered that there is indeed something "religious" in peoples devotions to brands).

B. B. Warfield has written on this subject from the Protestant perspective in Counterfeit Miracles. He points out that the problem is that these individuals believed that they were participating in the atoning work of Christ. But Scripture tells us that Christ alone was the Lamb of God who suffered and died for the sins of the world. And since He finished His work and declared "It is finished", that should be the end of the matter.

I don't see the phenomenon as denying the "work of Christ", I see it more as a form of union with Christ, which actually is not "anti-Protestant" in and of itself. To rationalistic minds this may not make much sense (salvation as divine union) but it is actually present in the early Protestant reformers such as Calvin and Luther. Their followers, on the other hand were scholastics and they tended to try to reduce salvation to purely legal categories.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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That seems reasonable. Most people that are stigmatic seem sensitive and have the personality trait of being open to experience

I don't think a fully scientific explanation is adequate, though. Mostly because we don't fully understand how the mind works- stigmata do not easily fit with a materialistic view of the mind for sure. Also because stigmatists usually have other paranormal manifestations, such as healing or clairvoyance. Perhaps the issue is how westerners tend to think of the relationship of divine transcendence and immanence- usually focusing only on transcendence.

Stigmata is largely unknown in the Orthodox tradition (though there has been at least one Orthodox stigmatist), but that's probably because Orthodoxy doesn't focus on the human suffering of Christ. On Holy Friday the focus is on the wonder of the Creator being seized, abused, tried, and killed by the creature. It's more of a difference of emphasis.

This is an old Arthur C. Clarke documentary on stigmata. Most of the cases described are not actually Roman Catholics. I found the Pentecostal woman's case to be quite astonishing, as you can literally see wounds opening up on her hands.


It's interesting though that Clarke was basically an agnostic and yet he doesn't seem phased by stigmata, confident that there is a scientific explanation that doesn't include God. Which just goes to show you in the end our presuppositions about reality actually in some sense determine what we consider important. I've been reading more about this problem with secular western culture recently, disenchantment and an autonomous, isolated self that heavily filters experiences of the world. Many people have spiritual experiences that are medicalized or psychologized away. Paul Veerhoven, the famous Dutch film director famous for violent and sexually explicit films, had a spiritual experience after helping his girlfriend get an abortion, but it actually encouraged him to get away from his inner life and pour himself into his filmmaking. It didn't cause him to question whether he needed to repent, he just assumed he was going crazy.

As Chesterton and the Inklings of Oxford (Lewis, Tolkein, etc.) pointed out a long time ago, an imagination is a necessary part of a Christian life. Perhaps not to the degree that western people often take it, but without imagination there is no possibility for wonder. Modern secular people essentially live in a banal world where the imagination is channeled into purely economic or materialistic activities. Multinational corporations become our gods, myths, and temples (indeed, scientists have discovered that there is indeed something "religious" in peoples devotions to brands).



I don't see the phenomenon as denying the "work of Christ", I see it more as a form of union with Christ, which actually is not "anti-Protestant" in and of itself. To rationalistic minds this may not make much sense (salvation as divine union) but it is actually present in the early Protestant reformers such as Calvin and Luther. Their followers, on the other hand were scholastics and they tended to try to reduce salvation to purely legal categories.
Excerpt from Miracles, published in the St. Jude's Gazette, by CS Lewis.


"I have known only one person in my life who claimed to have seen a ghost. It was a woman; and the interesting thing is that she disbelieved in the immortality of the soul before seeing the ghost and still disbelieves after having seen it. She thinks it was a hallucination. In other words, seeing is not believing. This is the first thing to get clear in talking about miracles. Whatever experiences we may have, we shall not regard them as miraculous if we already hold a philosophy which excludes the supernatural. Any event which is claimed as a miracle is, in the last resort, an experience received from the senses; and the senses are not infallible. We can always say we have been the victims of an illusion; if we disbelieve in the supernatural this is what we always shall say. Hence, whether miracles have really ceased or not, they would certainly appear to cease in Western Europe as materialism became the popular creed. For let us make no mistake. If the end of the world appeared in all the literal trappings of the Apocalypse, if the modern materialist saw with his own eyes the heavens rolled up and the great white throne appearing, if he had the sensation of being himself hurled into the Lake of Fire, he would continue forever, in that lake itself, to regard his experience as an illusion and to find the explanation of it in psycho-analysis, or cerebral pathology. Experience by itself proves nothing. If a man doubts whether he is dreaming or waking, no experiment can solve his doubt, since every experiment may itself be part of the dream. Experience proves this, or that, or nothing, according to the preconceptions we bring to it.

This fact, that the interpretation of experiences depends on preconceptions, is often used as an argument against miracles. It is said that our ancestors, taking the supernatural for granted, and greedy of wonders, read the miraculous into events that were really not miracles. And in a sense I grant it. That is to say, I think that just as our preconceptions would prevent us from apprehending miracles if they really occurred, so their preconceptions would lead them to imagine miracles even if they did not occur. In the same way, the doting man will think his wife faithful when she is not and the suspicious man will not think her faithful when she is: the question of her actual fidelity remains, meanwhile, to be settled, if at all, on other grounds. But there is one thing often said about our ancestors which we must not say. We must not say “They believed in miracles because they did not know the Laws of Nature.” This is nonsense. When St. Joseph discovered that his bride was pregnant, he was “minded to put her away.” He knew enough biology for that. Otherwise, of course he would not have regarded pregnancy as a proof of infidelity. When he accepted the Christian explanation, he regarded it as a miracle precisely because he knew enough of the Laws of Nature to know that this was a suspension of them. When the disciples saw Christ walking on the water they were frightened: they would not have been frightened unless they had known the laws of Nature and known that this was an exception. If a man had no conception of a regular order in Nature, then of course he could not notice departures from that order: just as the dunce who does not understand the normal metre of a poem is also unconscious of the poet’s variations from it. Nothing is wonderful except the abnormal and nothing is abnormal until we have grasped the norm. Complete ignorance of the laws of nature would preclude the perception of the miraculous just as rigidly as complete disbelief in the supernatural precludes it, perhaps even more so. For while the materialist would have at least to explain miracles away, the man wholly ignorant of Nature would simply not notice them.

The experience of a miracle in fact requires two conditions. First we must believe in a normal stability of nature, which means we must recognize that the data offered by our senses recur in regular patterns. Secondly, we must believe in some reality beyond Nature. When both beliefs are held, and not till then, we can approach with an open mind the various reports which claim that this super- or extra-natural reality has sometimes invaded and disturbed the sensuous content of space and time which makes our “natural” world. The belief in such a supernatural reality itself can neither be proved nor disproved by experience. The arguments for its existence are metaphysical, and to me conclusive. They turn on the fact that even to think and act in the natural world we have to assume something beyond it and even assume that we partly belong to that something. In order to think we must claim for our own reasoning a validity which is not credible if our own thought is merely a function of our brain, and our brains a by-product of irrational physical processes. In order to act, above the level of mere impulse, we must claim a similar validity for our judgments of good and evil. In both cases we get the same disquieting result. The concept of nature itself is one we have reached only tacitly by claiming a sort of super-natural status for ourselves."
 
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