The Statue of Mary

[DD2008]

Then why do you display such a incorrect understanding of the Catholic faith where Catholics on here have to keep correcting you on it?

I understand what they say and I don't give an incorrect presentation of what they claim. I disagree with what they claim on many issues and do not believe they can square their claims with scripture.

I think it would be better if you can prove where your premise comes from and why you accept it.

Christ used scripture as authoritative writing. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 claims that all scripture is inspired by God.

Even Christ himself could not prove anything to anyone who was not open to His word. You are not going to win anyone over with just shoving scripture in their face becuase we all have a different interpretation then you do.

His sheep hear his voice. The scriptures are God's written word. They are known as true naturally to those who know him because his sheep hear his voice.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

NOT according to the source catholics used for the 33,000 denominations comment so either quit using that number or accept the 242 denoms.

the Church teaches it is one and contains rites that are in unity with each other.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

His sheep hear his voice. The scriptures are God's written word. They are known as true naturally to those who know him because his sheep hear his voice.

I must not know Him then, since I disagree with you and have all these "unbiblical doctrines".

You know, people use this verse all the time to support whatever it is they believe. I can say right now that God wants me to be rich and if you disagree with the prosperity doctrine, I'll respond: "yea well the sheep KNOW His voice.."

Maybe instead of using it as an excuse to believe whatever we want, we can try listening to His voice and be open to what He might say, even if we don't like it.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm not going to post here anymore..

goodbye

 

[DD2008]

Welpt.... I would think you would start with the doctrine of sola scripture itself.... where's that at? when has that even been proven to be true using scripture alone?...

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Notice it says that the man of God may be complete. The man of God is a regenerate man who has been reborn. Also to be complete means you don't need to add anything to it.

John 10:27
[27] Mysheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;

Christ says scripture cannot be broken.

John 10:35
[35] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),

Peter clearly says scripture will be left so that the apostolic teachings can be remembered.

2 Peter 1:10-21
[10] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;
[11] so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Above Peter reminds the elect to be more zealous to confirm their election which meant to live for Christ. Only the elect really want to do that.

[12] Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
[13] I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,
[14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
[15] And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.


Above Peter says that he will make sure we will be able to recall apostolic teachings after the death of him and the apostles.

[16] For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
[17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,"
[18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

Above he established authority in the fact that he and the apostles were eyewitnesses of Christ.

[19] And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Above Peter claims that the apostles have the prophetic word which means they are like those prophets of old who wrote scripture inspired by God.

[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

After establishing his authority firmly Peter reveals the plan. He and the apostles are writing and are going to write scripture to be followed.

He assures the reader that the writer of scripture didn't write his own interpretation of the inspiration of the Spirit. He says that men who write scripture are moved by the Holy Spirit to speak from God. Roman Catholic apologists love to twist this in an attemot to make the listener believe that this means that scripture cannot be interpreted by one. It means that the WRITER did not follow his own interpretations instead he followed the inspiration of the Spirit.

Now many Catholics would object that the bible says this:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either byword of mouth or by letter.

Well, if one was lucky enough to stand in the presence of the Apostles of Christ and listen to a Holy Spirit inspired sermon by one of the eyewitnesses that person could indeed hold fast to that authoritative word that they heard from the lips of the apostles.

What happens when all the apostles are dead?

All you have left now is the Authoritative apostlolic traditions and teachings that are in the written letter! Since the mouth is in the grave awaiting the resurrection we are left only with the letter if we want to hear apostolic teachings at all.

Sola Scriptura is the only (sola) way to get authentic apostolic teachings and the only way available to the honest christian to hold fast to the authentic traditions taught by the apostles. God inspired them to write infallible scripture accounts of the things they witnessed with their own eyes.

No teacher today has that authority or that unique blessing from God.

The Sola Scriptura doctrine is biblical and obvious.

 

[DD2008]

Maybe instead of using it as an excuse to believe whatever we want, we can try listening to His voice and be open to what He might say, even if we don't like it.

That's exactly the thought that got me on my way to leaving the RCC.

 

[DD2008]

I'm not going to post here anymore..

goodbye

Congratulations! I've been trying to do that myself for pages now.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

welll I'm back lol.. but only to say one last thing!!

That's exactley the thought that got me to leave the RCC.

I didn't want to be Catholic when I felt God leading me there. This is evidence to me that it wasn't my own working, but His. I used the "His sheep know His voice" passage to make myself feel better when I was a Protestant, when I read Catholic or Orthodox arguments that seemed plausible.. I told myself, - no, Jesus showed me the truth, it's at my church, I know it, because I know Him.... then I read the Bible and used it to justify my Protestant views.

but when I started becoming Catholic, I was *against* it. I didn't want it. I wanted to be Protestant. I thought that in becoming Catholic, I'd have to leave behind my relationship with God and that I would no longer know Him.

I can be very resistant to God's will and very self-minded, and that's a big flaw I have, but at least in this case God used it for something good.

Remember, the heart is deceitful above all things. You might feel something is the truth. It might make perfect sense to you. It might even SEEM Biblical. But it can still be wrong. You can even try to open yourself up to God completely, and feel that you're truly open to His will, and not be. This has happened to me LOTS. The only way we really know if something is God's will...is if we have to die to self in the process of accepting it. I haven't fully died to self, not even close. God was merciful to me by almost forcing me to follow Him into the Church. But sometimes it did feel like leaving my own ideas and desires behind.

Im only saying this to say ...we never really know if we're being open to God or not. We might say we are, we might feel we are, but we're not really, - unless we have to deny ourselves in the process, unless it hurts to follow Him - and much MORE than it hurt me to begin considering Catholicism. We know we really love, when we love through pain, not just when it's easy.

Now I really do have to leave the thread

Peace.

 

[DD2008]

welll I'm back lol.. but only to say one last thing!!



I didn't want to be Catholic when I felt God leading me there. This is evidence to me that it wasn't my own working, but His. I used the "His sheep know His voice" passage to make myself feel better when I was a Protestant, when I read Catholic or Orthodox arguments that seemed plausible.. I told myself, - no, Jesus showed me the truth, it's at my church, I know it, because I know Him.... then I read the Bible and used it to justify my Protestant views.

but when I started becoming Catholic, I was *against* it. I didn't want it. I wanted to be Protestant. I thought that in becoming Catholic, I'd have to leave behind my relationship with God and that I would no longer know Him.

I can be very resistant to God's will and very self-minded, and that's a big flaw I have, but at least in this case God used it for something good.

Remember, the heart is deceitful above all things. You might feel something is the truth. It might make perfect sense to you. It might even SEEM Biblical. But it can still be wrong. You can even try to open yourself up to God completely, and feel that you're truly open to His will, and not be. This has happened to me LOTS. The only way we really know if something is God's will...is if we have to die to self in the process of accepting it. I haven't fully died to self, not even close. God was merciful to me by almost forcing me to follow Him into the Church. But sometimes it did feel like leaving my own ideas and desires behind.

Im only saying this to say ...we never really know if we're being open to God or not. We might say we are, we might feel we are, but we're not really, - unless we have to deny ourselves in the process, unless it hurts to follow Him - and much MORE than it hurt me to begin considering Catholicism. We know we really love, when we love through pain, not just when it's easy.

Now I really do have to leave the thread

Peace.

Understood. However, it is a far better bet to go with what can actually be referenced biblically than the things that simply aren't in there.

How could a sheep discern a voice that isn't there? At least with the bible there is text on the page that one can discern by grace.

See you around.

 

[benedictaoo]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Notice it says that the man of God may be complete. The man of God is a regenerate man who has been reborn. Also to be complete means you don't need to add anything to it.

John 10:27
[27] Mysheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;

Christ says scripture cannot be broken.

John 10:35
[35] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),

Peter clearly says scripture will be left so that the apostolic teachings can be remembered.

2 Peter 1:10-21
[10] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;
[11] so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Above Peter reminds the elect to be more zealous to confirm their election which meant to live for Christ. Only the elect really want to do that.

[12] Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
[13] I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,
[14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
[15] And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.


Above Peter says that he will make sure we will be able to recall apostolic teachings after the death of him and the apostles.

[16] For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
[17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,"
[18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

Above he established authority in the fact that he and the apostles were eyewitnesses of Christ.

[19] And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Above Peter claims that the apostles have the prophetic word which means they are like those prophets of old who wrote scripture inspired by God.

[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

After establishing his authority firmly Peter reveals the plan. He and the apostles are writing and are going to write scripture to be followed.

He assures the reader that the writer of scripture didn't write his own interpretation of the inspiration of the Spirit. He says that men who write scripture are moved by the Holy Spirit to speak from God. Roman Catholic apologists love to twist this in an attemot to make the listener believe that this means that scripture cannot be interpreted by one. It means that the WRITER did not follow his own interpretations instead he followed the inspiration of the Spirit.

Now many Catholics would object that the bible says this:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either byword of mouth or by letter.

Well, if one was lucky enough to stand in the presence of the Apostles of Christ and listen to a Holy Spirit inspired sermon by one of the eyewitnesses that person could indeed hold fast to that authoritative word that they heard from the lips of the apostles.

What happens when all the apostles are dead?

All you have left now is the Authoritative apostlolic traditions and teachings that are in the written letter! Since the mouth is in the grave awaiting the resurrection we are left only with the letter if we want to hear apostolic teachings at all.

Sola Scriptura is the only (sola) way to get authentic apostolic teachings and the only way available to the honest christian to hold fast to the authentic traditions taught by the apostles. God inspired them to write infallible scripture accounts of the things they witnessed with their own eyes.

No teacher today has that authority or that unique blessing from God.

The Sola Scriptura doctrine is biblical and obvious.

None of those verses say we are to use scripture alone.

They say scripture is good, holy and God word, something we do not deny...

but they do not say and you can't show me becuase there is no scripture to show, that says it is all we are to use. Where's that verse?

sola scripture is a contradiction unto itself becuase if it were true, the bible itself would say weare to use scripture solely and don't... so...

Look, Dave, you may have fallen for all that Calvinist rhetoric but i don't and I wil never.

 

[benedictaoo]

That's exactly the thought that got me on my way to leaving the RCC.

I thought it was due to the annulment process?

 

[benedictaoo]

His sheep hear his voice. The scriptures are God's written word. They are known as true naturally to those who know him because his sheep hear his voice.

Dave, the sheep hear the Holy Spirit and follow the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of truth never leads away from the Church.

He will always lead us to truth... and if you claim he has and I claim he has then something is not right, one of us are wrong.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

the Bible goes against sola scriptura. the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of all truth, and that we should follow what the Apostles said not just what they wrote. This doesn't sound like sola scriptura to me.

Understood. However, it is a far better bet to go with what can actually be referenced biblically than the things that simply aren't in there.

How could a sheep discern a voice that isn't there? At least with the bible there is text on the page that one can discern by grace.

See you around.

I keep on telling you.. it IS all in Scripture. But you're not listening.. oh well.

Our understanding is not perfect. If we feel or think that a doctrine is unBiblical, but all the Christians before us have believed it, and they're saying it is Biblical, we might as well examine that possibility and try to look at Scripture from a different angle. Cause there are various ways to interpret it. NOt just the Protestant way.

 

[benedictaoo]

Let's see you have EasternOrthodox, Byzentine Catholics, Ukrainian Greek Catholics, and Roman Catholics...so you have more than one denomination with Catholicism...

Those are not "denominations" of Catholicism.. they are not in union with us... now there are 22 rites of the Catholic Church and they are in union, they are one with the pope, so they aren't "denominations."

The EO are not denominations either becuase they are true churches, true diocese, true seats of the apostles. They are in schism with the pope but they are legitimate

It would help if y'all knew what a denomination is.. it is any church who is not legitimate who breaks off from the Catholic Church.

the Catholic Church can not be a denomination, she is the original Church Christ gave to us.

 

[DD2008]

It would help if y'all knew what a denomination is.. it is any church who is not legitimate who breaks off from the Catholic Church.

the Catholic Church can not be a denomination, she is the original Church Christ gave to us.

We believe the Catholic Church is the universal Church made up of all Christians.

The Roman Catholic Church is a denomination who claims superiority over the rest of christianity.

 

[benedictaoo]

It is as laughable as your sources.. wait, you never give any...

Look, I don't care about the 30,000+ claim.. 1 is all it takes but the claim that there are 200 what ever, denominations is what is false.

There are 22 rites that are in union, that makes us ONE Church.

I showed you where you claim originated form... the guy was counting the ONE Church in 262 countries.. that is where that numbers come from.

Now if you have "proof" by all means post these denominations of Catholics..

Zealot, look, if they are not IN UNION with the pope, that are not part of us. We can not be considered a denomination at all, it nonsesical. To be Catholic is to be one with the pope, to not be is to be either a schismatic or a denomination of the Reformation.

It's that simple.

Get real Armstrongs stuff is laughable...At least Catholic apologist Phil Porvasik is honest here is his report...

From CAF
He said...

I've done it. No one needs to do anymore work on this ever again:

Facts and Stats on "33000 Denominations"

The Protestant source World Christian Encyclopedia does indeed refer to "over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries..." (Table 1-5, vol 1, page 16). And when some people see this they think "Protestant" since Orthodox and Catholic are not normally considered "denominations." Steve Ray and James White broke down the source accurately however: the mega-blocs of "denominations" are as follows (rounding up or down slightly for convenience):

-- Independents (about 22000)
-- Protestants (about 9000)
-- "Marginals" (about 1600)
-- Orthodox (781)
-- Roman Catholics (242)
-- Anglicans (168)

So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:

22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+

That's where the 33,000 figure comes from. If you count the "mega-bloc" of "Protestants" only it is 9000 / 33000 or 27% of the total. However, if you combine Protestants with Independents and Anglicans ( [22000 + 9000 + 168] / 33000) it is 94% of the total or 31,000+ . We will see below that most (about 97%) of the "Independent" churches are indeed Protestants. Now that we have that settled, I will examine what the source says about each of these "mega-blocs." All of the information below is found on pages 16-18 (volume 1) of the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition).

The problem is not the 9000 vs. 33000 figure, but the WAY the source is counting and separating by country thus generating DUPLICATES of denoms in many countries. I have already attempted to solve and figure out this problem (something that neither James White, Steve Ray, or Tim Staples has done yet).

This is explicitly stated by the WCE here:

“As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world's 238 countries.” (Barrett, et al, World Christian Encyclopedia, volume 1, page 27, in the "Glossary" under definition for "Denomination" [later updated to 242], emphasis added)

As for specific Protestant non-duplicate (i.e. unique) denominations, you can take the online data available from "World Christian Database" online, the inheritors and updaters of the same WCE data. They give you 9000+ total Christian denominations to work with: deleting out the "Roman Catholics" "Orthodox" "Marginal" and non-Protestant "Independents" (only 3% of those are non-Protestant, 97% are Protestant) from these you are left with 5000+ total unique Protestant denominations. See this link:

A specific list of 5000+ Protestant denominations

The data for this PHP file was generated from the .csv and .xls data provided by "Global Christianity" / "World Christian Database" online (the zip file has the total 9000+ with the mega-blocs mentioned above, also "non-affiliated" Christians)

DENOMS-BY-NAME.zip

Thank you. The thread can now be closed. The solution to the "33000" enigma has now been solved.

BTW, it is now 40000+ (Jan 2009) and by 2025 it will be 55000 (with the "counting by country" duplicates problem mentioned earlier).

Phil P

 

[benedictaoo]

We believe the Catholic Church is the universal Church made up of all Christians.

The Roman Catholic Church is a denomination who claims superiority over the rest of christianity.

well you would be mistaken.

 

[DD2008]

Dave, the sheep hear the Holy Spirit and follow the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of truth never leads away from the Church.

He will always lead us to truth... and if you claim he has and I claim he has then something is not right, one of us are wrong.

I believe I didn't leave the Church. I left a denomination inthe Church I didn't agree with.

Don't get me wrong, I think you are very well meaning and sincere in your beliefs and I respect you for that, but I disagree that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church. I believe in the Universal Church.

I never left Christ's Church. He wouldn't want a Christian to do that.

 

[benedictaoo]

I believe I didn't leave the Church. I left a denomination inthe Church I didn't agree with.

Don't get me wrong, I think you are very well meaning and sincere in your beliefs and I respect you for that, but I disagree that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church. I believe in the Universal Church.

I never left Christ's Church. He wouldn't want a Christian to do that.

False dichotomy.

 

[DD2008]

the Bible goes against sola scriptura. the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of all truth, and that we should follow what the Apostles said not just what they wrote. This doesn't sound like sola scriptura to me.

The very next verse it talks about the gospel. I've noticed a theme with you when you repeat apologetic scriptures. You miss the next few verses.

The gospel is the truth that the Church holds up. So teh truth is the Gospel of Christ found in the inspired scriptures.

I keep on telling you.. it IS all in Scripture. But you're not listening.. oh well.

You have told me but not shown me. I don't remember reading about those doctrines in my bible.

Our understanding is not perfect. If we feel or think that a doctrine is unBiblical, but all the Christians before us have believed it, and they're saying it is Biblical, we might as well examine that possibility and try to look at Scripture from a different angle. Cause there are various ways to interpret it. NOt just the Protestant way

There is different ways to interpret it, not just the Catholic way. We now have acces to scripture like never before since it has been translated into the vernacular and since the advent of the printing press...etc. We are now in a digital age.

In the past those few who could read scripture at all mainly had to do it in a tongue that wasn't their native tongue. We're lucky they got close at all to what it meant.

We now have great access to scripture. We can get a great translation of the bible in our own tongue for less than a Mcdonalds value meal on any given day. Now we even have it on-line for free.