The Statue of Mary

[DD2008]

Unsubscribing. I said all I'm going to say about it.

 

[MamaZ]

To deny Mary her image or Christ His is to deny that they lived and breathed.

This to me is silly..

 

[MamaZ]

I answered you in the "not listening" thread.. I know the irony.. why do you put flowers on a grave?

That's why.

abel came back and answered all of your own questions...

He said it perfectly.

This whole thing has really and truly been answered and if you are not going to read and read the articles I poste here then "your not listening..."

Sorry but I didn't go back and read what was written because the thread was closed due to the fact that no one listened to the Mod and kept speaking of Mary.. That is the reason I did not read what was written.

 

[MamaZ]

well let see.. Yes I put flowers on graves when I can. But I don't dress the head stone and parade it around town.. Do you see the difference there?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Bene, good posts I agree.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

well let see.. Yes I put flowers on graves when I can. But I don't dress the head stone and parade it around town.. Do you see the difference there?

the services you're talking about, that's just a way that we can honour Mary TOGETHER, in community it brings believers together. So if there was a procession of people that went to the graveyard and all together put flowers of the grave of a famous person, that's essentially the same thing.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I call all of us creatures. We are. God created us. To speak the truth that humans are creatures is not dehumanizing it is true.

I call Mary blessed because she is the Mother of Christ but I deny that she should be prayed too and I deny all the unbiblical Marian dogmas.

DD, why would you ask your friend to pray for you but not the Mother of God? Aren't her prayers better than those of your friends, since she's in Heaven and "the prayers of a righteous man avail much"?

1. Because they aren't supported in scripture and
2. Because they take the focus off of Christ and glorify her instead of God.

I just wanted to say.. that the more I focus on Mary, the easier I find to focus on Christ. She leads us to Christ. That's her "job", you might say. when we say "Mary", she says "Jesus".

Do you believe that we as creatures can bring God glory? That we can glorify Him? So if we call Mary sinless, who does this glorify - her, or God? Doesn't it glorify God, who made her sinless, so that His Son would not be dishonoured by being in her womb? You forget brother, everything God did for Mary was for the sake of Christ's glory. She's sinless for His glory. She was taken up into Heaven for His glory. ETC. As we pray.. "Blessed be God in His angels and in His Saints."

also, after looking at Scripture carefully, I found none of the doctrines contradict Scripture.

We can honor our fathers and mothers by showing them respect and helping them with what they need. We only do what they tell us however when we are children. Many times adult children make far better decisions than their parents. There is no reason to believe that Christ obeys Mary in heaven. I firmly believe it is the other way around.

you misunderstand.. Mary only does His will. So if she prays for something, its already in God's will. Of course He would answer any of her prayers then!

I reject the writings of Louis de Montfort as false and unfounded, written by a probable heretic. I think that the consecration he peddled is certainly idolatry. He asks people to consecrate their soul to Mary and give her their "treasury of merits" (another lie) so they can trust her to take them to Christ because he thinks people aren't worthy to pray directly to God and to do so he says is presumptuous and arrogant...

I on the other hand, I think St Louis de Montfort's teaching is from Heaven and it's an awesome way to achieve holiness. Actually, at first I doubted them too and feared it's all idolatry. I asked God to show me. By the evening of this day, He did. He changed my mind. That's when I realized that the only reason I understood even a bit of his writings at all is because God gave me the necessary grace to understand them.

I noticed many times when people dismiss the Total Consecration or de Montfort, - that's often because they don't see that Mary leads us perfectly to Christ. She perfects our efforts to love Him. She teaches us how.

Also, what de Montfort said has been supported by several Popes and Saints, and is accepted by the Church. His writings were examined in detail before he was canonized as a Saint.

Also, the consecration is more accurately to Jesus through Mary, not to Mary herself for her sake. It's not that he thinks we can't pray to God. But that Mary perfects our prayers and applies her merits to them. I think the whole teaching encourages humility.

I pray to Jesus, I also pray to Mary

However Christ said this:

Matthew 6:9-13
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

do you ONLY say this prayer? do you ever pray in your own words? If so, why? Didn't Christ say to use this prayer?

hope you see where I'm going with this.....

Christ gave us this prayer as a model of how to pray to the Father. In the Catholic Church, we use this prayer A LOT, as you probably know. Every time we pray the Rosary, we say it 5 times.

We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Works are just a product of faith already received. The good news is that salvation is through Jesus Christ and it is free.

Romans 10:9-13
[9] because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will besaved.
[10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
[13] For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

Epshesians 2:8-9
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

There is no other gospel than this:

Acts 4:10-12
[10] be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well.
[11] This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner.
[12] And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

and faith without works is dead.

there's such a thing as works under grace too. Just because we're saved by Christ doesn't mean we do nothing.

See the Church teaches that we're saved by grace alone but not by faith alone. There IS a difference. Because as I said, there are works under grace too, which are not works of the law.

I don't really see how any of this relates to the thread though. how does it relate to Mary or even St Louis de Montfort..?

 

[DD2008]

DD, why would you ask your friend to pray for you but not the Mother of God? Aren't her prayers better than those of your friends, since she's in Heaven and "the prayers of a righteous man avail much"?

I had unsubscribed to this thread, but I'll answer your post since you took the time to write it to me.

Any friend I ask to pray for me will be here with me on the plain of history. I reject any imputation of faith through prayer to anyone other than God. I firmly believe we should only pray to God.

I just wanted to say.. that the more I focus on Mary, the easier I find to focus on Christ. She leads us to Christ. That's her "job", you might say. when we say "Mary", she says "Jesus".

I have no problem with looking at any scriptural example of her or any other biblical character and meditating on the lessons thereof as something that teaches one about God. However all prayer and all devotions in faith go to God alone.

Do you believe that we as creatures can bring God glory? That we can glorify Him? So if we call Mary sinless, who does this glorify - her, or God? Doesn't it glorify God, who made her sinless, so that His Son would not be dishonoured by being in her womb? You forget brother, everything God did for Mary was for the sake of Christ's glory. She's sinless for His glory. She was taken up into Heaven for His glory. ETC. As we pray.. "Blessed be God in His angels and in His Saints."

I don't believe Mary is sinless. I believe that sin is imputed through the male line from Adam as the federal head. Christ's father is God so he did not receive the sin of Adam. He was tempted externally by the devil not from any flaw within himself. Females cannot imput original sin to their children. The fallen nature and the guilt comes from our fathers. Mary's father was Joachim who sinned like everyone else. The immaculate conception is a lie the RCC made up in order to explain Christ's sinlessness because they didn't understand the scriptures.

also, after looking at Scripture carefully, I found none of the doctrines contradict Scripture.

Romans 3:22-26 Christ is the only sinless person. All have sinned, including Mary.
[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
[23] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[25] whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
[26] it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

you misunderstand.. Mary only does His will. So if she prays for something, its already in God's will. Of course He would answer any of her prayers then!

She doesn't need to pray if she is in heaven. However the scriptures tell us not to guess who is in heaven. However we do know that all who has faith in Christ will not be put to shame.

Romans 10:6-11
[6] But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down)
[7] or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
[8] But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
[9] because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
[11] The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."

I noticed many times when people dismiss the Total Consecration or de Montfort,
Also, what de Montfort said has been supported by several Popes and Saints, and is accepted by the Church. His writings were examined in detail before he was canonized as a Saint.

I think that Montforts consecration is idolatrous. I reject it completely.

Galatians 1:8-9
[8] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

Also, the consecration is more accurately to Jesus through Mary, not to Mary herself for her sake. It's not that he thinks we can't pray to God. But that Mary perfects our prayers and applies her merits to them. I think the whole teaching encourages humility.

There is no reason to go to anyone but the Lord for salvation. Why toy with praying to the finite creation when by the merits of Christ and the grace of God the Father we have access directly to the Almighty through the mediation of Christ and the intercession of the Spirit?

I pray to Jesus, I also pray to Mary

Romans 8:26
[26] Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us withsighs too deep for words.

do you ONLY say this prayer? do you ever pray in your own words? If so, why? Didn't Christ say to use this prayer?

The point is that Christ taught us to pray to God. He said "pray like this." The person being addressed is God. There is not one place in the bible where prayer to any other person than God is called anything but idolatrous.

hope you see where I'm going with this.....

Yep. Exactly the same place I used to go with it....before I realized I was wrong and repented.

and faith without works is dead.

Works come from faith. When James says faith without works is dead he simply means that your works are evidence of your faith. If you don't want to do works you're probably not an elect. It's the same concept where Paul said to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. It means reverence and awe, not panic and shaking. The very next verse says that it is God working within you.

Philippians 2:13
[13] for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

there's such a thing as works under grace too. Just because we're saved by Christ doesn't mean we do nothing.

If you do nothing you aren't saved. Salvation is a rebirth. Man is dead in sin and cannot please or even choose God. God quickens the dead soul of man to make it able to love him. When this happens man is able to do good works through grace for the right reasons. If one says they are saved and doesn't have the desire to do good works it is an indicator that their faith is dead and they could be in the number that Matthew tells us will be told to depart from the Lord because he never knew them even though they claimed him.

I don't really see how any of this relates to the thread though. how does it relate to Mary or even St Louis de Montfort

Marian doctrines are false and even heretical, and at their core actually preach a different gospel than propigated by the Apostles as they proclaim Mary is co-mediatrix, sinless, etc. Some are even pushing to have her called co-redemptrix which means there are many today in the Roman Catholic Church that believe that Mary is necessary for salvation. I agree with Karl Barth that the marian doctrines are the great heresy of the Roman Catholic Church.

So, those verses are inspired by God and say what they say. Our salvation is in Christ our Lord. No one else. That was the point. All these statues of Mary, devotions to her, and prayers to her are nothing but an enormous waste of time that the person invloved in them could have been spending with God himself. We are a priesthood of believers with direct access to God in prayer.


Unsubscribing again.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I had unsubscribed to this thread, but I'll answer your post since you took the time to write it to me.

thanks brother! I appreciate that.

Any friend I ask to pray for me will be here with me on the plain of history. I reject any imputation of faith through prayer to anyone other than God. I firmly believe we should only pray to God.

in the Bible, it says that we are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. Do you believe that God is with you even though He is in Heaven? Do you believe that angels are around us even though we can't see them? Heaven is not far away once people die, they don't leave the Church. THey're still "in Christ", so they are still in the Church. We ask the Saints or Mary to pray for us in the same way that we ask our friends to pray for us. They are not any less "here with us" or "alive" than our friends on earth..in fact, they are more alive, not less. Didn't Christ say, we would live even though we die?

I have no problem with looking at any scriptural example of her or any other biblical character and meditating on the lessons thereof as something that teaches one about God. However all prayer and all devotions in faith go to God alone.

God decides how to answer every prayer.. do you think that when we talk to Mary He doesn't hear? He does.. and decides what the answer will be.. but the reason we "pray to" Mary is because we ask her to pray for us to God, just like we ask our friends on earth. In this way, we glorify God, because He is glorified when His children love one another. It is an expression of love to pray for one another. Those in Heaven are filled with His love.

I don't believe Mary is sinless.

I used to think she's not too.. but think about this.. Jesus got His Body from her. He was also in her womb. If she has sin, - then the Son of God..the Word..was born of a sinner. IMO, this dishonours Him. We are not even allowed to receive Communion without first repenting of sin.. and what Mary did, that goes even further.. because not only was Christ in her, but He got His Body from her.
Her sinlessness was by grace.. as the angel called her, "FULL of grace". The Greek word for "full" here, means completely full - there was literally no room for sin in her, she was so filled with God's grace! she was saved by God at the moment of her conception..

I believe that sin is imputed through the male line from Adam as the federal head.

why do you believe this?

Christ's father is God so he did not receive the sin of Adam. He was tempted externally by the devil not from any flaw within himself. Females cannot imput original sin to their children. The fallen nature and the guilt comes from our fathers. Mary's father was Joachim who sinned like everyone else. The immaculate conception is a lie the RCC made up in order to explain Christ's sinlessness because they didn't understand the scriptures.

the EO also believe that Mary was without sin, and the reason they don't believe in the IC is because they don't see original sin like we do. But they'd agree that Mary was sinless. So you have the two oldest forms of Christianity saying that Mary was sinless.. how can it be that it took 1500 years for someone to understand the Scriptures correctly? Actually, do you know that Luther venerated Mary too? It was only later in the reformation that the idea of the Immaculate Conception was disagreed with.. the idea of Mary being sinless comes from the early Church, and she was venerated in the early Church. It seems that it's the Protestant understanding that's the invention here, not the traditional understanding..

even if it's true that sin comes from fathers, not mothers, it would still have dishonoured Christ to be inside the womb of a sinful woman. Every sin hurts God, dishonours Him, and separates us from Him. The respect we give to Jesus' Mother, goes to Him, because it was for His sake that she was made pure..

Romans 3:22-26 Christ is the only sinless person. All have sinned, including Mary.
[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
[23] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[25] whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
[26] it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

in the language, they used the same word for "many" and "all". The Bible was written for humanity in general, it's a message from God... everyone who reads the Bible is a sinner. It does not mean that God chose one person out of the rest to be sinless, for His glory.

She doesn't need to pray if she is in heaven.

let's say you went to Heaven, would you forget all your loved ones on earth? wouldn't you pray to God for them?

However the scriptures tell us not to guess who is in heaven. However we do know that all who has faith in Christ will not be put to shame.

are you saying that Mary might have went to hell?

I think that Montforts consecration is idolatrous. I reject it completely.

oki, do you think that those who believe in it are damned and will go to hell for idolatry?

yet..it is not idolatry to want to come closer to Christ.... if I told you - the Bible leads us closer to God, so let's all read the Bible.. would you call this idolatry? why not? Isn't it just like saying, Mary leads us closer to God, so let's be devoted to Mary? what is wrong with having something that would lead us closer to God? And how can the Mother of God not lead us to God.. when she is so surrendered to His will... she's the opposite of the devil, cause they're both creatures, yet she is humble, and he is proud.. he is afraid of her. We are safe with Mary's protection.

Galatians 1:8-9
[8] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

de Montfort never preached a different gospel or message of salvation. He believed that we're saved by the Cross.

There is no reason to go to anyone but the Lord for salvation. Why toy with praying to the finite creation when by the merits of Christ and the grace of God the Father we have access directly to the Almighty through the mediation of Christ and the intercession of the Spirit?

Mary leads us to Christ who saves us.

that is not going to Mary for salvation.. that is going to Mary so that she would lead us more surely to Jesus, who is salvation.

Yes we have access to Christ's merits, and they're always applied to us in any case, but the thing is that while He is perfect, we are not.. our prayers are not.. what Mary does, according to de Montfort, is she perfects our prayers and works so that we come to Him in a more perfect way AND THEREFORE are more open to His grace. Have you ever wondered why some people receive so much grace and others receive so little? This is a mystery.. but if we go to Jesus through Mary, she would help us be more open to His graces, so that we would be able to have greater access to them. We ALWAYS have all of His grace available to us. But many times we are closed to it. The limitation is in US, not in God. By being truly devoted to Mary, we no longer have this limitation.

The point is that Christ taught us to pray to God. He said "pray like this." The person being addressed is God. There is not one place in the bible where prayer to any other person than God is called anything but idolatrous.

so please don't ask your friends to pray for you anymore cause that's what "praying to Saints" is too.

Yep. Exactly the same place I used to go with it....before I realized I was wrong and repented.

I can say the same thing.

Works come from faith. When James says faith without works is dead he simply means that your works are evidence of your faith. If you don't want to do works you're probably not an elect. It's the same concept where Paul said to work out your salvation in fear and trembling. It means reverence and awe, not panic and shaking. The very next verse says that it is God working within you.

Philippians 2:13
[13] for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

I'm sorry but how does this relate?
we believe that works come from faith too... it still remains that we need BOTH works AND faith to be saved. Cause if we ONLY have faith, then that faith is dead and can't save us. So that's where works come in.

If you do nothing you aren't saved. Salvation is a rebirth. Man is dead in sin and cannot please or even choose God. God quickens the dead soul of man to make it able to love him. When this happens man is able to do good works through grace for the right reasons. If one says they are saved and doesn't have the desire to do good works it is an indicator that their faith is dead and they could be in the number that Matthew tells us will be told to depart from the Lord because he never knew them even though they claimed him.

do you believe that we don't cooperate with God's grace, but that He forces it on us? But then why and how do some people go to hell? Does God hate them?

Marian doctrines are false and even heretical, and at their core actually preach a different gospel than propigated by the Apostles as they proclaim Mary is co-mediatrix, sinless, etc. Some are even pushing to have her called co-redemptrix which means there are many today in the Roman Catholic Church that believe that Mary is necessary for salvation. I agree with Karl Barth that the marian doctrines are the great heresy of the Roman Catholic Church.

to be honest I'm not sure if you understand them. I believe in all the Marian doctrines. I also believe that we're saved by Christ. The two are not in conflict and never were.. I was never tempted to worship Mary as a Catholic. Even when I read de Montfort! (neither did he worship her)

So, those verses are inspired by God and say what they say. Our salvation is in Christ our Lord. No one else.

here's what I don't understand brother.. WHO here is saying that Mary saves us? De Montfort didn't say this either. This is your interpretation of Catholicism. It is incorrect.. I'm sorry. We ALL believe that only Christ saves us. And the point of Mary devotion, is that she leads us closer to her Son, who saves us.

That was the point. All these statues of Mary, devotions to her, and prayers to her are nothing but an enormous waste of time that the person invloved in them could have been spending with God himself. We are a priesthood of believers with direct access to God in prayer.
Unsubscribing again.

why do we spend time with other Christians then, if we could be spending it with God?

Christianity was never individualistic.. it's never "just me and God"..

Peace

 

[MoNiCa4316]

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[Sphinx777]

Discovery of the LOST ARK! (1/3)
Discovery of the LOST ARK! (2/3)
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Discovery of the LOST ARK! (3/3)


​

 

[&Abel]

Discovery of the LOST ARK! (1/3)
Discovery of the LOST ARK! (2/3)
​

Discovery of the LOST ARK! (3/3)


​

LOL this guy has the nerve to say that because Christ is the Last Adam, Mary is the new Eve

does he not even realize how ridiculous that is?

I mean seriously!

 

[DD2008]

thanks brother! I appreciate that.

Sure. However we just had a discussion on this last week: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7347035

in the Bible, it says that we are surrounded by the cloud of witnesses. Do you believe that God is with you even though He is in Heaven?

There are a great cloud of witnesses who have finished the race. All that we have ever done will be made public to everyone at the judgement. We can learn by the examples of people that served God in the bible. However none of their examples include prayer to anyone other than God. So why would we assume we are free to do such a thing with no scriptural warrant? THe answer is we shouldn't. The commandments are clear. The example Christ gave us is clear. We should only pray to God.

God decides how to answer every prayer.. do you think that when we talk to Mary He doesn't hear? He does.. and decides what the answer will be.. but the reason we "pray to" Mary is because we ask her to pray for us to God, just like we ask our friends on earth. In this way, we glorify God, because He is glorified when His children love one another. It is an expression of love to pray for one another. Those in Heaven are filled with His love.

It is a wonderful expression of love to pray for one another. HOwever those who have departed this world are left to the judgement of God not the Judgement of us. We are to pray to God. Those we ask to pray for us are to pray to God. There is no warrant for any other prayer other than to God. There is no scriptura; indicator that those who are in heaven pray for us. In Revelations there is an instance where the prayers of the saints are brought to God by his angels. HIs Angels are his tools he uses to do many things. The prayers of the saints are the prayers of those on earth. The New Testament calls the Elect Saints many times. Those in heaven are beholding the beutific vision and are with God. He doesn't need them to accomplish what he wishes.

Her sinlessness was by grace.. as the angel called her, "FULL of grace". The Greek word for "full" here, means completely full - there was literally no room for sin in her, she was so filled with God's grace! she was saved by God at the moment of her conception..

Actually the meaning of that word is highly debated. Most believe it means favored one. Some believe it means full of grace. Some believe it means full of gracefullness.

I believe the word is rooted in very ancient greek and brings to the ancient Greek mind the graces of ancient greek lore. So it means to be filled with that which the graces have, grace as in Charm, beauty, nature..certainly not the type of grace as expounded by Paul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charites

why do you believe this?

Here is a link on Federal Headship: http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/federal-headship

Basically, Adam was the federal head of sin and death as those traits are imputed to his seed. Christ is the federal head of righteousness as his righteousness is imputed to the Elect by grace.

the EO also believe that Mary was without sin, and the reason they don't believe in the IC is because they don't see original sin like we do. But they'd agree that Mary was sinless. So you have the two oldest forms of Christianity saying that Mary was sinless.. how can it be that it took 1500 years for someone to understand the Scriptures correctly? Actually, do you know that Luther venerated Mary too? It was only later in the reformation that the idea of the Immaculate Conception was disagreed with.. the idea of Mary being sinless comes from the early Church, and she was venerated in the early Church. It seems that it's the Protestant understanding that's the invention here, not the traditional understanding..

Actually, the scriptures warn time and again about error and even state clearly that error had already come into the church. The scriptures even tell us to listen to the apostles. The only way to listen to the apostles directly is to read the scriptures. So it is the New Testament that makes the Church apostolic. Not men posing to be what they can never attain.

The bible says all have sinned. So all have sinned. We know the only exeption to that rule is Christ because he is the son of God and therefore is without original sin and he conquered temptation and never sinned. He died willingly on the cross for us. We know that he did it willingly because he couldn't have died unless he either sinned or took on sin in order to get the punishment of death.

even if it's true that sin comes from fathers, not mothers, it would still have dishonoured Christ to be inside the womb of a sinful woman. Every sin hurts God, dishonours Him, and separates us from Him. The respect we give to Jesus' Mother, goes to Him, because it was for His sake that she was made pure..

We respect Christ's mother and call her blessed because she is Christ's mother, not because she never sinned or did anything wrong. She is only blessed because she was given the honor to mother Christ. She had to be redeemed as well and was born into the sin of adam. If it were not so or if it were important the bible would have told us plainly as it says that all scripture is inspired by God so that man may be complete. If you need to know it spiritually it's in the bible.

in the language, they used the same word for "many" and "all". The Bible was written for humanity in general, it's a message from God... everyone who reads the Bible is a sinner. It does not mean that God chose one person out of the rest to be sinless, for His glory.

Christ had to be sinless in order to be a perfect sacrifice to satisfy the law of God.

let's say you went to Heaven, would you forget all your loved ones on earth? wouldn't you pray to God for them?

No one knows what they will do in heaven. The scriptures even tell us that no one eye has seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him. I do know that God needs nothing from anyone. He is pleased to use those on earth.

are you saying that Mary might have went to hell?

Only if God judged it necessary. I highly doubt she went to hell or the bible wouldn't have said all generations will call her blessed. But we cannot judge ANYONE. Not even her. But I don't think she went to hell. I like everyone else feel that she of all people was an elect.

oki, do you think that those who believe in it are damned and will go to hell for idolatry?

It depends on if they know what they are doing or not and if they knowingly teach others error or not. BUt in the end it depends on the judgment of Christ.

yet..it is not idolatry to want to come closer to Christ.... if I told you - the Bible leads us closer to God, so let's all read the Bible.. would you call this idolatry? why not?

The bible is God's inspired word that's entire purpose is to preserve and deliver the infallible word of God. There is no idea that will undermine God and the words he speaks.

Isn't it just like saying, Mary leads us closer to God, so let's be devoted to Mary? what is wrong with having something that would lead us closer to God?

Actually all anyone knows of Mary that is true is recorded in the pages of scripture. So it is indeed God speaking through the scriptures that showed you the example of Mary. The devotions to her are just a perversion of that example.

And how can the Mother of God not lead us to God.. when she is so surrendered to His will... she's the opposite of the devil, cause they're both creatures, yet she is humble, and he is proud.. he is afraid of her. We are safe with Mary's protection.

Actually the elect are safe in Christ's protection. No one can take an elect from His hand. There is no other name on earth by which you can be saved.

de Montfort never preached a different gospel or message of salvation. He believed that we're saved by the Cross.

He preached a false unfounded faith in a departed soul. Christ is the one mediator between God and man. He should have preached Christ instead of Mary.

Mary leads us to Christ who saves us.

The Spirit and the witness of the Apostles as recorded in scripture leads you to Christ who saves you.

Yes we have access to Christ's merits, and they're always applied to us in any case, but the thing is that while He is perfect, we are not.. our prayers are not.. what Mary does, according to de Montfort, is she perfects our prayers and works so that we come to Him in a more perfect way AND THEREFORE are more open to His grace.

De Montfort was a heretic. We are all lost in sin and cannot please God. God quickens our souls by grace and brings us to life. The HOLY SPIRIT interceeds for us with sighs too deep for words because we don't know how to pray as we ought. The same Spirit that interceeded for Mary and all the departed when they prayed here on earth post atonement.

Have you ever wondered why some people receive so much grace and others receive so little? This is a mystery.. but if we go to Jesus through Mary, she would help us be more open to His graces, so that we would be able to have greater access to them. We ALWAYS have all of His grace available to us. But many times we are closed to it. The limitation is in US, not in God. By being truly devoted to Mary, we no longer have this limitation.

God predestines an elect that will be saved by his grace alone. Everyone deserves hell and it is amazing grace that he saves anyone at all.

so please don't ask your friends to pray for you anymore cause that's what "praying to Saints" is too.

This is not even close to the same thing. When I ask my friends to pray for me I am simply following the holy words of scripture. If I were to ask a departed person to pray for me I would be following the teachings of men and then imparting faith upon that departed person by prayer in faith that should be reserved for God alone.

I'm sorry but how does this relate?
we believe that works come from faith too... it still remains that we need BOTH works AND faith to be saved. Cause if we ONLY have faith, then that faith is dead and can't save us. So that's where works come in.

True good works are only the result of saving faith. If one does truely good works then one is saved. It's hermeneutics. You work because you are saved, not you are saved because you work... If you read the scripture in that light it all just jumps out at you.

Like any, "blessed is he who does" ...etc that you find in scripture.

It means he is blessed to do this, because God has made him do this when you see him doing this it is because God blessed him with this work through grace. NOt because he has earned blessing by the work....you see?

do you believe that we don't cooperate with God's grace, but that He forces it on us? But then why and how do some people go to hell? Does God hate them?

I believe we cannot cooperate with God's saving grace because we are sinners and cannot choose God. He chooses us. People go to hell because of sin. Read Romans chapters 8 and 9.

I believe that the bible as a united whole clearly teaches this:

T - Humans are totally depraved and cannot please God.
U - Election is unconditional. Not based on anything the elect did.
L - Atonement is limited. Only the Elect will be saved.
I - Saving grace is irresistible.
P - The saints will persevere until the end because they are elected by God to salvation.

here's what I don't understand brother.. WHO here is saying that Mary saves us? De Montfort didn't say this either. This is your interpretation of Catholicism. It is incorrect.. I'm sorry. We ALL believe that only Christ saves us. And the point of Mary devotion, is that she leads us closer to her Son, who saves us.

Montfort said that prayers directly to God were presumptuous and arrogant. Which would make it sinful. Which would contradict scripture where we are told by the Lord himself to pray to God. No where in scripture does it give any direction otherwise. It only condemns prayers to anything other than God repeatedly.

It tells us to call upon the Lord. Mary is not the Lord.

why do we spend time with other Christians then, if we could be spending it with God?

Because God wills us to do His will on earth and God made life to live in our world with people in our world.

We are told on scripture not to commune with spirits of the dead. Those on earth are not departed yet.

Christianity was never individualistic.. it's never "just me and God"..

And it's still not. However it is just God who is to be worshiped and prayer is a form of worship. The bible tells us to love one another and pray for one another. It does not say to reach out to the departed. It condemns it. It does not say to pray to anyone other than God. It condemns that as well.

Peace

Probably not in this world.

If you want to keep going can we please shorten this? It is very time consuming and I have a time budget. If you don't I don't mind. Thanks.

Here's a good site about reformed theology: http://www.monergism.com/

I agree with this guy R.C. Sproul: http://www.ligonier.org/

 

[MoNiCa4316]

LOL this guy has the nerve to say that because Christ is the Last Adam, Mary is the new Eve

does he not even realize how ridiculous that is?

I mean seriously!

it's not ridiculous. Mary is the new Eve, because just as the old Eve helped bring sin into the world, Mary helped bring salvation (Jesus) into the world.

 

[Musa80]

LOL this guy has the nerve to say that because Christ is the Last Adam, Mary is the new Eve

does he not even realize how ridiculous that is?

I mean seriously!

Yeah, it's almost like he's a Christian or something. That's totally insane. /sarcasm

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There are a great cloud of witnesses who have finished the race. All that we have ever done will be made public to everyone at the judgement. We can learn by the examples of people that served God in the bible. However none of their examples include prayer to anyone other than God. So why would we assume we are free to do such a thing with no scriptural warrant? THe answer is we shouldn't. The commandments are clear. The example Christ gave us is clear. We should only pray to God.

I don't think you are really listening to me... I'm talking about asking them for prayer. Since we're surrounded by them, they're not too far away, by the power of the Holy Spirit they hear us and pray for us to the Father. We're not praying to them in the same way we do to God, cause they don't decide how the prayers will be answered, rather they simply pray for us! like intercessors.

but..WHERE does it say that we should only pray to God? It says we should only worship God. But prayer isn't worship. The old use of the word "prayer", in the way we use it, means "To request". That is all.

Actually the meaning of that word is highly debated. Most believe it means favored one. Some believe it means full of grace. Some believe it means full of gracefullness.

any one of them put her above us, spiritually.

I believe the word is rooted in very ancient greek and brings to the ancient Greek mind the graces of ancient greek lore. So it means to be filled with that which the graces have, grace as in Charm, beauty, nature..certainly not the type of grace as expounded by Paul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charites

I think in the context though it's talking about grace.

Here is a link on Federal Headship: http://www.carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/federal-headship

from CARM? do you know that's actually an ANTI-Catholic site? Therefore I take its theology to be highly suspect.. sorry..

Actually, the scriptures warn time and again about error and even state clearly that error had already come into the church. The scriptures even tell us to listen to the apostles. The only way to listen to the apostles directly is to read the scriptures. So it is the New Testament that makes the Church apostolic. Not men posing to be what they can never attain.

the Apostles have successors.. these successors give us the correct interpretation of the Bible so that we're not lead astray and so that we're not of "one mind". The Bible does not say that the official teaching of the Church contains error, rather than Christians are prone to error. And there are Catholics who have the wrong understanding of doctrines. But the official teachings are true...cause Christ told Peter, the gates of hades will never overcome the Church.. if the whole Church believes a lie, that means the devil won, cause the devil is the father of lies.

The bible says all have sinned. So all have sinned. We know the only exeption to that rule is Christ because he is the son of God and therefore is without original sin and he conquered temptation and never sinned. He died willingly on the cross for us. We know that he did it willingly because he couldn't have died unless he either sinned or took on sin in order to get the punishment of death.

so..it says "all have sinned" but Christ is an exception, even though it says "all"...? Mary is another such exception

We respect Christ's mother and call her blessed because she is Christ's mother, not because she never sinned or did anything wrong. She is only blessed because she was given the honor to mother Christ. She had to be redeemed as well and was born into the sin of adam. If it were not so or if it were important the bible would have told us plainly as it says that all scripture is inspired by God so that man may be complete. If you need to know it spiritually it's in the bible.

actually as I said before, we believe that Mary WAS SAVED by God, it just happened earlier than for the rest of us.. while we get saved at baptism, she got saved at her conception. She is Christ's Mother because she is blessed, because God saved her in this way and gave her the grace to not sin. No one thinks that she didn't need to be redeemed. She was redeemed by Christ's sacrifice too. It just got applied to her at her conception.

Christ had to be sinless in order to be a perfect sacrifice to satisfy the law of God.

and Mary was sinless so that Christ would not be dishonoured..it's for His sake.

No one knows what they will do in heaven. The scriptures even tell us that no one eye has seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him. I do know that God needs nothing from anyone. He is pleased to use those on earth.

in Heaven, we continue serving and loving God and doing HIs will. If His people are suffering here on earth, it's very logical that those in Heaven would pray for us.

How do you explain all the miracles that happen by Saints' intercession?

Only if God judged it necessary. I highly doubt she went to hell or the bible wouldn't have said all generations will call her blessed. But we cannot judge ANYONE. Not even her. But I don't think she went to hell. I like everyone else feel that she of all people was an elect.

I think there can't even be any doubt that she went to Heaven. She is His Mother!!

It depends on if they know what they are doing or not and if they knowingly teach others error or not. BUt in the end it depends on the judgment of Christ.

oki......

The bible is God's inspired word that's entire purpose is to preserve and deliver the infallible word of God. There is no idea that will undermine God and the words he speaks.

but how do we interpret the Bible? as you can see there are many thousands of denominations out there.. how do we know who is right. Clearly this shows the Bible doesn't interpret itself. And btw, they all claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit!

why do you think in the BIble it says that the CHURCH is the "pillar and foundation of all truth"? why doesn't it say that Scripture is.. because the Church interprets Scripture! There was only one Church back then, there is only one Church now.

Actually all anyone knows of Mary that is true is recorded in the pages of scripture. So it is indeed God speaking through the scriptures that showed you the example of Mary. The devotions to her are just a perversion of that example.

everything that I as a Catholic believe about Mary can be found in Scripture.

Actually the elect are safe in Christ's protection. No one can take an elect from His hand. There is no other name on earth by which you can be saved.

you talk as if there is a competition between Christ and Mary! that is puzzling to me..

He preached a false unfounded faith in a departed soul. Christ is the one mediator between God and man. He should have preached Christ instead of Mary.

He preached Christ the whole time. When we honour Mary, we honour and glorify God. De Montfort understood this.

The Spirit and the witness of the Apostles as recorded in scripture leads you to Christ who saves you.

Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. They are not in competition.

De Montfort was a heretic.

You keep on saying that he is a heretic...yet "heretic" means he went against Church teaching. That's the official definition. He didn't go against Church teaching. The Church supports his view.

We are all lost in sin and cannot please God. God quickens our souls by grace and brings us to life. The HOLY SPIRIT interceeds for us with sighs too deep for words because we don't know how to pray as we ought. The same Spirit that interceeded for Mary and all the departed when they prayed here on earth post atonement.

we also intercede for one another, and that's one of the ways the Holy Spirit *acts in this world*.. He uses people, He doesn't work in isolation! Mary intercedes for us by the HOly Spirit.. we intercede for each other by the Holy Spirit.

God predestines an elect that will be saved by his grace alone. Everyone deserves hell and it is amazing grace that he saves anyone at all.

so how does He choose people? why doesn't He choose all? does He hate them?

This is not even close to the same thing. When I ask my friends to pray for me I am simply following the holy words of scripture. If I were to ask a departed person to pray for me I would be following the teachings of men and then imparting faith upon that departed person by prayer in faith that should be reserved for God alone.

there is no difference.. those in Heaven are alive just like we are alive. They are even more alive. Christ conquered death!

True good works are only the result of saving faith. If one does truely good works then one is saved. It's hermeneutics. You work because you are saved, not you are saved because you work... If you read the scripture in that light it all just jumps out at you.

NO ONE is saying that we're saved because we work! Please don't twist my words.. maybe you think that Catholics think we can earn our salvation, but no we don't think so.. please understand our teachings first..sorry.

Like any, "blessed is he who does" ...etc that you find in scripture.

Mary was told she is blessed among women.. she is more blessed than any woman. She is not blessed like we are, but in a special unique way. No one else will ever give birth to the Son of God.

It means he is blessed to do this, because God has made him do this when you see him doing this it is because God blessed him with this work through grace. NOt because he has earned blessing by the work....you see?

who says anyone earned anything with their work?

I believe we cannot cooperate with God's saving grace because we are sinners and cannot choose God. He chooses us. People go to hell because of sin. Read Romans chapters 8 and 9.

but once we're baptized we're born again, so we CAN cooperate! Do you believe there is no free will?

I believe that the bible as a united whole clearly teaches this:

T - Humans are totally depraved and cannot please God.
U - Election is unconditional. Not based on anything the elect did.
L - Atonement is limited. Only the Elect will be saved.
I - Saving grace is irresistible.
P - The saints will persevere until the end because they are elected by God to salvation.

I don't believe in Calvinism..
the Bible says God is love.. God who is love will not choose to save some people and choose to damn the rest. He wants ALL to be saved
I believe in the Atonement that was for all, not limited...

Montfort said that prayers directly to God were presumptuous and arrogant. Which would make it sinful. Which would contradict scripture where we are told by the Lord himself to pray to God. No where in scripture does it give any direction otherwise. It only condemns prayers to anything other than God repeatedly.

I think you are twisting his words around.. his language is often mystical and you gotta read the whole book to understand it. I'm still reading it and with every chapter, there's something new. You gotta look at everything he said in context with other things he said.

It tells us to call upon the Lord. Mary is not the Lord.

there is no competition between Jesus and Mary.. we DO call upon the Lord..

Because God wills us to do His will on earth and God made life to live in our world with people in our world.

We are told on scripture not to commune with spirits of the dead. Those on earth are not departed yet.

actually, what it says is not to ask the dead for information or about the future. No one does this. We don't practice necromancy. We don't try to contact anyone. We don't expect them to talk to us. We just ask them to pray, and the reason they hear is because we're all one Body in Christ, the Holy Spirit unites us all, they hear us by the Holy Spirit =)

And it's still not. However it is just God who is to be worshiped and prayer is a form of worship. The bible tells us to love one another and pray for one another. It does not say to reach out to the departed. It condemns it. It does not say to pray to anyone other than God. It condemns that as well.

where did you get the idea that prayer=worship?

do you think that all the Christians for 1500+ were wrong then?

Probably not in this world.

If you want to keep going can we please shorten this? It is very time consuming and I have a time budget. If you don't I don't mind. Thanks.

Here's a good site about reformed theology: http://www.monergism.com/

I agree with this guy R.C. Sproul: http://www.ligonier.org/

I used to be Protestant brother I'll take a look though. I know that nothing can convince me to be a Protestant again, sorry..

nice talking with you.

God bless.

 

[DD2008]

I don't think you are really listening to me....

That's funny. I made a thread about that.

Here is the "not listening excuse" thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7347649

Here is the "is this idolatry" thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7347035

Everything being rehashed in your posts is in there.

See you around.

Unsubscribing....again.

 

[MamaZ]

the services you're talking about, that's just a way that we can honour Mary TOGETHER, in community it brings believers together. So if there was a procession of people that went to the graveyard and all together put flowers of the grave of a famous person, that's essentially the same thing.

Believers in who? Mary? How is it the same thing? We see the procession line at a funeral. All Go to say their final good byes.. What we don't see is someone taking up the person or their stone and parade around town to get a gathering together in honor of them again and again and again.. Nor do we see anyone going and dressing up the headstone in many different costumes.. So I don't really see where this is the same.

 

[MamaZ]

DD, why would you ask your friend to pray for you but not the Mother of God? Aren't her prayers better than those of your friends, since she's in Heaven and "the prayers of a righteous man avail much"?

Well number one Mary is not the Mother of God. She is the earthly mother of Christ the word made flesh. God the Father has no mother. God the Spirit has not mother.. Christ made flesh is the only one of the God head who had an earthly mother only because God had prepared for Him a Body. So that He may come and do the will of the Father to save mankind.

I just wanted to say.. that the more I focus on Mary, the easier I find to focus on Christ. She leads us to Christ. That's her "job", you might say. when we say "Mary", she says "Jesus".
How do you know what she says. LOL. From what I can see in the scriptures is that in Heaven there is nothing but praise unto God. No praying. Mary did not get to heaven any other way than any of us will and that is through the Blood of Christ. Therefore it is not Mary who is righteous but it is Christs righteousness that one prays through and we here on earth can do that all by ourselves for there is no more rightous than the other for only Christ is the righteous one..

Do you believe that we as creatures can bring God glory?

We can only bring God glory If indeed we are washed in the blood of Christ.


That we can glorify Him? So if we call Mary sinless, who does this glorify - her, or God?
Mary.. For we see in scripture that there was only one who was without sin. And that not being Mary.. But Christ. Mary had to go through Christ in order to be declared righteous.. For Mary would not be with the Father if not for Christ.

Doesn't it glorify God, who made her sinless, so that His Son would not be dishonoured by being in her womb?
How could this dishonor Jesus by being inside the womb of a sinner? He became sin for us. He took on His sheeps sin.. He touched sinners all the time. The lame the blind the deaf.. He even lounged with sinners laying upon His chest..


You forget brother, everything God did for Mary was for the sake of Christ's glory. She's sinless for His glory. She was taken up into Heaven for His glory. ETC. As we pray.. "Blessed be God in His angels and in His Saints."

Mary was not created sinless tee hee.

also, after looking at Scripture carefully, I found none of the doctrines contradict Scripture.

Sure it does.. We see that the only mediator we need is Christ for He forever lives to intercede on our behalf.. We see that there was only one without sin.. Christ. We see that in the Flesh Mary was His mother but in the Spirit all those born of God are His mother brothers and sisters..



you misunderstand.. Mary only does His will. So if she prays for something, its already in God's will. Of course He would answer any of her prayers then!

Mary does not pray for people. She is now at home and her race is finished. In heaven there is no tears or grief . Those at home with the Lord are not burdened with the worlds care..


I on the other hand, I think St Louis de Montfort's teaching is from Heaven and it's an awesome way to achieve holiness. Actually, at first I doubted them too and feared it's all idolatry. I asked God to show me. By the evening of this day, He did. He changed my mind. That's when I realized that the only reason I understood even a bit of his writings at all is because God gave me the necessary grace to understand them.

I noticed many times when people dismiss the Total Consecration or de Montfort, - that's often because they don't see that Mary leads us perfectly to Christ. She perfects our efforts to love Him. She teaches us how. It is not Mary who leads one to Christ. It is the Father who draws one to Christ. It is the Spirit who leads us into all truth. Not Mary. We do not need a human to be our mediator between us and Jesus..

Also, what de Montfort said has been supported by several Popes and Saints, and is accepted by the Church. His writings were examined in detail before he was canonized as a Saint.

They may have been examined but where they put to the ultimate test and that is do they line up with the full counsel of Gods written scriptures? Men do not cannonize men to be saints.. Being born again makes one a saint.. This is done of the Fathers will and plan and not from mens doing.

Also, the consecration is more accurately to Jesus through Mary, not to Mary herself for her sake. It's not that he thinks we can't pray to God. But that Mary perfects our prayers and applies her merits to them. I think the whole teaching encourages humility.

We do not need Mary to add her merits to our prayers for her merits is not what got her into the heavenlies.. It was Christ.
I pray to Jesus, I also pray to Mary



do you ONLY say this prayer? do you ever pray in your own words? If so, why? Didn't Christ say to use this prayer?

hope you see where I'm going with this.....

Christ gave us this prayer as a model of how to pray to the Father. In the Catholic Church, we use this prayer A LOT, as you probably know. Every time we pray the Rosary, we say it 5 times.

And by saying it 5 times do you believe that God hears you better?


and faith without works is dead.

True Faith has works that follow it. It is evidence that one truly has been born again. We are saved unto good works not saved by Good works..

there's such a thing as works under grace too. Just because we're saved by Christ doesn't mean we do nothing.

See the Church teaches that we're saved by grace alone but not by faith alone. There IS a difference. Because as I said, there are works under grace too, which are not works of the law.

I don't really see how any of this relates to the thread though. how does it relate to Mary or even St Louis de Montfort..?

The test of truth is not by what man says but in what God through His scripture has revealed to those whom believe

 

[Musa80]

Well number one Mary is not the Mother of God.

I'm not going to get into a blow by blow debate here. Frankly it's not worth my time. Just want to point out though, that you don't help your case by dredging up 1600 year old heresies. The Blessed Virgin IS the Mother of God.