The Start of the Tribulation

eclipsenow

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That's right.

The still-unfulfilled 1,260-day time period in the prophecies of Rev. 12:6,14, 11:3,2, 13:5, Dan. 7:25, 12:7 will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Lk. 9:22, 18:33 were 3 literal days.

Errr, want to try that again? Jesus was only dead Friday night to Sunday morning, about 2.5 days or 36 hours. But because we know Jewish number symbolism and how the idea of '3 days' means stretching across the name of 3 days, but not necessarily, strictly, numerically, literally meaning 3 lots of 24 hours, we don't worry that it was only Friday night to Sunday morning, do we?

Jewish numbers are different to modern Western numbers. How many times does this have to be pointed out?
 
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eclipsenow

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But 3 literal days were still involved: Friday, Saturday, & Sunday. So "days" in prophecy can refer to literal days.
SORRY... typo... I'm very tired. I meant 1.5 days. Not 3, just 1.5 literal days. Count the hours from Friday night to Sunday morning. It's only 36 hours! Come on, Friday night to Saturday night is one day, and then the next morning gives us an extra half a day. That's 1.5 days LITERALLY!

You can only get figurative days if you do figurative things like count the NAMES, not the NUMBERS! You just counted the NAMES and proved my point for me. If you count the number of hours or actual full on 24 hour days, it's FAIL! FAIL! FAIL!

But if you see the Jewish expression used in the sense of spanning across a period of time involving the names of 3 days, then it makes sense. It's not literal at all, it's figurative!
 
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Ludwig van Beethoven

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SORRY... typo... I'm very tired. I meant 1.5 days. Not 3, just 1.5 literal days. Count the hours from Friday night to Sunday morning. It's only 36 hours! Come on, Friday night to Saturday night is one day, and then the next morning gives us an extra half a day. That's 1.5 days LITERALLY!

You can only get figurative days if you do figurative things like count the NAMES, not the NUMBERS! You just counted the NAMES and proved my point for me. If you count the number of hours or actual full on 24 hour days, it's FAIL! FAIL! FAIL!

But if you see the Jewish expression used in the sense of spanning across a period of time involving the names of 3 days, then it makes sense. It's not literal at all, it's figurative!

What makes you think He was crucified Friday night, exactly? I don't see that written anywhere in the Bible. We don't know for sure what year or day of the week it was. But here's one way to to guess:

We know the scripture said he would be in the tomb for 3 days, and we know He was resurrected on Sunday, not because of Easter Sunday, but because the Feast of First Fruits always falls on the first day of the week after Passover, during Unleavened Bread. So let's count backwards:

Sunday Morning - 0 days
Saturday Morning - 1 day
Friday Morning - 2 days
Thursday Morning - 3 days

Remember that Hebrew days begin and end at sundown.

This would put the crucifixion this way:

Tuesday Evening / Passover - Last Supper / Prayer at the garden of Gethsemane / Jesus Arrested
Wednesday Morning / Passover - Jesus Tried and crucified, from about the 6th hour to the 9th hour

Wednesday Evening / Unleavened Bread day 1 - Jesus body taken down and buried.

Thursday Evening - 1 day
Friday Evening - 2 days
Saturday Evening - 3 days

Sunday morning the tomb was found empty.

This line-up of the days of the week occurs in the year 30 A.D.

An interesting point to note is the Jesus ate the Passover meal on Tuesday Evening, the correct day, but then the Jewish Leaders said they wanted to hurry with Jesus' burial because it was time to celebrate the Passover, on the wrong day.

-LvB-
 
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eclipsenow

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Rev. 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief,...keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

I see the part as to keeping your garments meaning that you had better not die. You would naked if you die. Your skin is what is keeping "they" from seeing your shame. Lose it and you will be lost and join the unsaved in the grave. Why? Because the church put on her new clothes earlier/as the wife, and there was only one resurrection of the just. There was only one resurrection to life.

I see this warning in Rev. 16:15 as the people will have to hang on till even one more round of the seven full vials comes down.

16:17 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial..."
v19 "...Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup...of his wrath."

Now, will come the seven last plagues.

Rev. 21:9 "And there came unto me one of the seven angels, which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues...talked with me..."

John referred to the angel in this manner, because the last job the angels did before this point - was they were seen to pour out the seven last plagues.
I'll decline to read anything you write in that particularly radioactive colour as it actually hurts my eyes.
 
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vinsight4u said in post 286:

This set of 144,000 did not go heaven.

There's only one set of 144,000, and they will have gone to heaven by the time of Rev. 14 because Rev. 14:1 refers to Jesus (figuratively "a" Lamb: Rev. 5:6-6:1, 1 Pet. 1:19, Acts 8:32, Isa. 53:7) and the 144,000 standing on the heavenly Mt. Zion (cf. Heb. 12:22), before the throne of God in heaven (Rev. 14:5, Textus Receptus). While Jesus and the 144,000 will all be up there physically by the mid-tribulation time of Rev. 14 (when others in the church will be on the earth and will start dying under the Antichrist: Rev. 14:12-13), everyone in the church is up there already figuratively (Heb. 12:22, Eph. 2:6). For regarding the church as a whole, Heb 12:22 and Eph. 2:6 can refer figuratively to salvation under the New Covenant (Gal. 4:24-26, Heb. 12:22,24).

The 144,000 will be Christians (Rev. 14:1,4), and so they will be part of the church (cf. Eph. 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Rev. 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Num. 18:12). They will be male virgins (Rev. 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Rev. 7:3, cf. Rom. 6:22, Phil. 1:1), by the time of Rev. 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thes. 2:1-8, Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews & Gentiles in the church, for all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Rom. 11:1, Acts 4:36), & all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29), & so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezek. 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:9,12). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray & ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, & he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Mt. 21:22), without any wavering (cf. Jas. 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Rev. 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Num. 1:32, Ps. 78:67, Ezek. 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes which include Dan (Gen. 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Rom. 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Rom. 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Rom. 9:24).
 
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vinsight4u said in post 295:

Daniel 11:21 is when a vile person stands up, but there is a huge war before that time. So it is about him confirming the covenant that ends the war time a bit before Daniel 11:21?

That could be right, insofar as the Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible future war of Rev. 6:4-8 and Dan. 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the vile person of Dan. 11:21-45.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army (for the U.S. and Israel) for an all-out ground invasion of Iran (to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime). As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, the CIA and the Mossad could help the Baathists (who see non-Arab Iran as an enemy of Arab autonomy) to take back complete control of Iraq via a coup d'etat.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians", and the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple. This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending they're doing so "in the name of Islam") turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating it (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat Egypt (Dan. 11:15). For even though there's been some ostensible change in Egypt, the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army remains in ultimate control, so that the Baathists could see the Egyptian regime as still being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isa. 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Rev. 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Rev. 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the "religious fundamentalism" of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Tim. 3:16, Mt. 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Gal. 1:8-9, Jn. 14:6, 3:36, Acts 4:12).
 
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vinsight4u said in post 297:

Daniel 11:13 "...after certain years..." v16 "...shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed."
So is this king of the north going to be the final transgressor, so later the vile person can rise as the king of fierce countenance/the little horn?

Possibly, for after an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Dan. 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezek. 28:2, cf. 2 Thes. 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The 1st thing the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Dan. 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a very small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish Messiah (Dan. 9:26a, 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Dan. 9:26a, 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Rev. 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Dan. 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Rev. 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Dan. 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the peace treaty, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism & start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Rev. 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15, 2 Thes. 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Rev. 12:9) for 3.5 years (Rev. 13:4-18, Dan. 7:25, 12:7, Rev. 12:14), or 1,260 days (Rev. 12:6). The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Mt. 24:30, Rev. 19:11-21, 1 Thes. 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, 11:31, Mt. 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Rev. 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thes. 2:8), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Rev. 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech. 14:8-21).
 
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