The Start of the Tribulation

TKICBS

TKICBS
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These verses all hinge on when will the abomination be set up? Daniel 9:26,27 tells us that a prince will come out of the Roman Empire and make a 7 year covenant. Then in the midst (not to be confused with the word middle) of this 7 years the sacrifice and oblation is caused to cease. Daniel 8:13-17 tells us that there will be 2300 days from the time the covenant is signed to the time the abomination is set up.
The covenant was confirmed on Jan 1st, 2007 and 2300 days ends on April 17th this year, 2013. The desolation will last until Jesus returns. The abomination should be an idol and all things concidered is likely a statue of Mary set up in the temple courtyard, where it ought not be. This will remain until the wicked one sits in the temple to show himself he is God. He will remove the idol.
It is likely the masons who will rebuild the temple after the Israelis are removed in fulfillment of Luke 21. It won't be built until after the abomination is set up.
 
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Bethwhite

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These verses all hinge on when will the abomination be set up? Daniel 9:26,27 tells us that a prince will come out of the Roman Empire and make a 7 year covenant.

With respect, Daniel 9 does not say a prince will come out of the Roman empire and make a 7 year covenant.

The only "prince" in Daniel 9 is Jesus. It was Jesus/God who sent the armies to desolate Israel because of their sins:

Matt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city

There is no "7 year covenant" mentioned in Daniel 9. It specifically says:

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

THE covenant that HE (Jesus) confirms with many of Israel during the final week of years is the New Covenant. Jesus confirmed the New Covenant with many of Israel during his 3 1/2 year ministry. He will confirm the New Covenant with many of Israel during the final 3 1/2 years.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



Then in the midst (not to be confused with the word middle) of this 7 years the sacrifice and oblation is caused to cease.
The sacrifice and oblation ceased with the death of Jesus in the middle of the 70th week when Jesus was "cut off".

Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
 
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TKICBS

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Re Bethwhite:
Here is the prince of the roman Empire:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he (speaking of the prince who shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This is not Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah that was cut off. The prince that shall come is of the people who detroyed the city and the sanctuary. This was not the Jews that destroyed the city and sanctuary, it was the Roman soldiers at the time of Titus in 70 AD. So the prince of the people has to be the prince of the Roman empire. Is this not true?
 
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Bethwhite

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Re Bethwhite:
Here is the prince of the roman Empire:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he (speaking of the prince who shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The angel already told us who the prince is: Messiah the Prince, who is Jesus. The angel was describing when Messiah the Prince was to come (after the 69th week, for the 70th week). "The Prince who is to come" is Messiah the Prince who is to come after the 69th week. It was God/Jesus who sent the armies (Matt 22:7) to desolate Israel until the consummation (the time of the end).

There is no place for an antichrist figure in Daniel 9. It is through Jesus, through THE New Covenant that Israel and Jerusalem "... finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (Jesus) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (Jesus) be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (JESUS - Matt 22:7) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he (JESUS) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (JESUS) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (JESUS) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Israel).




This is not Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah that was cut off. The prince that shall come is of the people who detroyed the city and the sanctuary. This was not the Jews that destroyed the city and sanctuary, it was the Roman soldiers at the time of Titus in 70 AD. So the prince of the people has to be the prince of the Roman empire. Is this not true?
God used the Roman armies to desolate Israel (Matt 22:7). He did it because of Israel's sins, as described throughout the prophets, and Israel's rejection of Jesus.

Isaiah 47:“Sit in silence, go into darkness,
Daughter of the Babylonians;
no more will you be called
queen of kingdoms.
6 I was angry with my people
and desecrated my inheritance;
I gave them into your hand,
and you showed them no mercy.
Even on the aged
you laid a very heavy yoke.


The Romans are "the daughter of the Babylonians" into whose hand God gave his people because of His anger against them.
 
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TKICBS

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A week in this verse is 7 years. Each day is a year. Just as in Genesis when Laban made Jacob wait a week for Rachel and then it says he completed the 7 years. This can also be proved by doing the math for the time between the giving of this command to rebuild in Neamiah, until the time that Jesus was cut off.

In 1895, Sir Robert Anderson, a gifted biblical scholar and the head of Scotland Yard, wrote a fascinating review of Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. In his masterful work, The Coming Prince, Anderson proved that the portion of Daniel's prophecy that begins with, "From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build tJerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shal be seven weeks [sevens], and threescore and two weeks [sevens]" was fulfilled to the exact day483 biblical years 9each year equalling 360 days) after it commenced.
We can therefore expect that the final week will also be 7 years safely.
 
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Bethwhite

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A week in this verse is 7 years. Each day is a year. Just as in Genesis when Laban made Jacob wait a week for Rachel and then it says he completed the 7 years. This can also be proved by doing the math for the time between the giving of this command to rebuild in Neamiah, until the time that Jesus was cut off.

In 1895, Sir Robert Anderson, a gifted biblical scholar and the head of Scotland Yard, wrote a fascinating review of Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. In his masterful work, The Coming Prince, Anderson proved that the portion of Daniel's prophecy that begins with, "From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build tJerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shal be seven weeks [sevens], and threescore and two weeks [sevens]" was fulfilled to the exact day483 biblical years 9each year equalling 360 days) after it commenced.
We can therefore expect that the final week will also be 7 years safely.

Yes, the final week of years is indeed seven years.

3 1/2 of the final week of years when the New Covenant was confirmed by Jesus with many of Israel was completed before Jesus was "cut off", during his ministry.

The final 3 1/2 years when the New Covenant will again be confirmed by Jesus with many of Israel is described in Revelation where 144,000 of Israel are sealed in Rev 7, where the woman is protected and fed for 42 months in Rev12.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


There is a 2000 year gap in the 70th week to allow the gentiles to be grafted in.

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


After the final 3 1/2 years of the 490 years, Jesus and the New Covenant that HE confirmed with many of Israel will do this:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Nothing in Daniel 9 has anything to do with the antichrist or the devil. It's all about Israel, Jerusalem, the Temple, the New Covenant and Jesus!
 
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TKICBS

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To consider the former vision does not mean the prince is the little horn. The little horn is not called a prince. He is called a king just as all horns are kings. It is the covenant that is related to the former vision.

What you are saying does not make sense. Then Jesus will make a 7 year covenant and the jews will transgress that covenant in the midst of it and he, Jesus will take away the sacrifice and oblation and he Jesus, will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Can't you see that this makes no sense?

We already have a 7 year covenant confirmed by a prince of the former Roman Empire. This prohecy only makes sense if the prince is a modern day leader in the govenment that ruled Israel at the time of the destruction. This is Jovier Solana. Watch April 17th and you will see.
 
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Bethwhite

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To consider the former vision does not mean the prince is the little horn. The little horn is not called a prince. He is called a king just as all horns are kings. It is the covenant that is related to the former vision.

What you are saying does not make sense. Then Jesus will make a 7 year covenant and the jews will transgress that covenant in the midst of it and he, Jesus will take away the sacrifice and oblation and he Jesus, will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

Can't you see that this makes no sense?

We already have a 7 year covenant confirmed by a prince of the former Roman Empire. This prohecy only makes sense if the prince is a modern day leader in the govenment that ruled Israel at the time of the destruction. This is Jovier Solana. Watch April 17th and you will see.


No, what you're missing is that you keep saying "7 year covenant".

It doesn't say "7 year covenant". That is rearranging the words, changing what it says, altering the meaning.



It says:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"

There is no "7 year covenant".

The New Covenant is confirmed with many of Israel by Jesus during the final week of years.

The New Covenant is not a "7 year covenant". Jesus takes the final week of years and confirms the New Covenant with many of Israel.

He did it during his 3 1/2 year ministry before he was cut off and he will do it during the final 42 months, as described in Revelation 12.

Jesus was cut off in the midst of the final week, ending sacrifices by his ultimate sacrifice, and allowing the gentiles to come in.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


There is a 2000 year gap in the 70th week to allow the gentiles to be grafted in.

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 
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Bethwhite

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It is by the New Covenant that these things get done:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus confirms the New Covenant with many of Israel both during his ministry and in the future, when Israel is sealed an protected and fed for 42 months. (Rev 12)

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
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Bethwhite

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The prince was in the determined time of Daniel 9:26. That time came and is over.
The "he" is in the determined time of verse 27. This is the king that will be the little horn.

Yes, Jesus came 2000 years ago.

The latter half of the 70th week is not complete yet and won't be complete until Jesus confirms the New Covenant with many of Israel during the final 3 1/2 years, as prophesied.

It is through Jesus' confirmation of the New Covenant with Israel during the final 3 1/2 years that these things are accomplished:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus confirms the New Covenant with many of Israel both during his ministry and in the future, when Israel is sealed an protected and fed for 42 months. (Rev 12)

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
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eclipsenow

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These verses all hinge on when will the abomination be set up? Daniel 9:26,27 tells us that a prince will come out of the Roman Empire and make a 7 year covenant. Then in the midst (not to be confused with the word middle) of this 7 years the sacrifice and oblation is caused to cease. Daniel 8:13-17 tells us that there will be 2300 days from the time the covenant is signed to the time the abomination is set up.
The covenant was confirmed on Jan 1st, 2007 and 2300 days ends on April 17th this year, 2013. The desolation will last until Jesus returns. The abomination should be an idol and all things concidered is likely a statue of Mary set up in the temple courtyard, where it ought not be. This will remain until the wicked one sits in the temple to show himself he is God. He will remove the idol.
It is likely the masons who will rebuild the temple after the Israelis are removed in fulfillment of Luke 21. It won't be built until after the abomination is set up.

Daniel has 2 AoD's in mind:
  • Antiochus Epiphanes in the later chapters (which was so clear some historians - since around 300AD - have tried to claim Daniel was written after the events of the Greek empire and Antoichus the mad).
  • Titus at the end of Chapter 9, which is clearly related to the death of Jesus and the abolishing of the sacrificial system for all time.
I see no need for any AoD in the future. The theme is so burnt into Israel's consciousness that it is used as a metaphor for evil personified in 2 Thess 2.
 
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TKICBS said in post 243:

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Regarding Dan. 9:26, its original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Gen. 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah (Jesus) made the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, Heb. 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the fulfillment of the covenant in Dan. 9:27 & the league in Dan. 11:23, with a future ultra-Orthodox Jewish (false) Messiah in Jerusalem, after he & his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Dan. 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Dan. 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", i.e. peace-treatied.

TKICBS said in post 243:

Dan 9:27 And he (speaking of the prince who shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Regarding Dan. 9:27, it's "covenant" refers to a future peace treaty which the Antichrist will "cut" with a false, ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (Dan. 9:26a) in Jerusalem, after the Antichrist has defeated this Messiah & his followers (Dan. 11:22-23a).

This treaty will allow this false Messiah & his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after destroying the Muslim structures there), & to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Dan. 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Rev. 11:2a) to the Muslims so the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount & resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Dan. 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Dan. 9:27) nations gathered at the U.N. General Assembly, & "confirm" (Dan. 9:27) that for at least 7 years he'll keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

Dan. 9:27's "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Dan. 9:26a,27a/11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31, Mt. 24:15), & then sit himself in the temple & proclaim himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9, 2 Thes. 2:9).

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TKICBS said in post 234:

If the Catholic Church is Babylon the Great, which is easy to prove, then it with its other 6 mainline religion that have recently joined it, are the 7 heads of Rev 12 and 13.

Regarding "If the Catholic Church is Babylon the Great", while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (and of other churches) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Rev. chs. 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only place where people buy merchandise (Rev. 18:11). Nor is the RCC the place where all martyrs have been killed (Rev. 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Rev. 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Rev. 17:7,9-10).

Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Rev. chs. 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Rev. 17:18), economic (Rev. 18:11), and religious (Rev. 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Rev. 18:3), and throughout history (Rev. 17:9-10).

TKICBS said in post 234:

Now look at Rev where we see that the beast, The EU, hates the harlot and destroys Babylon in one hour.

Regarding "destroys Babylon in one hour", the ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Rev. 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Rev. 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Rev. 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Rev. 16:17) of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:2-20:6, Mt. 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isa. 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his ten kings something like: "Our great battle against the tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Rev. 16:14, 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up our great cities, our magnificent systems. Let us break our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back into our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isa. 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a total lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: Jn. 10:30, Zech. 14:3-4) will completely defeat the armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Rev. 16:14, 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent millennium (Rev. 20:1-6, Isa. 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezek. 36:35, Isa. 51:3). And after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Rev. 21:1). And then God will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Rev. 21:2-4).

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TKICBS said in post 237:

Many teach that the 2 horned beast of Rev 13 is the anti christ and the false prophet. I can't help but wonder where they get these ideas. If the 10 horns are kings then does it not stand to reason that the 2 horns are kings?

Regarding "the 2 horned beast of Rev 13" (verses 11-16), it represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the RCC, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Rev. 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Rev. 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Rev. 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus. (But he won't say he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ and will deny Christ is in the flesh: 1 Jn. 2:22, 2 Jn. 1:7.)

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TKICBS said in post 229:

For example there is a bottomless pit somewhere that is closed but that will be opened when a star hits the earth.

Regarding "there is a bottomless pit somewhere", Job 33:22's original Hebrew word (shachath, H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit that's in hell/sheol (Isa. 14:15, Ps. 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isa. 14:15,9,10, Ezek. 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Ps. 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy, H8482) parts of the earth (Ezek. 32:18-32, Ps. 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' second coming (Rev. 20:1-3, Isa. 14:15,12).

TKICBS said in post 229:

Hell is the body of the disobedient that have gone before us plus those that go into hell in the future who will join them there until judgement day.

Regarding "hell", there are two literal hells, one temporary & one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Lk. 16:23) & Sheol in Hebrew (Ps. 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, & where they're punished by flame (Lk. 16:23-24). Before Jesus' 1st coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Lk. 16:25). After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross & rising from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Cor. 15:1-4), he went to Hades & preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Pet. 3:19, 4:6) & then drew the souls of obedient believers there up with him when he ascended into heaven (Eph. 4:8-9, Heb. 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8, Rev. 6:9-11).

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he'll bring with him from heaven all the souls of obedient believers who died (1 Thes. 4:14), & their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thes. 4:16, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,52-53). They'll then reign on the earth with Jesus for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). After the thousand years & subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-10), all unsaved people of all times will be resurrected out of Hades & judged (Rev. 20:12-13) & cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15, 21:8), where they'll be punished with Satan & his fallen angels in fire & brimstone forever (Mt. 25:41,46, Rev. 20:10,15, 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Lk. 12:5, Mk. 9:45-46) & Tophet in Hebrew (Isa. 30:33).

Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kin. 23:10) just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Josh. 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside the wall of New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:15, 21:8) on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal punishment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isa. 66:24, Mk. 9:46, Mt. 25:41,46, Rev. 20:10,15, 14:10-11).
 
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vinsight4u said in post 244:

The same "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the little horn of Daniel chapter 8.

That's right.

Dan. 8's ram represented the ancient empire of the Medes & Persians (Dan. 8:20). The goat represented the ancient empire of the Greeks, beginning with Alexander the Great (Dan. 8:21). After he died, his empire was broken up into four Diadochian Greek kingdoms (Dan. 8:22).

The Antichrist will come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one these four Diadochian Greek kingdoms. For whereas Antiochus IV could have fulfilled Dan. 8:9,23-25 typically, the Antichrist will fulfill it antitypically. The Antichrist will fulfill Dan. 8:24a because he will be mighty but not by his own power (Rev. 13:4, 2 Thes. 2:9). He will fulfill Dan. 8:24b because he will prosper & will physically destroy the holy people, the church (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13). He will fulfill Dan. 8:25a because he will magnify himself (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). And he will fulfill Dan. 8:25b because he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Rev. 19:19) & will be broken without hand (Rev. 19:20).
 
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Ludwig van Beethoven

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UPDATE:

According to Daniel's Timeline, the Altar will be shut down 30 days before the Abomination is set up. This is due to the fact that the bible gives 3 different day counts.

1260 or 42 months - The beast will reign for this long, and the two witnesses speak for this long as well

1290 days - This is the length of the tribulation

1335 days - This is the blessed day, according to the Lord's words "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to One Thousand Three Hundred Thirty-Five days."

Altar Shut down - 30 days - Abomination - 1260 days - 45 days immediately after tribulation, during which the Fall Feasts occur.

However, in order for the abomination to be March 22 (following the rules of the timeline) the altar would have to be shut down February 20. I'm not saying that it can't happen, I'm just saying it is looking less and less likely. Here's why:

The bible says that someone would cause the daily sacrifices to cease, so they must first be started. In order to start them, the altar has to be set up. And that seems impossible now. The altar has to be dedicated for 7 days before it can be used as an altar to God. It is only 5 days until February 20. I don't see how they can set it up in time.

Personally, I always wondered about the calculation of March 22, 2013. That would put the Lord's return in fall of 2016. The only problem with that is the 70 weeks/years of Daniel's prophecy.

"From the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem," that is what the bible says about these 70 weeks/years.

The command went forth November 29, 1947. 70 years later brings us to 2017, not 2016.

If the Tribulation does not begin this year then we will have to keep watching. It will come, and soon, and we are commanded to watch for such things. If it does not happen this year, remember, it has to start in the Spring. There are many reasons for this. For example:

The beginning of the tribulation has to coincide with Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. Those will likely be the Last Supper, the Fleeing and the Sealing of the 144,000.

The end of the Trib and the return of the Lord has to coincide with Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. Those will probably be The Rapture and Resurrection, Armageddon and The Celebration.

If it happens this year, then may God be with us. If not, God be with us still.

-LvB-
 
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Bethwhite

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UPDATE:

According to Daniel's Timeline, the Altar will be shut down 30 days before the Abomination is set up. This is due to the fact that the bible gives 3 different day counts.

1260 or 42 months - The beast will reign for this long, and the two witnesses speak for this long as well

1290 days - This is the length of the tribulation

1335 days - This is the blessed day, according to the Lord's words "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to One Thousand Three Hundred Thirty-Five days."

Altar Shut down - 30 days - Abomination - 1260 days - 45 days immediately after tribulation, during which the Fall Feasts occur.

However, in order for the abomination to be March 22 (following the rules of the timeline) the altar would have to be shut down February 20. I'm not saying that it can't happen, I'm just saying it is looking less and less likely. Here's why:

The bible says that someone would cause the daily sacrifices to cease, so they must first be started. In order to start them, the altar has to be set up. And that seems impossible now. The altar has to be dedicated for 7 days before it can be used as an altar to God. It is only 5 days until February 20. I don't see how they can set it up in time.

Personally, I always wondered about the calculation of March 22, 2013. That would put the Lord's return in fall of 2016. The only problem with that is the 70 weeks/years of Daniel's prophecy.

"From the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem," that is what the bible says about these 70 weeks/years.

The command went forth November 29, 1947. 70 years later brings us to 2017, not 2016.

If the Tribulation does not begin this year then we will have to keep watching. It will come, and soon, and we are commanded to watch for such things. If it does not happen this year, remember, it has to start in the Spring. There are many reasons for this. For example:

The beginning of the tribulation has to coincide with Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. Those will likely be the Last Supper, the Fleeing and the Sealing of the 144,000.

The end of the Trib and the return of the Lord has to coincide with Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. Those will probably be The Rapture and Resurrection, Armageddon and The Celebration.

If it happens this year, then may God be with us. If not, God be with us still.

-LvB-

I am absolutely loving the fact that so many of God's people see how close we are.

We're almost all in sync. We're arriving at the same conclusions by different means - it's kinda funny.

I agree that the events will begin in the Spring and that Jesus' coming on the clouds with the armies of heaven to destroy the armies of the devil will be in the Fall - Feast of Trumpets/Atonement.

Here's how I know Spring is correct:

Song of Solomon 2:8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.


Joel 1:
5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.
6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the Lord; the priests, the Lord's ministers, mourn.
10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.




Jesus said right up until he appears for us, people will be buying, selling, planting building, marrying, eating and drinking.


Revelation 12 shows that the church will be caught up and dwelling in heaven when the devil is cast down. When the devil is cast down, he send a flood after Israel. That flood is the armies of Ezek 38 and Joel 1 and 2. Joel 1 shows that this flood occurs in the Spring, when the wheat and barley are in the field. Song of Solomon 2 shows the calling away to God of the church is in the Spring, after the Spring rains, when flowers appear on the earth.
 
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Ludwig van Beethoven

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I am absolutely loving the fact that so many of God's people see how close we are.

We're almost all in sync. We're arriving at the same conclusions by different means - it's kinda funny.

I agree that the events will begin in the Spring and that Jesus' coming on the clouds with the armies of heaven to destroy the armies of the devil will be in the Fall - Feast of Trumpets/Atonement.

Here's how I know Spring is correct:

Song of Solomon 2:8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.


Joel 1:
5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.
6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the Lord; the priests, the Lord's ministers, mourn.
10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.




Jesus said right up until he appears for us, people will be buying, selling, planting building, marrying, eating and drinking.


Revelation 12 shows that the church will be caught up and dwelling in heaven when the devil is cast down. When the devil is cast down, he send a flood after Israel. That flood is the armies of Ezek 38 and Joel 1 and 2. Joel 1 shows that this flood occurs in the Spring, when the wheat and barley are in the field. Song of Solomon 2 shows the calling away to God of the church is in the Spring, after the Spring rains, when flowers appear on the earth.

Excellent verses.

Another reason I think it will begin in Early Spring is because of Revelation 14:4

"These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."

Notice that the 144,000 are referred to as "first fruits" which just happens to be one of the Spring Feasts, which occurs right after Passover and during Unleavened Bread. I believe that is the time the 144,000 will be sealed, just before the judgements.

UPDATE:

I have reconsidered my last post concerning the timing of events this year. I said that it seemed unlikely that the abomination of desolation would occur this year because the altar is not set up yet. But God has been known to do amazing things, things that may seem impossible to humans like us. Perhaps He will make a way.

I thought it wouldn't be this year because of the 70 weeks/years spoken of by Daniel. Those 70 weeks/years end in 2017, not 2016. However, I just remembered the verse that says "From the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince (obviously the return of the Lord) there shall be seven weeks, threescore and two weeks." The command went forth in 1947.

1947 - 69 years - 2016

So according to the counting of days and years, there is still a chance that it is this year.

For more information, go to:

Lion and Lamb Ministries | He came first as the Lamb of God, now He comes as the Lion of Judah.

Remember, keep watching for the signs, and be prepared.

-LvB-
 
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