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The Sons of God ?

Oxy2Hydr0

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I decided to continue this on a seperate thread from the "Photo of A Jinn ? " thread. A Christian member, who was formally muslim, said :

Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Bushmaster said:
Jinni is a mythological arabic story that is integrated in this belief system, they existed way before Islam in 1001 night fairy tales. Have you ever seen one? How come?

Lets play look at your self in the mirror.

Demons and Angels are mythological greek stories that is intergrated in Christian belief system, they existed way before Christianity in the belief of Helinism. Have you ever seen one ? How come ?

Further on was commented :

Oxy2Hdr0 said:
Bushmaster said:
It is documented in the Bible as witness stories of Jesus. Disprove Bible then we may have a discussion. I also would like to see some "Helinic" stories...

This has nothing to do with Jesus the Messiah son of Maryam. This has to do with modern Christianity after the son of Maryam. As we believe, Christianity today is alien to that of the Religion Jesus preached and followed.

The Concept of Jinns in Islam is remote from the concept of Jinns in the pre-Islamic era. You are associating our belief with something prior to Islam based on the usage of the same word. So I gave you a taste of you own sickness. We can do the same thing with the Greek word Dameeon ie Demon etc and associated it with Helinism which is pre-christian.

We would like everyone to keep these points in mind. The terms Angel, and Demon are helinistic, just as the arabic word Jinn is pre-islamic, they are not originally part of Biblical ideology.

"Angels came late into Jewish theology, generally from the non-Jewish myths of the East. The early books of the Bible speak of some vague heavenly beings called malochim (singular, malach). Although malach is usually translated angel, its literal meaning is messenger."

- Harry Gersh, The Sacred Books of the Jews

In Both Hebrew and Arabic the words for Angel as understood in our era is malach (He) and Malak (Ar) both words are cognates of each other derived from the same root malaka or malacha. The original meaning of the words is messenger or erand runner. The later adaptation of the word "Angel" and its concept was due to Roman and greek helinistic influences upon the Jews which was later inherited into modern Christianity.

<H4>Genesis 6
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

It is obvious according to the context, that the sons of God were not human beings, they were some sort of creature whom inpregnated women in which their offsprings were mighty.

In mythology, demons i.e. Jinns have inpregnated human women whom had offsprings with supernatural abilities to be considered half god and half human.

Before we jump to conclusion though we would like to here from our Christian advocates on this issue of who are the Sons of God refered to in Gen 6:1-2 whom were not human beings ?




 

HouseApe

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vajradhara said:
fascinating!


so... you've got a demi-god race of being running around on earth?

how very, very fascinating...

should be an interesting thread...

Nah, I bet it slips away very quietly. By the way, shouldn't Jews be allowed to respond? They started the whole mess.
 
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vajradhara

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HouseApe said:
Nah, I bet it slips away very quietly. By the way, shouldn't Jews be allowed to respond? They started the whole mess.

you are probably correct....

why would they not?

unless, of course, they just felt as if the whole discussion were a spat between two angry cousins.

well... that's true enough... but G!D is for the Jewish people... special like... the Christians and Muslims are going on about a different being, it would seem, even though they wouldn't agree!

of course, that means that some Jewish scripture is tossed on the rubbish bin to make it fit with their views... but... i'm sure that G!D wouldn't mind that, eh :)
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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Yes you are right I would also like Jews to respond if possible. As a matter of fact we would like anyone to contribute to this topic. I was too focussed on a christian response. I wanted to shim things down as to the actual creatures that are spoken about; Here is something to add a little bit more spice to the topic.

"The tradition in Genesis 6.4 may reflect the Canaanite myth of the birth of minor gods from the union of El and human women. The conception of the Rephaim as supermen may reflect the Canaanite tradition of defunct kings as rp'um, or Dispensers of fertility. The identity in tradition of 'the fallen ones' of Genesis 6:4 and the Rephaim is supported by the nature of the latter in Proverbs 2:18; Job 26:5 and Phoenician funerary inscriptions."
- John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology

:scratch:
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Before we jump to conclusion though we would like to here from our Christian advocates on this issue of who are the Sons of God refered to in Gen 6:1-2 whom were not human beings ?

I am not done replying to you confusion in the other thread so in the meanwhile you can go to google and type "sons of god in genesis 6"

I am sure you will educate yourself faster that way.
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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Glad you could join us.

Confussion ? no sorry I am not confused about a thing. Unlike you, we dont tend to prance around on a fruitless topic where it is not constructive, only someone expressing his deep anamosity with direct or indirect insaults for something he never understood in the first place.

If you wish to answer the question then do it, if not, dont reply with your unwanted sarcasm. You said on the other thread that there is no where in the Bible the mention of Jinns, well here you go answer who were the sons of God that mated with human women and had children ?

Lets see how knowledgable you are about the Bible. The purpose here is to expand in knowledge, on the same line, respecting each other, to understand each other, and to share views so we can have a better relationship as human beings. It is obious you havent learnt that basic Christian fundamental teaching yet, much less to believe you were an adherent muslim. Your attitude is still militant, which has no room in humbleness of being Christian.
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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I was waiting for that answer :thumbsup:

They couldnt have been Angels, also the concept of Angels as we mentioned above came into being after Jewish exposure to other beliefs in which Christianity inherited, whereas it is not originally biblical. The Biblical term is "Malach" originally meaning "Messengers, or Errand Runners".

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (2 Peter 2:4-5).


Above is the proof they were not angels, as those angels were damned to hell and chained there according to the biblical perspective. This only applies to Christians though cause Jews however do not see Peter as an authoritve source, in which we are still wating for their response.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Glad you could join us.

Confussion ? no sorry I am not confused about a thing. Unlike you, we dont tend to prance around on a fruitless topic where it is not constructive, only someone expressing his deep anamosity with direct or indirect insaults for something he never understood in the first place.

I didn't say anything about Confucius, I said "confusion" calm down a bit, so many typos! :D Anyway I am in a good mood so excuse me... Well it is a fruitless topic when it brings the fact of "superstition" carefully embedded in Islam where you can see fruits of it in every part of Islam, farside brought a few examples forth!!! Spare the hot air of your own opinions about "deep animosity", "insaults", "that I didn't understand Islam in the first place" garbage, I am not interested in these whinings. I am interested in you or any other follower of Islam to prove the claims of Islam historically and factually correct against Christianity's position. I have no problem whatsoever with any muslim personally as you try to suggest and paint me with the "animosity" brush on these forums however my problem is the belief system and ideology of Islam. You want to defend it, try doing your best instead of wasting breath like above. I am on this forum for years and you are not the only muslim stopped by and had a chat with me.

If you wish to answer the question then do it, if not, dont reply with your unwanted sarcasm. You said on the other thread that there is no where in the Bible the mention of Jinns, well here you go answer who were the sons of God that mated with human women and had children ?

That is the entire purpose of your thread, YOU ARE GOING DOWN, might as well pull us down under also... No way jose, Biblical exegesis and Biblical history is not the same as Islamic counterparts as you wished to be, Islamic jinni is not mentioned in the Bible as Muhammad described to you. However features of these creatures might be similar, this doesn't mean they are the jinni of Islam. Do you call a dolphin "fish"? Still, lets assume they are the same creatures as Islam puts it as jinni, Islam popping up 600 some years later with a strong Christian and Jewish influence, suggests clearly that it is anything but authentic.

Lets see how knowledgable you are about the Bible. The purpose here is to expand in knowledge, on the same line, respecting each other, to understand each other, and to share views so we can have a better relationship as human beings. It is obious you havent learnt that basic Christian fundamental teaching yet, much less to believe you were an adherent muslim. Your attitude is still militant, which has no room in humbleness of being Christian.

Again save the lecture, it is funny how you mention these things while your brothers who share the same faith on the other side of the globe are establishing "better" relationships by acting the way very first muslims did. Don't lecture me about Christian fundamental teaching when you are not even in the box.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
I was waiting for that answer :thumbsup:

They couldnt have been Angels, also the concept of Angels as we mentioned above came into being after Jewish exposure to other beliefs in which Christianity inherited, whereas it is not originally biblical. The Biblical term is "Malach" originally meaning "Messengers, or Errand Runners".



Above is the proof they were not angels, as those angels were damned to hell and chained there according to the biblical perspective. This only applies to Christians though cause Jews however do not see Peter as an authoritve source, in which we are still wating for their response.

No doubt you were waiting that answer, now using your Biblical exegesis let me see how you tie the arabic jinni to these...
 
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HouseApe

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Yes you are right I would also like Jews to respond if possible. As a matter of fact we would like anyone to contribute to this topic. I was too focussed on a christian response. I wanted to shim things down as to the actual creatures that are spoken about; Here is something to add a little bit more spice to the topic.

"The tradition in Genesis 6.4 may reflect the Canaanite myth of the birth of minor gods from the union of El and human women. The conception of the Rephaim as supermen may reflect the Canaanite tradition of defunct kings as rp'um, or Dispensers of fertility. The identity in tradition of 'the fallen ones' of Genesis 6:4 and the Rephaim is supported by the nature of the latter in Proverbs 2:18; Job 26:5 and Phoenician funerary inscriptions."
- John Gray, Near Eastern Mythology


Outside of the Abrahamic religious communities, it is generally recognized that Jews were a branch of Canaanites, and initially worshipped the Canaanite pantheon. Hence El is a name for God in the Bible (and is the Canaanite supreme God) and the Elohim was his family. YHWH was a son of El who was the special protector of the Jewish branch of the Canaanites. When the 10 commandments says "Thou shall worship no other god before me", YHWH is not saying there are no other gods, He is saying Jews are not allowed to worship any of His brothers/sisters.

It isn't until after the Babylonian exile and Jewish introduction to Zoroastrianism that Jews become monotheist. Zoroastrianism also introduced the concepts of struggle against sin, a redeeming saviour, resurrection, and the eventual destruction of the world.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
It is obvious according to the context, that the sons of God were not human beings, they were some sort of creature whom inpregnated women in which their offsprings were mighty.

They are not angels but they are jinnis either smarty, where do you see in context that these creatures are both good and evil, live among us invisibly, they are subject to judgement at the end, created from fire? Where?

This passage summarizes the state of affairs of Adam's descendants

Historically there have been three primary views of Gen 6:1-4. The "sons of God" are (1) angels (the oldest); (2) royalty (also very old); and (3) pious men from the "line of Seth." The first view has not been widely held since it contradicts Mt 22:30. The commonly accepted view is that the "sons of God" refer to the godly line of Seth. This assumes that verses 1-4 introduce the account of the Flood and are to be understood as its cause.

This little narrative, therefore, is a reminder that Adam's children had greatly increased in number, had married, and had continued to have children; i.e., a picture of everyday affairs (Mt 24:38-39).

The sense of verse 3 is clear if read within the context of what precedes and follows. After creating humans as male and female, God "called them man", which obviously had a wider scope than the personal individual of ch. 4. In the remainder of ch. 5, the focus was on the lives of individual men again. Here in verse 3 God speaks a second time, again speaking of "man" as "humankind." Between these two statements of God about humankind is the list of ten great individual men, whose length of life stands in stark contrast to the "one hundred and twenty years" of the life of humankind. The inference is that it was God's Spirit dwelling with these men that gave them their long lives.


About the three possibilities have been put forth;

1. "Sons of God" were fallen angels, who during "Lucifer's" (Satan's) rebellion left their place heaven and were cast to the earth. This interpretation is built on texts like (Jude 1:6, Rev. 12.7-9, Job 1:6)

Fallen angels? However, to have children, they must have had sex, and angels do not. "They are neither male nor female." "they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven." Mark 12:25 Furthermore, if the judgment of the Flood was against the "sons of god" and they were angels, they would actually have escaped it since they are spiritual beings. Also Gen. 6:3 speaks of "flesh".

2. "Sons of god" were kings and rulers

David Livingston, on his "ancientdays" website gives a third possibility.
The "sons of the god" were tyrannical kings "claiming" divinity.
This was common practice in post-flood times. Kings and rulers claiming to the "sons of the gods" or goddesses, and ruling as "divine" persons.

We see no reason why historically well-established post-Flood patterns cannot also explain pre-Flood conditions.

QUOTE
"There would be nothing extraordinary in a worldwide diffusion of divine kingship: the doctrine evidently has exercised a great fascination over the human mind. Greece and Rome shook it off in their youth, but returned to it in their old age. When Alexander claimed to be the son of Zeus he was merely continuing, reviving, or borrowing from the East an ancient belief that the first-born of the king was really the son of a god who had assumed bodily form in order to lie with the Queen, a belief which was current in Egypt under the Early Dynasties of the Empire, if not earlier. The later Romans had to accept the divinity of kings with their empire . . . . Having thus re-established their sway over Western Europe the divine kings of the world did not again surrender it except to another Divine King, a Spiritual King, incarnated once for all in order ever after to rule over the souls of men (Hocart, pp. 16, 16).

3. "Sons of God" were the descendants of righteous Seth, while the Sons and daughters of man, were the descendants of wicked Cain. This interpretation is based on texts like (Luke 3:38, John 1:12)

Could the godly line become so totally corrupt that they were responsible for the Flood? Possibly, those who profess to be God's children and are not hold the higher responsibility.

Exposition of Genesis 6:1-5 in Light of "Divine" Kingship
(Thoughts taken from David Livingston's webpage at "ancientdays")

Marriage.
If "the sons of the gods" are despots pretending to be "divine" kings, then who are the "daughters of men?" Possibly the children of Seth, that is, "believers." Or, they may simply have been common people, in contrast to "divine" kings. Likely this latter is the sense in which it is used since it describes well the practices of the ancient Near East. There, tyrants took (or "snatched away") whoever they chose of the daughters of the common man. They were his "property."
The Hebrew word laqach means "to take, to grab and pull away." But the modern Hebrew meaning is simply "to marry." In Genesis 6, it likely means that the sons of the gods forcibly took the daughters of "men," whoever and whenever they chose.

"Flesh" . . . Not Gods. Further confirmation that Genesis 6 refers to human tyrants, "divine" kings, is seen in the way the Lord refers to them in verse 3. They are "flesh."

"Fallen Giants". "Giants" in verse 4 may mean tall men. The word niphal refers sometimes in Scripture to men of large stature. But it also means "to fall." It may have a double meaning here -- tall men who have fallen from Jehovah's favor, men who sin grossly.

It is possible to assume your jinnis are the Watchers of the Book of Enoch. It is what many believe happened from the Book of Enoch. So it is possible that an error filled version survived with Islam.

The Sons of God were and are those who do the will of God. In those early days...the Sons of Adam became two groups of people. Those that remained faithfull to the teachings of Adam were called Sons of God and Those who left the teachings of Adam were called son and daughter of men.

Job 38: 7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The "sons of God" is also a term that means Watchers (Angels) and these formed into two groups. Those that remained faithful to God and those that rebelled.

Many books were rejected and banned after the death of the Apostles and has left huge gaping holes in the gospel. This eventually led to the formation of many different religions all based on the same gospel.

The whole motive behind this argument is that yes we have pre-islamic jinni in our book, similarly you do too... Well, the substance that makes mythology has always grown side by side with truth. God gives the truth, and for every truth Satan comes up with a counterfeit.

I have yet to see the definition of jinni in the Bible.
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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demons i.e. Jinns have inpregnated human women whom had offsprings with supernatural abilities to be considered half god and half human.

Demons are not jinns, but a close term in wrongful use, there are certainly no "good" demons
 
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