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The Sons of God ?

urnotme

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Thanks for clearifying you statement.

"the Sons of God maried/went unto the daughters of men"

In the Hebrew it is " banuth aadam ", literally "daughters of mankind". Isnt Seth and his sons of Mankind ?

Isnt their a complete distinguishment of race in the context between Sons of God and the daughters of Mankind ?
There are two views held by Christians. One is the one about the fallen angels, the other is they were the sons of seth who is thought to be a son of god. The daughters of men reffers to the daughters of Cain. [size=+1]GENESIS 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.[/size] (NKJV)


[size=+1]There has been much speculation about who these "sons of God" mentioned in the sixth chapter of Genesis were. Three basic interpretations of this passage have been advanced.

The first, and oldest, belief is that "the sons of God" were fallen angels who consorted with human women, producing giant offspring called nephilim (Heb. נפלי&#1501 This view was widely held in the world of the first century, and was supported by Flavius Josephus, Philo, Eusebius and many of the "Ante-Nicene Fathers," including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Athenagoras and Commodianus.

The second view is one which was first suggested by Julius Africanus and later advocated by Saint Augustine, the Catholic Bishop of Hippo. Augustine rejected the concept of the fallen host having committed fornication with women. In his early fifth century book The City of God, he promoted the theory that "the sons of God" simply referred to the genealogical line of Seth, who were committed to preserving the true worship of God. He interpreted Genesis 6 to mean that the male offspring of Adam through Seth were "the sons of God," and the female offspring of Adam through Cain were "the daughters of men." He wrote that the problem was that the family of Seth had interbred with the family of Cain, intermingling the bloodlines and corrupting the pure religion. This view has become the dominant one among most modern biblical scholars.

The third view is that "the sons of God" were the sons of pre-Flood rulers or magistrates. This belief became the standard explanation of rabbinical Judaism after Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai pronounced a curse in the second century C.E. upon those Jews who believed the common teaching that the angels were responsible for the nephilim. This interpretation was advocated by two of the most respected Jewish rabbis of the Middle Ages, Rashi and Nachmanides, and became the standard explanation of rabbinical Judaism. However, it is not widely accepted by modern scholars.

To determine who these "sons of God" were, we'll first examine what various outside sources have to say about this topic. Then we'll examine the ultimate authority, the Bible, to see its position.





Let's start with a quotation and footnote from William Whitson's translation of the respected first century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus' history of the Jewish people:
[size=+1]Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers, and did neither pay those honors to God which were appointed to them, nor had they any concern to do justice towards men. But for what degree of zeal they had formerly shown for virtue, they now showed by their actions a double degree of wickedness; whereby they made God to be their enemy, for many angels* of God accompanied with women and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians called giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and, being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better; but, seeing that they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land.[/size] (p. 32, bk. 1, ch. 3, §§72-74, The Antiquities of the Jews, translated by William Whitson) * This notion, that the fallen angels were, in some sense the fathers of the old giants, was the constant opinion of antiquity.






[size=+1]As you can see, Josephus believed and recorded that "the sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 were fallen angels. As Whitson's footnote acknowledges, this belief was standard in the ancient world.





Another well-known first century Jewish writer, Philo of Alexandria, shared Josephus' views on this topic. In his work "On the Giants," Philo wrote:
[size=+1]"And when the angels of God saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful, they took unto themselves wives of all them whom they chose." Those beings, whom other philosophers call demons, Moses usually calls angels . . . [/size](p. 152, The Works of Philo, "On the Giants," translated by C.D. Yonge)​





The Book of Enoch (also called I Enoch) is a collection of pseudepigraphic writings by various authors which dates to the first or second century B.C. This book was well-known by the early church; in fact, Jude, the brother of Jesus, quoted Enoch 1:9 in verses 14 and 15 of his epistle. Obviously Jude felt that the Book of Enoch he had access to in the first century was trustworthy. This work, which survived to our day against great odds, deals extensively with the fall of the angels. It was viewed favorably by some early "Christian" writers also (Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and others). However, it was never universally accepted as inspired Scripture. Below is a selection from the Book of Enoch which records the sin of the angelic "watchers":
[size=+1]ENOCH 6:1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon . . .[/size] (From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, translated by R.H. Charles)​





[size=+1]A similar passage is also found in the pseudepigraphic Book of Jubilees:[/size]
[size=+1]JUBILEES 5:1 And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they 2 chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants. And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth - all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men 3 (was) thus evil continually . . .[/size] (From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, translated by R.H. Charles)​

[size=+1]The Genesis Apocryphon, one of the texts uncovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls, also contains references to the angels interbreeding with human women. In this text, a conversation between Lamech, the father of Noah, and his wife Bathenosh is detailed. Lamech questions his wife because he thinks that the conception of Noah was due to either an angel or one of their offspring, a nephilim. The Book of Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and the Genesis Apocryphon all clearly show that the common understanding at the time of Christ was that the fallen host had committed fornication with women in the period before the flood.





As stated previously, many early Christian writers accepted the story told in Enoch as fact. Let's examine the writings of two of them, beginning with Justin Martyr, who lived from 110 C.E. to 165 C.E. Here is what he had to say in chapter 5 of his Second Apology, entitled ""How the Angels Transgressed":
[size=+1]God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law - for these things also He evidently made for man - committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate needs, and all wickedness. . . .[/size] (p. 363, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers)​





Now let's examine chapter 3, "The Worship of Demons," from The Instructions of Commodianus, a North-African bishop who lived about 240 C.E.:
[size=+1]When Almighty God, to beautify the nature of the world, willed that that earth should be visited by angels, when they were sent down they despised His laws. Such was the beauty of women, that it turned them aside; so that, being contaminated, they could not return to heaven. Rebels from God, they uttered words against Him. Then the Highest uttered His judgment against them; and from their seed giants are said to have been born. By them arts were made known in the earth, and they taught the dyeing of wool, and everything which is done; and to them, when they died, men erected images. But the Almighty, because they were of an evil seed, did not approve that, when dead, they should be brought back from death. Whence wandering they now subvert many bodies, and it is such as these especially that ye this day worship and pray to as gods.[/size] (p. 435, vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers)​

The idea that the nephilim or giants were the offspring of the fallen host and human females was not unique to Judaism. This understanding was likely behind the Greek, Roman, and Egyptian mythologies, as well as those of India and the near east. All these beliefs resulted not as mere inventions of fertile human imagination, but as a corruption of antediluvian truths which were distorted as their origin was forgotten over time.

Take, for example, the legend of the Titans. In Greek mythology, the Titans were a family of giant gods who were the offspring of Uranus (heaven) and Gaea (earth). The most famous of the Titans was Cronus, who killed his father. Cronus later led the Titans in their losing war against Zeus and the Olympian gods. After their defeat, the Titans were imprisoned in a section of the underworld called Tartarus.





In his second epistle, the apostle Peter uses part of this Greek myth to explain the fate of some of the fallen angels. He states that for their sins, these angels had been tartarosas, which The NKJV Greek English Interlinear New Testament translates literally as "confining them to Tartarus" (also known in the Bible as "the Abyss").
[size=+1]II PETER 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarosas] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;[/size] (NKJV)​

[size=+1]This is the same Tartarus where Greek mythology says the Titans were imprisoned. It's highly unlikely that Peter would have used such an analogy if this pagan legend wasn't based on at least some grain of truth which his readers would have knowledge of. The idea that evil angels mated with human women and had offspring (the nephilim) appears far-fetched to us in this modern era, but it seems to have been widely accepted as fact in the ancient world.





As we've seen above, the word translated "giants" in Genesis 6:4 is nephilim. Let's look at what The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia has to say about the possible origins of this Hebrew word:
[size=+1]The etymology of nepîlîm is uncertain, the following explanations have been advanced with mixed reception. First, it may derive from the niphal of the verb pala, meaning "be extraordinary," i.e., "extraordinary men." Second, it may be derived from the verb napal, "fall," in one of the following senses: (1) the "fallen ones" - from heaven, i.e., supernatural beings; (2) morally "fallen men"; (3) "those who fall upon," in the sense of invaders or hostile, violent men; (4) "those who fell by" the sword (cf. Ezk. 32:20f.); (5) "unnaturally begotten men" or *******s (from cf. nepel, "abortion" or miscarriage").[/size] (pp. 518-519, vol. 3)​

[/size][/size][/size][/size]
 
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urnotme

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Yummy ! reading that reminded me of a nice chocolate fudge browny with whip cream :)

Ok, they where not human being whereas the majority of the commentaries from the elite say fallen angels.

Now what is an Angel and the concept of an Angel ?
I don't know what made you think of a fudge brownie with whipped cream but it sounds good now I want one. The word angelos or angel means messenger. There are cheribim, and seraphim and angels. I don't know the differance but lucifer was the anointed cherub before he fell. Ezekial 28:14
 
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HumbleSiPilot77

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My whole point on this thread, was to expound with the various views on whom the Sons of God were, and build a constructive criticism that we can all share in, then I was going to introduce the Islamic concept showing how it fits into all of this.

It doesn't fit in it anywhere as jinni hadiths (see farside's quotes) show us...
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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Oxy2Hydr0 said:
Bushmaster said:
Go read back hadith "samples" farside quoted, either those hadiths are lying, or these jinnis are some beings never mentioned in human history except Quran. Either way, I don't believe in them...


would you like us to show you the interpretive translation errors in those hadeeth that you mentor has posted ?

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16165404&posted=1#post16165404

Yes please, and those christians that want to know what those hadeeths actually say please PM me I will send you the Arabic text with an interliner showing the translators interpolations which are his own words in interpretation of our Prophet actaully said. Unfoirtunately I dont think this forum supports Arabic text.
 
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Is there a hadith resource like the "Peshitta Bible" *cough cough* that "supports completely opposite" translation?

I wonder how much will it change the devil that dwells in the nose overnight as reported Muhammad said. Or the wide belief of jinni dwelling in WC areas...
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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Bushmaster said:
Is there a hadith resource like the "Peshitta Bible" *cough cough* that "supports completely opposite" translation?

I wonder how much will it change the devil that dwells in the nose overnight as reported Muhammad said. Or the wide belief of jinni dwelling in WC areas...

This is an example of what you would see :

ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ

dhaalika (that) al (the) kitaabu (scripture) laa (no) rayba (doubt) fee (in) hi (it) hudan (guidance) li (for) al (the) mutaqeen (pious)

The Arabic will be next to each transliteration with its meaning. Then they will see with the actual translation made where the interpolations of their own thought were interjected.

It is a form that we use in Arabic Classes to give a basic understand to those who are learning Arabic. WOuld you like to be the first canadate ?
 
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urnotme said:
Maybe I believe too much of what I read online but jesus did tell the saducees that people don't marry in heaven but are like the angels.
just because angels dont marry in heaven does not necessarily mean that they are genderless; it would merely mean that angels dont have state-authorized marriages licenses in heaven when they procreate together with each other; angels in heaven are not held sway by the same governmental systems that we have on the earth
 
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Why Yahweh Adonai , Etc In Genesis 1 ; 26 Referred To As '' We '' Or '' Us ''
When Ever You See '' We '' Or '' Us '' In The Scripture It Is Actually Referring To God As '' Eloheem . '' Thus The '' God '' Of The Bible Is A Part Of A Group Of Gods .
Genesis 1; 26 <> RighTranslation In Aramic ( Hebrew )
And The Eloheem / Anunnaqi Said Amongst Themselves '' Now Let's Breed By Cloning People , Lulu Amelu A Homo - Sapien Of This Planet Earth Adamites Looking Just Like Ourselves , Anunnaqi , And Acting Like Ourdelves And We Will Give The Rulership Over The Fish Of The Sea , And Birds Of The Skies , And Over All Of The Non Speaking Mammals , And All Of The Creeping Thing That Greep Upon The Planet Earth ''
Genesis 1 ; 26



And God Said , Let Us Make Man In Our Image , After Our Likeness And Let Them Have Dominion Over The Fish Of The Sea And Over The Fowl Of The Air , And Over The Cattle . And Over All The Earth , And Over Every Creeping Thing That Creepeth Upon The Earth .
Eloheem = Plural For God's Meaning More The One Gen 6 ; 2 ; 6; 4 ; Job 1 ; 6 ; 2 ; 1 ; Psalm 82 ; 1 ; 82 ; 6 ; John 10 ; 34 - 35 ,
Eloheem Are The Angels Of El Or Messengers Of El . They Are A Host Of Beings That Do The Work Of El . Eloheem Are Found In The Beginning Of The Torah Genesis Chapter 1 And The Word Is Mistranslated As GOD ( Genesis 1 ; 1 ) . When It Was Translated Into English To Give The Impression That Its A Single Form , When It Is Really Plural . It's


Plural Because Of The Last Two Letters '' Im '' Or '' Yod Mem '' In Aramic ( Hebrew ) . When This Is Added To The End Of A Hebrew Word , It Denotes Plurality . The Greek Theh - Os , In The New Testament Is Equivalent To The Word Eloheem . The Name '' Eloheem '' Is Used For Both Agreeable And Disagreeable Beings . If You Write Down The Word '' Eloheem '' You Will Find This Word Is Grammatically The Plural Form Of A Noun . The Lettrs '' Yod Mem , In The Hebrew Language Are Found At The End Of Ancient Syretic Words Which Have Been Grafted Into The Arabic Language . Hebrew Plurals In The Masculine , End In '' Im '' Yod Mem '' . To Add A ' S '' To This When We Introduce Such Words Into English , Is Improper . Therefore , The Word Should Be Written '' Cherubim ''' Not '' Cherubims '' . This Is



To Show You That If Eloheem Can Be Defined As A Plural ( Meaning Gods And Goddesses ) ; How Can This Be Referring To El Eloh ? Within The Word Eloheem Is The Plural '' Im '' Which Mean '' They '' These Beings '' . So The Make It Clear To Everyone That The Ancient Hebrew Word Eloheem With The Last Two Letters Added Becomes Merely A Derivative Of Eloh , Which Is A Derivative From El , And If It Is A Derivative , Meaning Derived From . It Means Taken From The Original , Not The Original . Then It Can't Be The One Deity (God ) Because The One Deity Has To Be The Root Of All The Derivative , Not A Part Of The Root . Now El Can Be Part Of The Eloheem Which Is The Plural Of El ( The AngelicBeings ) Because Some Of Him Is In The Angels . He Of Course Is A Part Of The Eloheem ; Which Means They Are Also Refered To As The '' We '' Or '' Us '' .
Deuteronomy 5 ; 7 < Right Traslation In Aramic ( Hebrew )
You Are To Hold Loyalty To No Other Eloheem
Deuteronomy 5 ; 7 < King Jame 1611 A.D. >



Thou Shalt Have None Other Gods Before Me ''
The Purpose Of Explanning This Word Is So That You Can Better OverStand That The Word '' Eloheem '' Could Not Be Referring To One Entity , As These Translators Believe That At Times El Eloh And His AngelicBeings Are Referred To In The The Scriptures , Ask Them To Explain Why It Is Found In The Torah ? Of Course They Can't , Because They Aren't Versed In The Original Aramic ( Hebrew ) Language , So I'll Explain To You Why . First Lets Take The Word Allahumma
Koran 3 ; 26 < Arabic >



Say ; '' O Allahumma ( The Eloheem / Anunnaqi ) . You Are The Maalik ''<> Ruler '' Of Al Mulki '<> The Rulership ' You Give Al Mulks The Rulership To Whomere You Please , And You Remove Al Mulka <> The Rulership ' From Whomever You Please ; And You ( Forify ) Tu'izzu <> Make Mighty ' Who You Please , And You Tudhillu <> Humble '' Whomever You Please , By ( The Aid Of ) Yadika <> ' Your Hands , Al Khayr <. Is That Which Is Good ' Surely You Have The Qadiyr <> Power Over All Things .
Which Is Really From The Hebrew Word Eloheem In Genesis 1 ; 26 And Found In The Torah 430 Times . The Following Are The Three Word Used For The Creator In The Torah .
1 . El < Aramic / Hebrew >
2 . Elowah '' '' ''
3 , Eloheem '' ''' '' ''



And These Number Match Up Exactly To How Many Time They Show Up In The Torah . The Most Controversial Of The Three Words Is The Word Eloheem Or Allahumma . However , Before I Discuss The Word Eloheem Or Allahuma With You , I Would Like To Give You An Explanation Of The Word El And The Word Elowah . The Name Of Allah Is The Same In Hebrew As It Is In Arabic ; As You Will See From The Following Explanation ;
1. El ( AL ) . The Word . If Found Within The Quote Isaiah 12; 2 Is In Reference To The Creator . It Has Been Mistranslated By English Translators As '' God ''
Isaiah 12 ; 2 < Right Translation In Aramic ( Hebrew )
Here , El Is My Salvation ; I Will Trust , And Not Be Afraid ; For The Ya Yahuwa Is My Strength And My Song Of Praise , He Also Becomes My Slavation .
Isaiah 12 ; 2 King James 1611 A.D.



Behold , God Is My Salvation ; I Will Trust , And Not Be Afraid ; For The Lord Jehovah Is My Strength And My Song ; He Also Is Become My Salvation . ''
The Word El Or Al Is An Old Demonstrative Pronoun Slightly Pointing Out A Thing . The Following Definitions Have Been Taken From '' The Concise Staement Of The Principle Of Hebrew Grammar '' Published By Edward C . Mitchell .
Hebrew ; El Arabic ; Al
Used In The Sense Of The This Word Mean '' The '' It Is A
Creator Being The Almighty Definite Article Pointing Out A
Creator , It Literally Means Certain Thing , The Name Of Allah
Strong , Power , Mighty One Is Made Up Of This Definite Article AL
Or '' The '' And The Pronun Lahu Or ''
For Him ''



. Elowah ; Is Mentioned In Daniel 11 ; 38 ,
Daniel 11 ; 38 < Right Translation In Aramic ( Hebrew )
But In His Estate Will He Honour The Eloh Of Forces ; And A Eloh Whom His Father Knew Not Will He Honour With Gold , And Silver And With Precious Stones , And Pleasant Things .
Daniel 11 ; 38 < King James 1611 A.D. >
But In His Estate Shall He Honor The God Of Forces ; And A God Whom His Father Knew Not Shall He Honor With Gold And Silver , And With Precious Stones , And Pleasant Things . ''
The Word Elowah Is Referring To Creator In The Preceding Quotes And Is Is Mistranslated As God , Elowah Is A Derivative Of The Word El . It Comes From The Ancient Form Of The Word Alahhu Or Elahh . Has Becaome Obsolete In The Hebrew Language , And It Corresponds With The Arabic Word Alaha or Ilaahi .
Alahhu Or Elahh Alaha
To Worship And To Adore To Worship , Swear , Adore ; From
To Swear , From This Comes Thus You Get The Name Of The
Eloah , Which Corresponds Creator Al Khaaliq .



Of The Creator .
Elahha Or Alahhu In Aramic For Alaha , Closely Resembles The Arabic Word Alaha . This Is Further Proof That Hebrew , Aramic And Arabic Are The Same Language . From The Ancient Chaldean Language , Both El . And Elowah Are In The Singular Tense .
These Are The Same Words ! Just Look Close And You Will See They Are The Same . < Look At The Diagram Below >
Aramic Arabic
Eloahum ( Eloheem ) Allahumma
Eloheem Is The Plural Of The Word Allahuma Is The Plural For The
Alahhu , A Definition Given From Name Allah . The Plural
A Hebrew Dictionary Entitled A Concise Hum Is A Representation
Statement Of The Principle Of Hebrew Of The Creator And His Angelic
Grammar '' By Edward G . Mitchell States Bening Also '' Allah And All His
Eloahim Is A Plural Tense Of The Word Attributes '' The Attributes Called
Goddesses . ( Psalms 71;17 ; 72 ; 1 ) The Koran 3 ;26 , 10 ; 10 , 39 , 46



What They Are Not Telling You Is That This Word Eloahim Is Not In Quraish Or Modern Arabic Terms Or Even In The Terms Of The Modern Classical Arabic Used In The Koran . But It Is Another One Of Those Word That Has Been Grafted From . The Hebrew Term Eloahim . Which Came From The Syretic Term Brought From The Phoenicians , And The Babylonians. Originally From Cuneiform . It Is A Fact That Allahumma ( Or Eloahim ) Is Grammatically A Plural Word . It Is Made From Two Words , Allah And Hum Which Is The Arabic Suffix For '' Them '' Just Like The Jews And The Muslims , Christian Etc , Find The Word '' We '' Used In The Scriptures ( The Torah And The Koran Etc . ) ( And Still Say It Is A Singular Word )
Now Ask Them How Can '' We '' Be < Singular > ? If God Would Have Wanted It To Be < Singular > He Would Have Said '' I '
 
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