The snare of devotion to Mary.

[justinangel]

I have been a bit nitpicky, trying to stay on the original thread point with regard to whether the idea that Mary is Mediatrix of All Graces is required for salvation, and even whether this understanding is the teaching of the Church.

What is clearly and definitely needed for our salvation is divine grace.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Ephesians 2, 8

Thus Mary is necessary for our salvation not absolutely, but morally; since God has willed that all the graces He dispenses by the operation of the Holy Spirit should flow through her by way of the Son. That Mary is Mediatrix of all Grace is a doctrine all Catholics should embrace by giving their 'pious assent', since it has been magisterially taught by many popes, and expounded on by many fathers, doctors, and saints of the Church. Catholics are not expected to give only their 'sacred assent' to the defined dogmatic teachings of the Church. The popes do not have to infallibly speak 'ex-cathedra' in order to teach an infallible truth. They do non-infallibly teach infallible truths which have been divinely revealed to the Church in the exercise of their divine office in the ordinary magisterium (cf. Jn 16:12-13). In a featured article at CatholicCulture.org, Steve Lovison writes: "Many Catholics erroneously subscribe to the notion that the teachings of Popes only are infallible when officially speaking “ex cathedra’ as if the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are the only papal teaching we are required to believe. Lumen Gentium informs us that a specific papal teaching can be considered part of the ordinary magisterium when they occur in a document of major importance, when it constitutes a consistent and frequently repeated theme, or when it is stated in a deliberate way which unmistakably indicates the pope’s intention to teach."

“Thus there is mediation: Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of its wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself “in the middle”, that is to say, she acts as a mediatrix not as an outsider, but in her position as Mother. She knows that, as such, she can point out to her Son the needs of mankind and in fact, she “has the right” to do so.”
Pope St. John Paul II, Redemptoris Mater (1987)

“She teaches us all virtues; she gives us Her Son and with Him all the help we need, for God wished for us to have everything through Mary.”
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (1947)

"We know that all things are imparted to us from God, the greatest and best, through the hands of the Mother of God.”
Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Letter, Ingravescentibus malis (1937)

“For with her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death…. One can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race…For this reason, every kind of grace we receive from the treasury of the redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same sorrowful Virgin…”
Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter, Inter Sodalicia (1918)

“For she is the neck of our Head by which He communicates to His Mystical Body all spiritual gifts.”
Pope St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, (1904)

“It is right to say that nothing at all of the immense treasury of every grace which the Lord accumulated – for “grace and truth come from Jesus Christ” (Jn 1:17) – nothing is imparted to us except through Mary… "
Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense[/I] (1891)

“For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her [are] obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation”
Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Letter, Ubi Primum (1849)

“Our Lady is like a celestial stream through which the flow of all graces and gifts reach the soul of all wretched mortals”
Pope Benedict XlV, Op Omnia, (1846)


Mysterium Ecclesiae

Declaration in Defense of the Catholic Doctrine on the Church Against Certain Errors of the Present Day

Issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

June 24 1973

“All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written or transmitted Word of God and which are proposed by the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium, to be believed as having been divinely revealed.”


PAX

 

[xTx]

Every one can have a view-point, but that doesn't alter what is true.

Heaven or eternity with the L-rd and all saints etc lies at the end of the race, in the meantime we immerse ourselves in faith, hope and love by the grace of G-d and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Plenty of time for 'beam me up Scotty' at the end of the journey.

From what I know from 'devout' senior Roman Catholics - superstition is a big no no e.g. some Catholics hang the rosary in their cars - it is actually a no no because it is superstition.

I was in a Cathedral when the Monsignor announced that people please stop performing superstitious rituals such as touching the picture of Mother Mary.

The Monsignor does try to explain to the Roman Catholics that they have crossed the line between superstition and the believes of the Church.

Many well meaning Roman Catholics do cross the line between devotion to God and superstition when they overdo their devotion to Mother Mary.

And, as far as I know, the Monsignor of the Cathedral is aware of it and the last I heard was trying to 'educate' his Catholics about 'not crossing the line'.

P.S. My Catholic mentor told me it is not the paintings of God, the candles, rosaries hung all over the place hither skeeter and prayers recited at lightning speeds or whatever speeds that keeps evil out, it is what is in our hearts. That is what God looks for. God gives power to what is in our hearts.

John 9: 31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

 

[bbbbbbb]

From what I know from 'devout' senior Roman Catholics - superstition is a big no no e.g. some Catholics hang the rosary in their cars - it is actually a no no because it is superstition.

I was in a Cathedral when the Monsignor announced that people please stop performing superstitious rituals such as touching the picture of Mother Mary.

The Monsignor does try to explain to the Roman Catholics that they have crossed the line between superstition and the believes of the Church.

Many well meaning Roman Catholics do cross the line between devotion to God and superstition when they overdo their devotion to Mother Mary.

And, as far as I know, the Monsignor of the Cathedral is aware of it and the last I heard was trying to 'educate' his Catholics about 'not crossing the line'.

P.S. My Catholic mentor told me it is not the paintings of God, the candles, rosaries hung all over the place hither skeeter and prayers recited at lightning speeds or whatever speeds that keeps evil out, it is what is in our hearts. That is what God looks for. God gives power to what is in our hearts.

John 9: 31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

That has been a refreshing change among many Catholics. Along with that has come a freedom to read and study the Bible. When I was young there was much more superstition in the Catholic Church and Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible. I am very glad that things are changing and I pray for more positive changes in the Catholic Church.

 

[Rhamiel]

That has been a refreshing change among many Catholics. Along with that has come a freedom to read and study the Bible. When I was young there was much more superstition in the Catholic Church and Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible. I am very glad that things are changing and I pray for more positive changes in the Catholic Church.

I am sorry if your personal interaction with the Catholic Church had people who were discouraged from reading the Bible

know that this was never a universal view among Catholics

we can look at any faith tradition and find all kinds of mistakes and problems in the past

 

[xTx]

That has been a refreshing change among many Catholics. Along with that has come a freedom to read and study the Bible. When I was young there was much more superstition in the Catholic Church and Catholics were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible. I am very glad that things are changing and I pray for more positive changes in the Catholic Church.

Hi bbbbbbb, as far as I know - Catholicsm in my time:

The Bible -

- the holy bible is read three times during Mass and a lot of the Mass refers to the Holy Bible e.g. responsorial psalm and many prayers throughout the Mass

- at the start of the Mass, the first person who enters the church (in the entrance procession) carries the Bible

- the priest kisses the bible during mass

- And, as far as I know - no Catholic as ever discouraged me from reading the bible. In fact Catholics gave me children's bible with pictures when I was little

- my Catholic mentor discourages any form of superstition very strictly

Glad you are praying for the Catholics, you are all right

Next thing to pray for - unity of Christians around the world.

The 666 has divided Christianity. So that the 666 can have 666's way.

Imagine if all Christians were to unite - 666 kaput.

I hope I can live to see all Christians unite.

 

[justinangel]

From what I know from 'devout' senior Roman Catholics - superstition is a big no no e.g. some Catholics hang the rosary in their cars - it is actually a no no because it is superstition.

I was in a Cathedral when the Monsignor announced that people please stop performing superstitious rituals such as touching the picture of Mother Mary.

The Monsignor does try to explain to the Roman Catholics that they have crossed the line between superstition and the believes of the Church.

Many well meaning Roman Catholics do cross the line between devotion to God and superstition when they overdo their devotion to Mother Mary.

And, as far as I know, the Monsignor of the Cathedral is aware of it and the last I heard was trying to 'educate' his Catholics about 'not crossing the line'.

Hanging a Rosary in a car or touching a picture of Mary becomes a superstitious practice only if Catholics believe these religious relics possess magical powers. The Catholic Church does not condemn the veneration and use of relics as long as it is understood that they simply provide an occasion for divine miracles. There is nothing in the relics themselves that has any physical or spiritual curative capability, or magical power, but rather their efficacy depends on God who works through them, just as the Holy Spirit operates through the sacraments to channel divine grace. Thus the veneration and use of religious relics in Christianity are not superstitious practices as long as magical or supernatural powers aren't attributed to them in themselves. I hope the monsignor meant this by what he said.

The veneration and use of religious relics is in fact scriptural, and so the Catholic Church does not reject them as objects of superstition. We read in the OT that physical contact with Elisha's bones brought a dead man to life.

So Eli′sha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Eli′sha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Eli′sha, he revived, and stood on his feet.
2 Kings 13, 20-21

God does in fact work through physical objects which are connected or associated with His holy servants. We have another example in the NT where the sick are healed when Peter's shadow passes over them.

And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
Acts 5, 14-16

In the NT, we even have a record of believers collecting religious relics in the hope of obtaining miracles. But there is no indication that the apostles rebuked them for having succumbed to superstition or idolatry. The apostles themselves surely knew that it was God working through them that gave occasion of miracles.

And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
Acts 9, 11-12

Since God was working through Peter and Paul as His stewards of divine grace, their shadows, aprons, and handkerchiefs could acquire their efficacy through God's intervention. It was because the Father was working through Jesus, that the woman was cured of her hemorrhage by simply touching the hem of his cloak. Certainly she acted in faith, not out of superstition.

While he was thus speaking to them, behold, a ruler came in and knelt before him, saying, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.” And Jesus rose and followed him, with his disciples. And behold, a woman who had suffered from a hemorrhage for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment; for she said to herself, “If I only touch his garment, I shall be made well.” Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Matthew 9, 20-22

Hanging a set of Rosary beads in a car or touching a picture of Mary is no more a superstitious act than is making use of Elisha's bones, Peter's shadow, Paul's apron and handkerchief, or the hem of our Lord's cloak. So there's no reason why I mustn't hang Paul's handkerchief on my rear view mirror. Many non-Catholics are repelled by the sacramental aspect of Catholicism because of their revulsion at the mixing of spirit and matter. Their sensibility is derived from the idea that the less one is entrapped in matter, the closer they are to God in spirit. That God could channel His grace and divine favour through physical objects is incomprehensible to them. Unfortunately, this form of neo-Gnosticism (Marcionism) that has penetrated Protestantism lies at the root of the aversion many non-Catholics have towards the use of any form of sacramental. Many of these same Christians even deny the regenerating efficacy of the sacrament of Baptism through the operation of the Holy Spirit, which they regard as merely a symbol.

As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man’s eyes with the clay, saying to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Silo′am” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.
John 9, 1-7

PAX

 

[Albion]

Hi bbbbbbb, as far as I know - Catholicsm in my time:

The Bible -

- the holy bible is read three times during Mass

There are several readings, but the Bible is hardly covered and, even if it were, this is not the equivalent of Bible study by individual church members.

-

at the start of the Mass, the first person who enters the church (in the entrance procession) carries the Bible

- the priest kisses the bible during mass

These comments ^ only verify what I wrote above.

 

[justinangel]

There are several readings, but the Bible is hardly covered and, even if it were, this is not the equivalent of Bible study by individual church members.

And so you have more individual churches.

PAX

 

[Albion]

And so you have more individual churches.

PAX

Weren't we discussing the subject of Bible study in Catholic Masses and among individual Catholics?

Or is it that we just reach for some tired anti-Protestant dig whenever we're stuck for a reply???

 

[justinangel]

Weren't we discussing the subject of Bible study in Catholic Masses and among individual Catholics?

Or is it that we just reach for some tired anti-Protestant dig whenever we're stuck for a reply???

We don't study the Bible during Holy Mass, but almost everything we say and do during Mass has its roots in sacred Scripture. Nor does the magisterium of the Catholic Church discourage the faithful from reading the Bible on their own for the sake of their spiritual growth. Meanwhile, I'm never stuck for a reply as you often are.

V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life."109 Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."110

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."111

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

PAX

 

[mark46]

The bible is hardly covered? What does this mean? Much more of the bible is covered during a year than in most Protestant churches.

I agree that there are not bible studies in the middle of liturgy, although there are homilies regarding the readings of the day.

Obviously, I have a different view of the purpose of scriptural reading than you do. Personally, I do NOT think that the mass is the time for an intense bible study. The purpose of having the readings is for the Holy Spirit to speak to each of us. We are NOT to ready along or analyze the readings. We are to lessen for gentle, quiet voice of the Spirit.

Yes, the priest does have a homily with an opening of the Scripture, but the time for bible studies is other than during the mass. Should we have the priest have scripture teaching with questions and answers during the mass? Or should we have a bible study by individual church members? No, of course not.

There are several readings, but the Bible is hardly covered and, even if it were, this is not the equivalent of Bible study by individual church members.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

SOme people get way carried away with Marian devotions. Just as long as you accept the infallible dogmas about her, as defined in the Ecumenical Councils and infallible Papal declarations, you're good.

Off the top of my head:
1. Immaculate Conception, that Mary was born without Original Sin.
2. That she never committed personal sin.
2. Perpetual Virginity
3. Theotokos, that she gave birth to Jesus, who is both fully God and fully man.
4. That she was bodily assumed into heaven after, or shortly before, her death.
5. That she intercedes with God for us on our behalf.

THere's probably one or two I missed, but those are good starting points.

As far as devotions, none are required for salvation. Don't like the rosary? Don't pray it. Don't like the brown scapular? Don't enroll in it. Don't like St. Louis de Montfort's writings? Don't read them.

Edited to add: But you can't deny these devotions to others. They are a part of Catholic tradition. It's just that no particular Catholic can be required to have these devotions. It's why they are called "private" devotions.

As a Lutheran, I can accept some of what you write. Our Confessions refer to Mary as the Theotokos/ Mother of God, Holy Mary, ever Virgin and that the blessed Virgin prays for the Church. In addition, Martin Luther accepted the pious belief of Mary's assumption into Heaven [referred to her as the "Queen of Heaven"; second only to the Holy Trinity] and immaculate conception and, reportedly prayed the Hail Mary/ rosary daily. In Europe there are many Lutheran churches in honor of St Mary, statues/ shrines in Lutheran church devoted to Our Lady.

Most Lutherans, however, do not pray the Angelus and avoid any semblance of Roman Catholic doctrine. Lutherans see no evidence of some Marian piety in the Scriptures and can even question Mary's perpetual virginity. In the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue, Mary's role is accepted as articulated by Vatican II and Lutherans don't view Catholic dogmas [Immaculate Conception/ Assumption into Heaven] as "church-dividing". I know of a Lutheran parish in Texas devoted to the "Virgin of Guadalupe" but most north American Lutherans do not believe in the apparitions of Mary.

 

[Albion]

The bible is hardly covered? What does this mean? Much more of the bible is covered during a year than in most Protestant churches.

I don't believe that that comment is accurate, but let's be straightforward. The subject was originally about Catholics studying the Bible. The idea that there are selections from the Bible read at Mass does NOT equate to Bible study by individual members, nor is the whole Bible read at Mass; not by a long shot.

Maybe this matters. Maybe it's trivia. But let's not drift into other debates.

I agree that there are not bible studies in the middle of liturgy, although there are homilies regarding the readings of the day.

Right. But neither is Bible study nearly as common among Catholics as among Protestants, for what that's worth.

Obviously, I have a different view of the purpose of scriptural reading than you do.

Really? I can't imagine how.

Personally, I do NOT think that the mass is the time for an intense bible study.

No one said that it is. BUT there were several attempts from the Catholic quarter to counter the idea that Catholics don't engage in Bible study as commonly as do Protestants by claiming that the Bible is read during Mass. So it's not I who introduced that idea into the discussion.

 

[MKJ]

I don't believe that that comment is accurate, but let's be straightforward. The subject was originally about Catholics studying the Bible. The idea that there are selections from the Bible read at Mass does NOT equate to Bible study by individual members, nor is the whole Bible read at Mass; not by a long shot.

Maybe this matters. Maybe it's trivia. But let's not drift into other debates.


Right. But neither is Bible study nearly as common among Catholics as among Protestants, for what that's worth.


Really? I can't imagine how.


No one said that it is. BUT there were several attempts from the Catholic quarter to counter the idea that Catholics don't engage in Bible study as commonly as do Protestants by claiming that the Bible is read during Mass. So it's not I who introduced that idea into the discussion.

I don't know. Quite a lot of Protestant Bible study is pretty bad, so I think that stuff really shouldn't be counted at all. That would even things up quite a lot I think.

And Protestants overall tend to be rather poor on church history - it can seem that it stops sometime shortly after acts and doesn't start again till about the Reformation. Not always of course, but that is also true with Catholics and bible study.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't know. Quite a lot of Protestant Bible study is pretty bad, so I think that stuff really shouldn't be counted at all. That would even things up quite a lot I think.

And Protestants overall tend to be rather poor on church history - it can seem that it stops sometime shortly after acts and doesn't start again till about the Reformation. Not always of course, but that is also true with Catholics and bible study.

In my experience I have encountered plenty of professing Christians who are either entirely or mostly ignorant of the Bible and church history. That includes both Protestants and Catholics. In my earlier years my Catholic friends were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible, but that has changed significantly now. There are Catholic Bible studies, but interest in studying the Bible among Catholics is not as widespread as among Protestants even now IMO.

 

[Albion]

I don't know. Quite a lot of Protestant Bible study is pretty bad, so I think that stuff really shouldn't be counted at all. That would even things up quite a lot I think.

I wouldn't say so. The question really was just about Bible study. It wasn't a matter of which or whose study was the more accurate, thorough, or anything like that. In other words, you might be correct, technically, but it's not what the issue was about IMO. And as for myself, I've witnessed good Bible study among Protestants and also bad Bible study, but even with the urging of the RCC in only the last few years, I don't know very many Catholics who engage in any at all.

And Protestants overall tend to be rather poor on church history - it can seem that it stops sometime shortly after acts and doesn't start again till about the Reformation.

This is often true...and lamentable. But church history among Catholics is based to a large extent on myth, legend, and revisionism, not real history. So is that any better?

 

[xTx]

We don't study the Bible during Holy Mass, but almost everything we say and do during Mass has its roots in sacred Scripture. Nor does the magisterium of the Catholic Church discourage the faithful from reading the Bible on their own for the sake of their spiritual growth. Meanwhile, I'm never stuck for a reply as you often are.

100% agreed. Once I went up to the Monsignor and asked him something, his reply was - you better come and join the bible study class.

Albion, I think you should experience Catholicism as it is today for yourself.

You seem to be in a time warp; you have a vision of the Catholic church that I have never heard of.

 

[xTx]

Hanging a Rosary in a car or touching a picture of Mary becomes a superstitious practice only if Catholics believe these religious relics possess magical powers.

100% concur - that was the point that was being made.

The address was addressed to people who think possession of religious relics will repel evil.

It is a heart of prayer that will repel evil.

 

[Albion]

Hanging a Rosary in a car or touching a picture of Mary becomes a superstitious practice only if Catholics believe these religious relics possess magical powers.

That's safe to say, of course, and it applies to people of any religious persuasion.

Unfortunately, it's the case that many Catholics DO think of the rosary in that way. They're the ones we're considering in this thread, not that ones that see the rosary as only a counting device (if you know any such people).

By the way, there are whole Catholic sodalities that exist to promote the practice of hanging a rosary on car mirrors, and the Church does not oppose that.

 

[xTx]

not that ones that see the rosary as only a counting device (if you know any such people).

The rosary helps you count the number of Our Fathers, Hail Marys so you don't lose count.

By the way, there are whole Catholic sodalities that exist to promote the practice of hanging a rosary on car mirrors, and the Church does not oppose that.

Never heard of them.

Anyway, the church did tell me strictly that if you hung rosaries to repel evil - if you have that in mind - you should not hang the rosary.

In other words, the church did say it is wrong to hang rosaries to repel evil.

Evil is repelled by your faith in God and your prayers etc.

Albion - please go get updated on the Catholic Church - your ideas are way off track.