If this was all there was to it, then I could understand why you don't understand....I will try and answer more fully in my reply to Rhamiel which will cover your questions...thanks.
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I do not understand how asking someone to intercede for you can be considered a 'snare'.
How are the words 'trap' & 'asking someone to pray for you' connected?
If I asked you to pray for me, am I creating a trap?
Or is the action of my asking someone to pray for me an act to trap observers?
I do not understand the question.
Hi...thanks for your reply. Yes of course I also realise this is the case with many people, and that some of us who do not follow the Catholic tradition are apt to see something wrong and think that is what the Catholic Body teaches and the rest subscribe to...the point that Palinden Vader emphasized.
That is also true. However my concern involved several posts of obviously educated people in these Forums, that seemed to be pushing an agenda to elevate Mary to something that is inconsistant with the Bible.
To clarify....If we as Believers understand something of the nature, character and glory of G-d that permeates through Scripture, we would be especially careful not to attempt to encroach upon this...and Isaiah is very clear in chapters 40 through to 48 in extolling how far above all things G-d is, so much so that nothing comes close to comparison...it would be like trying to compare a grain of sand to a planet, and even then such a comparison would not express just how far above our understanding G-d actually is.
When you start ascribing things (virtues, graces etc) to a created being that have a direct connection to the awesome attributes of G-d Himself, then according to Isaiah a line has been crossed...or as Romans sort of puts it, a created entity is getting the sort of response that only belongs to G-d.
Personally I don't think any of this has anything to do with Mary at all, but is largely down to teachings that stray into assumptions, and may be responsible for making some people believe things that just aren't right.
I think you are worried about a problem that is almost non-existant. It is much more common to see people failing to give Mary her proper place or to fail to realize the importance of the communion of saints.
Zeek
since you criticized what you view as over stepping the bounds of devotion...
what would you recommend for Catholics as to how far devotion should go?
this is your thread...
it seems unfair to condemn without offering a positive alternative
I think you are worried about a problem that is almost non-existant. It is much more common to see people failing to give Mary her proper place or to fail to realize the importance of the communion of saints.
With all due respect that is another issue....Mary's proper place would obviously be seen within the interaction of the Apostles in their writings, expecially if it was so vital.
My point stands that what I saw and wrote about at the start of this thread is not right and goes too far....therefore it is dangerous, especially for those that get drawn into this sort of religious bondage that detracts from the simplicity of the Gospel.
In answer xTx...the 'trap' or the 'snare' is found within the Catholic portrayal of Mary and the insistence by some that devotion to her in various forms is an integral part of salvation.
I think many Catholics misunderstand devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary as being optional
particular expressions of this devotion are optional
but on the Cross, the apex of Salvation History, does Christ draw attention to Himself?
Jesus does not say to John "behold Me"
He says "behold your Mother"
and John, in the book of Revelation, 12:17, shows that all those who follow the commands of God are to be counted as the children of Mary
I think it is all a matter of perspective.
You have your point of view and others have their own point of view.
At the end of the day, we all want one thing, heaven.
That is my perspective
Hope you have been having a smooth space ride on space ship Earth.
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
you look at the lives of the Saints with the deepest devotion to Mary and you also see the Saints with the deepest devotion to Christ
so as much people here "warn" about devotion to Mary..... I do not see cause for concern
I strongly suggested that SCIM went waaaay too far and moved from what is acceptable into what isn't....in as far as it looks to me as if it is idolatry, especially when Mary is venerated to such an extent that the edges blur and for many it must be difficult to know where to draw the line.
I have no problem with certain traditions that any Christians might find useful or faith building, as long as they do not contradict what has already been revealed...
It just might be that Marian traditions in Christendom contradict only what you think you understand has been revealed in Scripture. Your understanding of divine revelation according to your private interpretation of Scripture or religious persuasion might not be as clear as you think it is, and so you may see contradictions that aren't really there, but rather appear to exist.
PAX
I have been around long enough to know when something looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it is probably a duck....and a number of Catholics have expressed that they have seen others going too far in devotion to Mary...therefore, even though I am not a Catholic, and do not share the majority of your traditions I am reassured that what I have been disturbed about has a degree of traction among some Catholics.
I don't have a 'private interpretation of Scripture', and with a bit of application and the Holy Spirit working in us, most of Scripture is quite clear and means exactly what it says....but it often takes man made theology and poor traditions to obscure the clarity of G-ds words.
When I look at some peoples quotes, especially those that like the writings of Louis de Montfort, it forces me to read excerpts from his books and without a shadow of a doubt he tries to elevate Mary to a position almost equal to G-d....
If you don't believe me I will supply half a dozen quotes that make Mary an integral part of salvation in a way that not only isn't found in Scripture, but actually works against what has been revealed....
I know where the line is. Everything that God is by nature, Mary is by grace.
I have not went "waaay too far." Perhaps for your own personal tastes, but not according to the teaching of the Church. I have founded my views on the bedrock of magisterial teaching, and the words and examples of the greatest Doctors of the Church and holy saints.
Yours in Jesus and Mary,
Mary's Bhoy.
We are in GT. So, we are allowed to be blunt.
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Devotions to Mary are NOT required in any way for salvation.
To believe that Mary is a current participant in salvation is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches. We are confusing things by stating the obvious importance of Mary's "yes" in the story of salvation. This does not imply that adoration of Mary is acceptable. This does not imply that devotions are required.
Perhaps we need to be clear what is meant by the word "salvation". We are discussing what is often called "justification", making a sinner right with God. Mary CANNOT do this. Only Jesus can do this.
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When a Protestant sees Catholics saying that Mary is currently part of salvation and that devotions to her are needed for salvation, they RIGHTLY conclude that what is being taught is ANOTHER gospel. As we all understand, Saint Paul warned us against those who would teach another gospel.
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Perhaps Protestants go a bit overboard when they teach that we are saved
By GRACE alone
through FAITH alone
in CHRIST JESUS alone.
Most of understand that faith is not enough. We can have faith and yet reject Jesus later in our lives. Salvation is not a one time act. But OSAS is another discussion.
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My BOTTOM LINE is that salvation is all about Jesus and our relationship to Him.
And even if we do not accept Jesus, He might still (in His Divine Mercy) choose us for heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that Jews and other non-Christians can indeed by saved by Jesus.
What is NOT acceptable within orthodox Christianity is the requirement that anyone other than Jesus is required for salvation.
And yes, I do believe that Jesus might indeed choose to save those individuals who accept this false gospel. HOWEVER, Saint Paul is clear that the teaching of a false gospel may very well damn an individual. Leading folks astray is a serious matter.
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I saw my mother-in-law die before my eyes putting her faith in Mary. Days before she died I asked her if Mary can save her and she actually said yes. Then in her dying moments, my father-in-law pushed me in front of her to pray for her as she was dying before our eyes. I simply prayed out loud in front of everyone that she would put her faith in Jesus, and ONLY JESUS. There was protesting in the background "wala na Maria? wala na Maria?", which is Filipino language for "No Mary?? No Marry??". You see how deceived they all are. It is sad. You see how the devil uses that poison to add something to Jesus.[bless and do not curse]
That is a disturbing quote...Read this from a post I saw on another christian forum
Thank you for that. Yes a false gospel will send some on to Hell (Mormins and Jehovahs Witnesses will be going to 'the lake of fire sadly). Also Protestants atleast I believe can reject Jesus and if we do we are lost. I dont believe sacraments can merit us grace or that commit a sin Makes us in a state where we have to confess to a priest or we will go to hell. Once your born again your a new creature, the inncurruptable seed in us cannot be taken away by stumbling.
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