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The snare of devotion to Mary.

mark46

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I agree with all you posted.

The importance of co- as honorary is certainly been missing in a lot of this discussion.



The rationale for me using Rome as an example was to try and explain the usage of "co-" since both the Roman Emperors and the Magisterium of the Papacy used Latin, meaning similar linguistic setting can explain things better within the context of things.




I think it is important to attach the "co-" prefix when attributing most of these titles to Theotokos. After all it is not through her merit that she is capable of doing anything, but rather through her Son. Even then, the vast majority of these titles are really honorary (another reason why dogmatising them would be meaningless) thus should not take attention away from Christ.
 
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WisdomTree

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I just realised that this thread is under a subsection of General Theology. Where as most tend to spam either General Theology or Christian Apologetics for any kinds of theological disputes or differences, this thread is actually in an appropriate section of this Forum.

Kudos to you, OP!
 
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Zeek

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I just realised that this thread is under a subsection of General Theology. Where as most tend to spam either General Theology or Christian Apologetics for any kinds of theological disputes or differences, this thread is actually in an appropriate section of this Forum.

Kudos to you, OP!

Thanks for that WT...I am getting the hang of CF and try to tailor my input to conform to the rules (after a fair few bans I might add).

Just want to thank everyone for their input so far, I think this has been the most instructive thread I have ever been involved in...many of you will know that my main concerns have usually focused around Israel...but I have had forays in the past into Orthodoxy and Catholicism in an effort to thrash out some legitimate concerns, and to get better understanding of things that are unfamiliar.

What has most impressed me so far is the honesty many of you have displayed in exposing what you really think, even when it is contradictory...this doesn't phase me, it actually helps me understand things better, and to see that within the umbrella of Catholicism, there is far greater diversity that I ever anticipated.

I am glad that some of you can see that I also have some valid worries that effect us all as Christians if we can just break down the Protestant/Catholic wall of partition that we so easily erect.
 
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WisdomTree

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Thanks for that WT...I am getting the hang of CF and try to tailor my input to conform to the rules (after a fair few bans I might add).

No problem. I just thought it necessary to give credit where it is due since so many have failed to do this very basic thing (also, welcome if you are that new).


Just want to thank everyone for their input so far, I think this has been the most instructive thread I have ever been involved in...many of you will know that my main concerns have usually focused around Israel...but I have had forays in the past into Orthodoxy and Catholicism in an effort to thrash out some legitimate concerns, and to get better understanding of things that are unfamiliar.

Of course, this how most if not all thread should go. Obviously, not everyone can agree to everything, it should be civilised and also informative as possible for those who are not too familiar with the topic at hand.

What has most impressed me so far is the honesty many of you have displayed in exposing what you really think, even when it is contradictory...this doesn't phase me, it actually helps me understand things better, and to see that within the umbrella of Catholicism, there is far greater diversity that I ever anticipated.

Whenever you put more than one person together, you are bound to have disagreements or differences in opinions and what not, resulting in diversities. It is no different within Catholicism. However, it is worth noting that though the Holy See allows for diversity and even dissenting opinions, it is very strict when it comes to dogma. She does not tolerate heresies which serves to deceive her precious flock thus will not hesitate to hand out excommunications and anathemas like candy should the need arise.

I am glad that some of you can see that I also have some valid worries that effect us all as Christians if we can just break down the Protestant/Catholic wall of partition that we so easily erect.

Even before I became a Catholic, I was always a proponent of Ecumenism thus when the Holy Father called for Ecumenical Spirit, I wholeheartidly agreed with his notions. Don't mistake this for some kind of immediate unity nor making of compromises for the sake of ecumenism. Though the division of the Church is a sad state of affairs, there can be no compromise if such a thing results in abandoning in what we believe to be essential and this applies to Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, and Reformed. Granted, it would be ideal if we could find a mutual agreement of some sort, but it cannot degrade the Christian faith into some kind of relativistic false religion. As such, a friendly dialogue between those in disagreement is what we will get the most out of. Will this mean that there will still be divisions and sometimes strife between differing parties? Yup. However, as we progress through our dialogues, we can expect greater co-operation when it comes to practicing the Christian faith and the eventual breakdown of this arbitrary wall which causes suspicions between who ought to be brothers in faith.
 
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Rhamiel

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That being said, I PERSONALLY believe that millions, if not billions, have stayed away or left the Church or have become lapsed members because of the need the Church has had for the dogmatizing its views on Mary.

It is my personal view that millions of Calvinists, Lutherans, and Orthodox would be part of the Church. It is my view that many of the lapsed would be re-evangelized.

this is victim blaming
this sounds like the justifications of a battered housewife
"if I didn't burn the roast he wouldn't have beaten me"

The Reformation happened because willful and sinful men did not want to trust in the Church that God gave them but rather chase after the vain doctrines dreamt up in their own imaginations
 
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bbbbbbb

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Marian devotion does not elevate the Ever Virgin Mary in status, but rather to give credit and show how glorious Christ is. Everything the Catholic Church do in regards to devotions and venerations it is to show the glory of Christ.

So, precisely how does the title "Ever Virgin" as applied to Mary show the glory of Christ?
 
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Rhamiel

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So, precisely how does the title "Ever Virgin" as applied to Mary show the glory of Christ?

this is to show the OT idea of Sacredness

you do not see people throwing a table cloth over the Ark of the Covenant and using it as a table to eat lunch and play cards on
... or whatever the ancient Hebrews had instead of cards... like dominos?
or dice maybe?

anyways, I digress

we can see this clearly in the death of King Balthazar
he used vessels taken from the temple for a party
and God killed him

when something is used by God, it becomes special, set aside, not for every day use
we can see this theme through out the OT
 
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ChesterKhan

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So, precisely how does the title "Ever Virgin" as applied to Mary show the glory of Christ?

If I used my Bible as a doorstop, or my heirloom Bible that I never read to stand on to reach a higher place, would that not be disrespectful to such a sacred thing?

Sacred things are used only to the glory of God. While it is an offense against reason and literature to use a book as a doorstop, it is also an offense against God when the Bible would be used that way.

So it is, that when the ancients would consecrate themselves to God, they would remain virgins for Him. Have you never heard of all the virgins whom the Romans tried to soil? Was there nothing special about their calling?

So, the Virgin Mary was called in a very special way to serve God - to give Him human form and likeness. What a blessing! What a call! How could you give yourself to a man after receiving such a call from God?
 
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Mary's Bhoy

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For me personally, although I must accept differently, NO dogma has been added since 787.

As an aside Saint John Damascene, Saint Germanus of Constantinople and Saint Andrew of Crete all wrote prior to 787 and every one of them wrote of the Blessed Virgin as mediatrix of all graces. Of course there is an even graver issue at work here by your nonsensical and un-Catholic belief that no dogma has been defined after 787, but the doctrines of the Our Lady as mediatrix of all grace and co-redemptrix extend well into the Early Church.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.
 
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Mary's Bhoy

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SCIM, your style can be rather polarizing

maybe you could explain things a bit more?

I have already posted a link to an excellent book that explains it all better than I. The book is freely available on Google Books and can be viewed by anyone. Every pope for the last 300 years has taught that Mary is Mediatrix of All Graces, it's a part of their ordinary magisterium. Countless saints have argued the same, Doctors of the Church amongst them, and it stretches back all the way to the Early Church. Honestly, the article explaining Our Lady's mediation in the link provided earlier in this thread is not very time-consuming and is an excellent explanation from a theologian of the Church.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.
 
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ChesterKhan

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SCIM, your style can be rather polarizing

maybe you could explain things a bit more?

tumblr_n4meflOQAy1rhavdko1_500.gif
 
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Zeek

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I think SCIM might be being a bit overzealous in Marian devotion, and I agree somewhat with the OP. The Marian dogmas, however, do exist for the glorification of Jesus. And not to perceive their truth is to not fully appreciate the splendour of Our Saviour.

What concerns me most is the seamless transition from devotion to Mary that goes into worship of Mary...I think I can get my head around how Catholics claim to venerate Mary and use their focus on her to get a better understanding of the L-rd...even if I don't agree.

But what I saw and recorded in my opening thread included elevating Mary to such a degree that this 'devotion' has moved into the area of idolatry because now Mary is participating in the glory of G-d in the mind and heart of the devotee.

I said: "This is 100% idolatry, this is 'adding to the Gospel, this is teaching something that is not of G-d, I'd even go so far as to say this works in opposition to the truth and will bring a snare, a burden and condemnation to the person that embraces this sort of teaching."

I know they were strong words, but in light of the many replies surely this is what is happening, and what people have witnessed in this Forum, but have perhaps been reticent to voice.

But a faith that lacks the sacraments, lacks the full Bible, lacks the saints and Mary, lacks Tradition, is shallower - much shallower - than it ought to be.

I know, I have gone through this thing in the past of how unless you do things the Catholic way you only have part of the picture and will never understand the fulness of your salvation....not something I agree with, but that is for another discussion which I am always happy to have sometime.
Zeek, I do not doubt you love Our Saviour, and are obedient to Him. Have you considered, perhaps, that He is calling you to more? Yes, even than Himself. For He made a whole world, too. And He made it "good". And every piece of it shines with His goodness.

I have been a Believer for 40 years, I have been secure in my calling and never faltered in my faith. These Boards have given me further opportunity to explore past the borders of my own understanding and experience of our Saviour. Sometime I have been really pleasantly surprised and had to reassess some things I took for granted, and at other times I have been disappointed or as in this case 'shocked' and wanted to understand why it takes someone like me who is not Catholic to point out something that I think is glaringly obvious, but effects all of us as Believers.
 
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Zeek

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If we cross over to Jesus Christ our Saviour in Judgement and have not been Loving, reverant, respectful and hold a belief in our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, how does one "think" our Heavenly Father who art in Heaven will "feel" in His Sacred Heart about comments dismissing any focus, thought or feeling in our Hearts of God The Most High's Blessed Virgin Mary "God's Favoured One" - (Our Lady of Sorrows of Whom suffered greatly during Jesus Christ our Saviour's bitter Passion and Stations of His Cross) and Jesus Christ our Saviour's Heavenly Mother?

I say this to those of whom make comments of dismissal in relation to our Heavenly Mother Mary - for your own soul good eternally.

Personally I see this as 'adding to the word of G-d'....all Christians believe in Mary as the mother of the L-rd and acknowledge how G-d chose her from among all women, and know that she was 'blessed'...but she has no role in our salvation which relies solely on the cleansing blood of the Lamb.
 
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PaladinValer

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Watching this is interesting...

We have two views that are based on the same false idea: of how papal infallibility even works.

The only correct views are those that remind us that popes are only infallible, according to official Vatican Catholic dogma, when speaking ex cathedra, and even if we take into account the listed retroactive announcements (which is highly disputable) and add them to the two since Vatican I, we find no place where any pope has spoken from the chair on the issue at hand.

Popes can have their own personal opinions without them being defining. They can even be, and have been, corrected by later ones. It isn't a big deal insofar as they don't violate dogma, as even doctrine may be altered.

I believe both posters need to allow those Vatican Catholics and non-Vatican Catholics whose posts do reflect the truth the room to educate them. If they receive it, excellent. If not, then the problem perpetuates.
 
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Mary's Bhoy

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But what I saw and recorded in my opening thread included elevating Mary to such a degree that this 'devotion' has moved into the area of idolatry because now Mary is participating in the glory of G-d in the mind and heart of the devotee.

This is exactly what is happening. The Blessed Virgin Mary does participate in the glory of God because God has willed it to be so. It is not unique to her, although her own participation is a unique expression of that relationship. Every human being is called to the participation of God's glory, that is the very nature of sanctifying grace. And Our Lady, who is full of grace, is pre-eminent in that participation. She occupies a unique and singular role in the life of God because she is intimately entwined with the eternal predestination of the Man-God, Jesus Christ. She shares in that predestination. Because without Mary then there is no Jesus. It was by Mary and through Mary that He came into the world, it is by Mary and through Mary that our redemption is wrought.

I profess with every fibre of my being that Christ is the sole mediator between Man and God and that it is by the merits won by His redeeming sacrifice that we are saved. And furthermore that the Blessed Virgin was intimately united with His mission, in the manner of the co-redemptrix. It's not that she was or is equal to Him, that is obviously an impossibility. It is that she lives a role in subordination to His threefold ministry. Or rather it's that Christ's threefold ministry encapsulates the role of His Mother. And by her co-redemptive act, by her participation in the work of Christ, as we are all called to participate, her pre-eminent participation has won for her the role of mediatrix of grace.

Jesus lives for Mary, and Mary lives for Jesus. It is for Mary that He became Incarnate. It was His love for her, above all else, that He wished to become Man. His sacrifice on the Cross was above all else the payment for the privileges and graces that He had showered her with in her Immaculate Conception. His love for her is unique, singular, and all consuming.

And He wants us to love her too. He wants us to share in that love. And it is her duty, her role, to prepare the souls of her spiritual children that they may be in coformity with Christ, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.
 
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Mary's Bhoy

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From what I have read and seen there are good Popes and bad Popes and some of them as fallible human beings have said some outlandish things at times and behaved in an unseemly fashion.

This statement by Pius X is fairly vague IMO, I think any Believer; myself included, has no problem with the connection between Mary and Jesus and that Mary played a pivotal role through her care and nurture of the L-rd, especially in those most vulnerable years of His childhood.

However trying to force a connection that has salvic overtones between knowing the L-rd and knowing His mother strays from any biblical text or known legitimate early tradition.

Pope Saint Pius X is one of the most widely revered popes of modern times. But even then my position is not rested solely upon this saintly pope. Every pope for the past three centuries has taught these positions as a part of their ordinary magisterium. The Second Vatican Council also taught these doctrines. There is no real wiggle room. This is the teaching of the Church. You don't have to accept it. But Catholics do.

Now you say that this is all unkown in early tradition. Yet it goes back to the very earliest days of the Church as Saint Justin (165) was the first to introduce the doctrine of Mary as the New Eve and her cooperative work with the New Adam. Saint Ignatius (110) spoke of Mary's participation in God's plan in revealing Jesus to us. Saint Irenaeus of Lyons (202) was already speaking of Mary's mediatory role as the New Eve. Origen (254) and pseudo-Origen were speaking of Our Lady as mediatrix. Saint Ephraem (373) said of Mary that "the human race ... depends upon your patronage and has you alone as its refuge and defense ... your prayer, in fact, is powerful with your Son." And as I've already mentioned in this thread, the Patristic sources for this doctrine reached their height in Saints Germanus of Constantinople (733), Andrew of Crete (740) and John Damascene (749). It is entirely grounded and anchored in early tradition.

However trying to force a connection that has salvic overtones between knowing the L-rd and knowing His mother strays from any biblical text or known legitimate early tradition.

When as a young man G-d revealed Himself to me through Jesus, there was never any added input concerning Mary, or the necessity to acknowledge her part in my salvation, and as I read John chapters 14 through to 16 I see nothing that even hints at this possibility as the function of the Holy Spirit is to reveal G-d to us through Jesus...not to reveal Mary to us in any shape or form.

Of course...I am totally orthodox in my beliefs.

And this is where you are fundamentally wrong.

First of all on the matter of Scripture I ask you, do you believe in the Most Holy Trinity? Yet the Trinity is never expressed in Scripture in those words. The doctrine of the Trinity is implicitly contained in Scripture. If you do not find explicit words in Scripture as to Mary's role, then I tell you that you cannot have the Trinity eiither because nowhere is it ever said "God is a triune God, one God in three divine persons." That Christ is "consubstantial with the Father" is never found in Scripture, yet it is in the Nicene Creed which is the universal mark of Christian orthodoxy. That the Holy Ghost is God is never explicitly mentioned in Scripture. We are told the Word is God. Where does it say the Holy Ghost is God? You are already relying upon implicit truths contained in Scripture as handed down to you by the early Church. Our Lady's role in our salvation is also implicitly contained in Scripture and in the doctrine of the Early Church (see above).

And the foundations for role of Mary in our salvation is that she is the Mother of God, as revealed in Scripture and proclaimed joyfully by the early Church. It is that she is Mother that she is co-redemptrix and mediatrix. It is because she is Mother that she is integral to our salvation, both in a general and particular sense.

You say that when you first encountered Jesus that there was never any added input concerning Mary. Don't you see how ridiculous that is? The very existence of Jesus presupposes Mary. You would never have known Jesus without Mary because there would have been no Incarnation. No Mary, no Jesus. Because this is God's will. He chose to enter the world and engage men through the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The very existence of Jesus presupposes Mary.

It is by Mary that God has revealed Himself to man, it is by Mary that He has become Man, taking the the form of a servant and slave, chaining Himself in loving bondage in the womb of the Ever-Virgin Theotokos.

Everything in the New Testament, the very Gospel itsef, would be nothing without Mary. It wouldn't exist. This is the general participation of Mary in your salvation. But there is also a particular participation in the life of each unique soul. Because she is co-redemptrix, she has participated in the redemptive act of Christ. And it is again through Mary that Christ dispenses the merits and graces of His sacrifice. Mary didn't win those merits, of course. That would be impossible. She is a creature, which is to say, she is nothing before God. Nothing by nature. But she is everything by grace, because it is the grace of God that is made her what she is. God doesn't change His mind. He has revealed Himself to us through Mary, and it is through Mary that He continues to engage us.

Everything that God is by nature, Mary is by grace.

Well if that is truly the case let me spell it out for you.

I know many Catholics that love Mary, believe she intercedes for them etc, but never really express the degree of emphasis you place upon Mary, and would never sign off, 'Yours in Jesus and Mary'. Which seems to signify what I see in your content as a deliberate attempt to raise Mary's profile and to get people focusing on her far more than they are inclined to do, should do or are required to do. (and I'm talking about your fellow Catholics).

My sign off is an act of my own personal expression of devotion. It is not unique and it has a long tradition in Catholicism. But the truth contained in those words are truths that every Catholic must accept. The Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus are inseperable. They beat as one. Not in nature, but in grace. Mary lives for Jesus, and Jesus lives for Mary. There is no conflict between them. They are not equal, Our Lady is subordinate to her Son, that goes without saying. But Christ has united Himself firmly to her, and we cannot participate in the life of Christ outwith the life of His Mother.

In Jewish tradition a boy is considered a man between the ages of 12-13,
and finished formal education around 15-16, so it is possible that when Jesus died and rose again, John was around 15-16 years old or 18-19...my point was that as Jesus was dying He formally enjoined John and His mother...which is fairly momentous in itself...the Son of G-d commending John to receive as his mother the very woman who had carried the divine Son within her womb.

Actually I am not free to believe whatever I want to believe, I am compelled to always seek that which is true, and be obedient from the heart to the truth....Scripture always means exectly what it says.

As long as you maintain a sola scriptura position, then your house wil be built on sand.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.
 
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Galilee63

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Our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God says at 12:20:

"Further My Children, do not think that praying to Jesus My Son your Saviour through Me as Your Heavenly Mother, My Children, is detrimental in coming closer to My Son Jesus of Whom is your Just Judge My Children in His Mercy, for those whom turn to My Son Jesus with repentance from hearts in genuine remorse, focussing on His bitter Passion, Stations of His Cross, His Agonies and Sorrows My Children".

"That is all".

My Post:

God The Most High deemed our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God "Rejoice so Highly Favoured", "My Highly Favoured one", "The Holy Spirit will come upon You", and The Power of The Most High will cover You with His Shadow and so The Child will be Holy and will be called Son of God".

Mary (our Blessed Virgin Mary) replied:

"I am the Handmaid of The Lord" - this is God The Most High of which our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God makes reference.

"Let what You have said be done to Me" - said our Lady Mary.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour
 
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Rhamiel

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This is exactly what is happening. The Blessed Virgin Mary does participate in the glory of God because God has willed it to be so. It is not unique to her
I did not really understand some of the problems between Catholics and Protestants

Veneration of Mary
Veneration of the Saints
the false claim that Catholicism is a "works based religion"

all kind of center around this idea
the idea that we participate in the work of Christ, being close to Him, joining everything we have to Him

I profess with every fibre of my being that Christ is the sole mediator between Man and God and that it is by the merits won by His redeeming sacrifice that we are saved. And furthermore that the Blessed Virgin was intimately united with His mission, in the manner of the co-redemptrix. It's not that she was or is equal to Him, that is obviously an impossibility.

well said
 
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Rhamiel

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Watching this is interesting...

We have two views that are based on the same false idea: of how papal infallibility even works.

The only correct views are those that remind us that popes are only infallible, according to official Vatican Catholic dogma, when speaking ex cathedra, and even if we take into account the listed retroactive announcements (which is highly disputable) and add them to the two since Vatican I, we find no place where any pope has spoken from the chair on the issue at hand.

Popes can have their own personal opinions without them being defining. They can even be, and have been, corrected by later ones. It isn't a big deal insofar as they don't violate dogma, as even doctrine may be altered.

I believe both posters need to allow those Vatican Catholics and non-Vatican Catholics whose posts do reflect the truth the room to educate them. If they receive it, excellent. If not, then the problem perpetuates.


there is also the declarations by the Church Councils and the Ordinary Teaching of the Magisterium that is also Infallible
 
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