The snare of devotion to Mary.

We don't have because such a commandment or direction would be frequently misused by false prophets - especially if it would be a written one:

bbbbbbb said:

We have no such commandment or direction from God allowing any human the impossible task of serving as a postmaster of prayers to God.

Click to expand...

Bill, do you pray to Jesus/God 24/7, I think not, I imagine you communicate with your earthly family and friends, the only difference is, Catholics also communicate with our heavenly family. Jesus our Spiritual Brother, God the Father and Blessed Mary our Spiritual Mother. Mary is the Mother of our Lord/ God, Mary is not a part of the Holy Trinity just the Holy Family.Trust me; if we thought Mary were a godess, we'd let you know.

Finally, why do some people behave as though they think that loving, honoring, and appealing to Mary to pray for us "takes away" from Jesus? Are we given 16 oz of love or something, some finite amount we must very carefully use lest we run out? When we love Christ, does that prevent us from loving each other? No! Love is infinite because God, Who is Love, is infinite! We can love and adore Jesus, love and venerate Mary, love the other Saints, and love each other without depriving anyone (or Anyone) of anything. How many children can you have without running out of love? How many friends? What we "spend" in love is replaced many times over; love for Christ can only bring the fruits of more love to give.

To love Mary takes nothing at all from Christ, but honors our Blessed Lord by Whose grace she is who she is: His greatest creation, the greatest of Saints

bbbbbbb said:

Moses did so at God's direct commandment. We have no such commandment or direction from God allowing any human the impossible task of serving as a postmaster of prayers to God.

Click to expand...

we have a lot in the OT of God showing favor to people not because of their merit but because of the faithfulness of others

the tribes not being wiped out because of Moses interceding for them

Solomon not having bad things happen in his reign even though he allowed idols, not because of Solomon but because of David his father

it does not say if it had any good effects, but Job was described as pious and wise and he offered sacrifices for his children who lived worldly lives

we also have prophets being sent by God to speak on His behalf and give messages to people

so intercession for others and messages from God are both biblical

with the exception of Jesus Christ our Saviour, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God through His chosen Saints, priests, nuns/sisters, Catholic Children, Catholic Adults, some Christians and others Bbbbbbb-documented throughout the centuries and witnessed by many other theologians, priests and Archbishops in Testimonies prior to the year 1214 and 1260 with Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God appearing to people.

So MANY - however people need to take off their blinders, open their hearts to Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit, pray the prayers that Jesus Himself has delivered to mankind (including Jesus' Holy request to many of His priests for mankind to pray to The Blessed Virgin Mary His Mother Her Holy Rosary) and Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's "Divine Mercy Chaplet" for Salvation (ie to receive His Divine Mercy at the hour of death from Jesus as "the unfathomable Divine Mercy) as Jesus has indeed stated to mankind.

We all have free will and choice Bbbbbb - and are in the last days - as Jesus Christ our Saviour stated to mankind within His Divine Mercy and as God The Most High has shown us through Ezra in His Holy Word/Scriptures and Revelations through by Jesus and His Disciples. (The Last part of the Three Thousand Years).

Before Jesus appears here on earth soon.

All of these Prayers contain Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Holy Word within each, with The Sign of The Cross - In the Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit, Amen at the beginning with The Our Father, The Hail Mary's included.

Within Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet that Jesus delivered to the world in the 1930's and The Holy Rosary delivered to the world by Jesus Christ our Saviour and The Blessed Virgin Mary in 1208, 1214 and 1260 to priests and Archbishops including many other prayers to the Saints of whom were priests, Archbishops and Bishops.

My heart worries for peoples souls of whom have gone up against Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Holy Divine Mercy Chaplet, Holy Rosary however most importantly, doubting Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary and His Loving Holy appearances to His Saints with witnesses at the time, and our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy appearances "always" with Jesus Himself, delivering God The Most High's Holy Prayers.

divinemercy.com

divinemercy.org

Love and kindest wishes your Sisters in Jesus Christ our Saviour

Galilee63 said:

with the exception of Jesus Christ our Saviour, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God through His chosen Saints, priests, nuns/sisters, Catholic Children, Catholic Adults, some Christians and others Bbbbbbb-documented throughout the centuries and witnessed by many other theologians, priests and Archbishops in Testimonies prior to the year 1214 and 1260 with Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God appearing to people.

So MANY - however people need to take off their blinders, open their hearts to Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit, pray the prayers that Jesus Himself has delivered to mankind (including Jesus' Holy request to many of His priests for mankind to pray to The Blessed Virgin Mary His Mother Her Holy Rosary) and Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's "Divine Mercy Chaplet" for Salvation (ie to receive His Divine Mercy at the hour of death from Jesus as "the unfathomable Divine Mercy) as Jesus has indeed stated to mankind.

We all have free will and choice Bbbbbb - and are in the last days - as Jesus Christ our Saviour stated to mankind within His Divine Mercy and as God The Most High has shown us through Ezra in His Holy Word/Scriptures and Revelations through by Jesus and His Disciples. (The Last part of the Three Thousand Years).

Before Jesus appears here on earth soon.

All of these Prayers contain Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Holy Word within each, with The Sign of The Cross - In the Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit, Amen at the beginning with The Our Father, The Hail Mary's included.

Within Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet that Jesus delivered to the world in the 1930's and The Holy Rosary delivered to the world by Jesus Christ our Saviour and The Blessed Virgin Mary in 1208, 1214 and 1260 to priests and Archbishops including many other prayers to the Saints of whom were priests, Archbishops and Bishops.

My heart worries for peoples souls of whom have gone up against Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Holy Divine Mercy Chaplet, Holy Rosary however most importantly, doubting Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary and His Loving Holy appearances to His Saints with witnesses at the time, and our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy appearances "always" with Jesus Himself, delivering God The Most High's Holy Prayers.

divinemercy.com

divinemercy.org

Love and kindest wishes your Sisters in Jesus Christ our Saviour

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You are free to believe that we are in the last days even though the Church warns against such nonsense. You are free to believe in as many apparitions as you wish. The Church does not require that we believe in ANY apparitions, not even the few accepted by the Church. And yes, you are free to believe that certain devotions and prayers were personally delivered by Jesus or Mary and that they are essential for our salvation or our proper spiritual path. Again please note the Church requires no such belief.

Let's be clear. Lots of folks believe as you do. IMHO, there have been people think that we were in the last days since Saint Paul and in almost every couple of centuries since. Did we leave absolutely nothing from the predictions of the end in 2000, or of at least of major calamities on the fateful day the calendars turned to a new century.

Only the Father knows when Jesus will come again. that is teaching of Scripture; that is the teaching of the Church.

bbbbbbb said:

Moses did so at God's direct commandment. We have no such commandment or direction from God allowing any human the impossible task of serving as a postmaster of prayers to God.

Click to expand...

Are you sure this is a matter of being a "post master" ?

It's a request for another to pray ... to join one's prayer.

I do think the matter of the body of Christ (Paul) and praying for one another are well established.

And requesting the prayers of the (deceased) Rachel was already well established in Judaism by the time of Christ.

Dear Mark,

God The Most High in His Holy Will gave mankind (through His Apostles) His Holy ways, Love, Guidance, His Wisdom and Enlightenment for mankind to "Live" here on earth "His Commandments" and "His Holy Ways" including bringing Jesus down from Heaven to Earth spreading His Holy Scriptures, Commandments, His Teachings, establishing His New Covenant and New Testament of which includes many Roman Catholic Teachings from Saint Peter and Jesus' other Disciples and from the Early Church Fathers of whom many had received Jesus appearing to them and delivering His Prayers and Holy Decrees.

For instance, Jesus appeared to Saint Dominic and the Blessed Alan De La Roche among many other priests now declared as Saints with writings dictated by Jesus Christ our Saviour - most importantly the Prayers that were delivered by Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God for our "soul good eternally". It is entirely of course one's own "earthly will" if one chooses to ignore Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Holy Prayers and Holy messages through priests/Saints/Nuns/Catholic Children/Catholic Religious for our own soul good eternally. I chose not to ignore Jesus Christ our Saviour's Holy calls to pray to Him His Divine Mercy Chaplet daily for many years nor did I choose to ignore The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy call to lead me back to Her Son Jesus Christ my Saviour.

Just as you make choices in your life and relationship with Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit Mark.

...and the rewards from Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit are 'indescribable', words cannot ever adequately express the Love and Gratitude I have for Jesus Christ, God The Most High, The Holy Spirit and my Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God.

I have undertaken everything my Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God has guided me with over past years, of which, with love and trust in my heart for Jesus, while focussing on Jesus Himself, His Life, His bitter Passion and His Sorrowful Stations of His Cross, as guided by my Most Loving and Holy Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, not only led me back to Her Son Jesus, my Heavenly Mother Mary commenced speaking to my heart and Jesus commenced speaking to my heart. Then "God The Most High" occasionally speaks to my heart with His Loving Holy Wisdom, Guidance and Enlightenment delivering His Holy messages of which are documented. These will only be released when Jesus Christ my Saviour/God has requested their release.

I have already responded to you out of politeness and within CF rules Mark and my response on OBOB a couple of months ago was: "I have a Catholic Spiritual Director" which is in obedience to my Roman Catholic Church and Her Teachings/Encyclicals.

As an aside to this, two ArchBishops of whom "Love Jesus and His Divine Mercy" strongly encourage me to spread "Jesus' Divine Mercy" and of course The Holy Rosary of my Blessed Virgin Mary's as far and wide as possible Mark; Jesus' Love and Mercy for us all (regardless of denominations) can be received by us all, IF we turn to Him in His Divine Mercy with "Trust in our Hearts".

Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy messages all directly reflect God's Holy Word and are given by God The Most High and The Holy Spirit. If there were to be contrary content within Jesus' Divine Mercy Holy Chaplet, Prayers and Holy messages and contrary content within The Blessed Virgin Mary's Holy messages to mankind; obviously millions around the world would have disregarded; of which has not been the fact at all.

Therefore do not worry yourself about the Roman Catholic Teachings aspect, instead, continue turning to Jesus Christ our Saviour/God/The Holy Spirit praying the Prayers that Jesus has given mankind to pray in order to receive His Divine Mercy - pray Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet and "The Holy Rosary" to The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God.

In relation to the Roman Catholic Church (quite a few priests in three of the Dioceses I attend) have and do regularly warn Parishioners within their Sermons about the fact that Jesus will be appearing here on Earth soon. Several months ago my Parish Father warned Parishioners to prepare themselves and get their 'houses' in order. To open their hearts and change their lives, praying for Jesus/God's Love to flow into their hearts, to love others and be merciful to others including repentance of sins to Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit.

Just as God The Most High and Jesus Christ our Saviour have warned in His Holy Word/Holy Scriptures Mark in many Passages. If you read both God's Old Testament and New Testament again you will discover what in fact God The Most High stated to Ezra in relation to earth's time and how much time remains for its inhabitants.

In Revelations there are many passages of which describe the last days in relation to 2,000 - 3,000 years.

If you read Jesus Christ our Saviour's Divine Mercy Holy messages to mankind through Saint Faustina during the 1930's you will realise that when Jesus appeared to Saint Faustina as "King of Mercy" thereafter Jesus is "soon" appearing here on Earth with one warning for a short period and this ties in with what God The Most High stated in His Old Testament to Ezra and directly relates to a part of Revelations:

Jesus says:

"Write this down, that before My Coming as judge, I shall come first as The King of Mercy. Before the coming of that day of justice, there will be a sign in the heavens. All light will be extinguished in heaven and earth. There will appear in the sky The Sign of The Cross. From each of the wounds on My Hands and Feet will shine forth a light that will for a brief time brighten the earth.

This will be for a short time before the last day".

God The Most High's spoken Holy Word to Ezra back then:

The Lord Commissions Ezra

14 On the third day, while I was sitting under an oak, behold, a voice came out of a bush opposite me and said, “Ezra, Ezra.” 2 And I said, “Here I am, Lord,” and I rose to my feet. 3 Then he said to me, “I revealed myself in a bush and spoke to Moses, when my people were in bondage in Egypt; 4 and I sent him and led[a] my people out of Egypt; and I led him up on Mount Sinai, where I kept him with me many days; 5 and I told him many wondrous things, and showed him the secrets of the times and declared to him the end of the times. Then I commanded him, saying, 6 ‘These words you shall publish openly, and these you shall keep secret.’ 7 And now I say to you: 8 Lay up in your heart the signs that I have shown you, the dreams that you have seen, and the interpretations that you have heard; 9 for you shall be taken up from among men, and henceforth you shall live with my Son and with those who are like you, until the times are ended. 10 For the age has lost its youth, and the times begin to grow old.

11 For the age is divided into twelve parts, and nine[c] of its parts have already passed, as well as half of the tenth part; so two of its parts remain, besides half of the tenth part.

Now therefore, set your house in order, and reprove your people; comfort the lowly among them, and instruct those that are wise.[e]

And now renounce the life that is corruptible, and put away from you mortal thoughts; cast away from you the burdens of man, and divest yourself now of your weak nature, and lay to one side the thoughts that are most grievous to you, and hasten to escape from these times. For evils worse than those which you have now seen happen shall be done hereafter.

For the weaker the world becomes through old age, the more shall evils be multiplied among its inhabitants. For truth shall go farther away, and falsehood shall come near. For the eagle which you saw in the vision is already hastening to come.”

Jesus appeared to Saint Faustina delivering His "Divine Mercy" as "King of Mercy" of which Jesus has already done.

Jesus then states He will be appearing here on earth as "Judge".

That before the day of justice, there will be a sign in the Heavens accompanied by the remainder of Jesus' 600 pages of His Divine Mercy Prayers and Holy messages in books dictated to Saint Sister Faustina during the 1930's.

Jesus states that if souls do not turn to Him in His Divine Mercy prior to Jesus appearing here on Earth - "woe to those who do not turn to My Mercy".

Jesus has given mankind well over 40 years to choose turning to Him and His Divine Mercy of which includes:

Praying to Jesus His Divine Mercy Chaplet always with the Words "Jesus, I trust in You". - while trusting in Jesus from our hearts, not just our minds.

At any time during the day/night:

"O Blood and Water which gushed forth from The Heart of Jesus, as a Fount of Mercy for us, I trust in You".

At 3pm on any day:

"You expired Jesus but the source of life gushed forth for souls and an ocean of Mercy opened up for the whole world. O Fount of Life, Unfathomable Divine Mercy, envelop the whole world, and empty Yourself out upon us".

The Divine Mercy Chaplet has been requested by Jesus for all sinners to pray for their salvation in particular people of whom are non-repentant to Jesus, nor attending Confession. As Jesus has stated within His Divine Mercy:

"if a sinner prays the Chaplet just once during his life, he is able to receive Graces eternally".

This is Jesus Christ our Saviour's Divine Mercy Holy message that accompanied Jesus' Holy delivery of His Divine Mercy Chaplet to be distributed by priests in the 1930s and Jesus' Holy request that His Divine Mercy Holy Image be placed in all Catholic Churches around the world (there were delays however now done), with Jesus Christ our Saviour's Divine Mercy 9 Day Novena to be prayed within His Divine Mercy Sunday Feast by "All" mankind around the world in order to receive "His ocean of Graces and Blessings" for forgiveness of sins commencing Good Friday with Jesus Christ our Saviour's conditions attached.

As Jesus has stated about His Divine Mercy Chaplet prayed at 3pm for 'the conversion of sinners':

"Know My Daughter, that this Prayer is always heard and answered".

AND Jesus has answered every one of His Divine Mercy Chaplets I have prayed over the years including curing me while dying! Curing my relative while dying x 3 times, curing my Son from his year long ailment, Jesus has cured any person of whom I have prayed for within His Divine Mercy Chaplet and to our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God always with complete Love and Trust in my heart while loving to focus on Jesus, His bitter Passion and every one of His Sorrowful Stations of His Cross.

All the Glory and Honour are Yours Dear God my Heavenly Father now and forever. Amen.

Jesus' Divine Mercy was approved by Pope John Paul II and the Vatican with Divine Mercy Sunday celebrated on the Sunday after Easter.

However, there was a delay of 40 years which brings mankind further along in time.

A little Catholic background in relation to Jesus (our Divine Mercy Himself) and His Divine Mercy with Pope John Paul II.

John Paul II in prayer
Pope John Paul II

The Great Mercy Pope

Pope John Paul II, both in his teaching and personal life, strove to live and teach the message of Divine Mercy. As the great Mercy Pope, he wrote an encyclical on Divine Mercy:


"The Message of Divine Mercy has always been near and dear to me… which I took with me to the See of Peter and which it in a sense forms the image of this Pontificate."

In his writings and homilies, he has described Divine Mercy as the answer to the world’s problems and the message of the third millennium. He beatified and canonized Sr. Maria Faustina Kowalska, the nun associated with the message, and he did it in Rome and not in Poland to underscore that Divine Mercy is for the whole world.

Establishing Divine Mercy Sunday for the Entire Church

When Pope John Paul canonized Sr. Faustina (making her St. Faustina), he also, on the same day, surprised the entire world by establishing Divine Mercy Sunday (the feast day associated with the message) as a feast day for the entire Church. The feast day falls on the Second Sunday of the Easter season. On that day, Pope John Paul II declared, "This is the happiest day of my life."

Entrusting the World to Divine Mercy

In 2002, the Pope entrusted the whole world to Divine Mercy when he consecrated the International Shrine of The Divine Mercy in Lagiewniki, a suburb of Krakow in Poland. This is where St. Faustina’s mortal remains are entombed. The saint lived in a convent nearby. The Pope himself remembers as a young man working in the Solvay Quarry, just a few meters from the present-day Shrine. He also says that he had been thinking about Sr. Faustina for a long time when he wrote his encyclical on Divine Mercy. Further, the Holy Father has frequently quoted from the Diary of St. Faustina and has prayed The Chaplet of The Divine Mercy at the saint’s tomb.

Beyond the Life of John Paul II

Given all these connections to Divine Mercy and St. Faustina, is it any wonder that Pope John Paul II died on the Vigil of Divine Mercy Sunday (the evening before the feast day), which fell that year on April 3. It is also no surprise that the Great Mercy Pope left us a message for Divine Mercy Sunday, which was read on the feast day by a Vatican official to the faithful in St. Peter’s after a Mass that had been celebrated for the repose of the soul of the Pope.

Repeatedly Pope John Paul II has written and spoken about the need for us to turn to the mercy of God as the answer to the specific problems of our times. He has placed a strong and significant focus on the Divine Mercy message and devotion throughout his pontificate that will carry the Church long after his death.

If you choose, as a Catholic and/or Christian not to believe in Jesus Christ our Saviour's Divine Mercy, not to pray His Divine Mercy Chaplet, and not to believe in Jesus delivering His Divine Mercy Holy messages (of which The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God appeared to Saint Sister Faustina on occasions); all I can do is offer a prayer for you.

Thekla said:

Are you sure this is a matter of being a "post master" ?

It's a request for another to pray ... to join one's prayer.

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You're right...in principle. But bbbbbbb is also right.

Time and again, whenever this is the subject under discussion, advocates of praying to Mary have tried to minimize the implications of such practices by describing her supposed intercession as nothing more than her transmitting your request to the Father. That is to make the action, and her role, into little more than that of a postmaster or letter carrier--and it's the description that your folks, not we, have created.

This is where the other part of Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Teachings through His Apostles and Disciples is paramount.

We have been taught by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit to open our hearts to Jesus Christ our Saviour with Love and Trust praying to Him in order to "receive" Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit into our hearts and speaking to our hearts...with repentance of sins, fasting if possible, and then one is able to receive Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Loving Holy Wisdom, Guidance, Enlightenment and His Holy Callings for those of whom choose to receive.

This is precisely one of the reasons Jesus requests within His Divine Mercy Chaplet and Divine Mercy Holy messages to focus on Jesus and His bitter Passion.

Following Jesus' Teachings and particularly within His "Acts" in His New Testament and God The Most High's Teachings within His Old Testament - repentance of sins, fasting and prayer (to Jesus in trust) protects us from satan more greatly while opening our hearts with Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Loving Holy assistance - to "receive" Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit and Him speaking to our hearts.

The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God says:

"Focus on My Son Jesus your Saviour's bitter Passion My Children, this enables one to come closer to My Son, to receive Jesus into your hearts while trusting in Him".

"That is all".

Just a query here to Bbbbbb and Mark,

Have any of you fasted daily for a year while praying to Jesus His Divine Mercy Chaplet and The Holy Rosary daily or thrice daily with complete trust in your hearts in Jesus while focussing on Jesus and His Life, His Bitter Passion, His Sorrowful Stations of His Cross and repenting all of your life's sins (the majority) from your heart in genuine remorse?

If you have done these things while receiving Jesus/God/The Holy Spirits Blessed Holy Eucharist daily or thrice weekly while sacrificing things/wealth/money/personal effects - and the focus on these things - then you would not be doubting Jesus nor The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy appearances, Holy Prayers delivered to mankind nor Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary's Holy messages of which "All" have been delivered by God The Most High.

Some of these Holy ways and more were all taught by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit to His Disciples and Apostles (and followers) in order to come closer to Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit and to "receive" Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit into our "Hearts" as opposed to just receiving God into our "minds".

There is an incredible difference.

There is an incredible difference in being merciful or compassionate to others without Love present too.

Originally Posted by bbbbbbb View Post
Moses did so at God's direct commandment. We have no such commandment or direction from God allowing any human the impossible task of serving as a postmaster of prayers to God.

Albion said:

You're right...in principle. But bbbbbbb is also right.

Time and again, whenever this is the subject under discussion, advocates of praying to Mary have tried to minimize the implications of such practices by describing her supposed intercession as nothing more than her transmitting your request to the Father. That is to make the action, and her role, into little more than that of a postmaster or letter carrier--and it's the description that your folks, not we, have created.

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Hmmm ... so how do you characterize when other people pray for you ?

How does St. James characterize the prayers of the presbyters ? (of course presbyter means elder but also ambassador)

How does Dt. John characterize it in the vision he saw, in Revelation, as the offering of the prayers to God ?

Thekla said:

Hmmm ... so how do you characterize when other people pray for you ?

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Please don't try that on me after all the times this has been discussed. We all know that your next door neighbor is not the same as a spirit--in several important ways.

How does Dt. John characterize it in the vision he saw, in Revelation, as the offering of the prayers to God ?

Click to expand...

...or THAT old and tired retort. That the saints and angels pray FOR us is not the same as we praying TO them.

Albion said:

Please don't try that on me after all the times this has been discussed. We all know that your next door neighbor is not the same as a spirit--in several important ways.

Click to expand...

Discussion, response, is not an attempt to "try that one" on you - or anybody else - in my book.

And why do you think having a neighbor pray for you is different ? The body of Christ is not divided; how about in your theology ? What binds the body of Christ ?

...or THAT old and tired retort. That the saints and angels pray FOR us is not the same as we praying TO them.

Click to expand...

To ask (pray) a Saint to pray for you is not quite what you assign it to be;
why are you an authority on what others (like me) do or believe ?

Thekla said:

Discussion, response, is not an attempt to "try that one" on you - or anybody else - in my book.

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Then let me put it another way. Respect me enough not to give me any of those canned one-liners that are, at best, verbal tricks--and very old ones, at that, which have been rebutted many times on these forums. Give me something serious that can be discussed--and on topic.

Albion said:

Then let me put it another way. Respect me enough not to give me any of those canned one-liners that are, at best, verbal tricks--and very old ones, at that, which have been rebutted many times on these forums. Give me something serious--and on topic.

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Why do you denigrate my response as a "canned one-liner"; I read the Holy Scriptures, and respond to your query from them.

Nor do I conceive of my response to you as a "verbal trick" - that would be disrespectful, and I intend an honest response not disprespect.

I truly believe the body of Christ is not divided. I accept as true what St. John records in Revelation.

If they have been "rebutted", it is a rebuttal based on an interpretation of the text that we do not share. Which might mean we have a very different theological (or more accurately philological, as theology has connotations that may not be accurate cross-understanding) understanding.

Thekla said:

Why do you denigrate my response as a "canned one-liner"

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Those are canned one-liners. We both know that they have been used by various propagandist posters on these forums more times than I can count and in almost the exact same way. You can do much better, and I don't intend to denigrate YOU. Just the opposite, in fact. I am disappointed that you chose to repeat that stuff instead of making your own case.

So far, I'm not seeing anything I can discuss. The issue is praying to spirits, not asking your neighbor to pray for you; and it is not about those in heaven praying to the Father on their own.

Albion said:

Because that's what it is, and we both know that it has been used by various propagandist posters on these forums more times than I can count and in almost the exact same way. You can do much better, we both know, but you chose to repeat that stuff.

So far, I'm not seeing anything I can discuss. The issue is praying to spirits, not asking your neighbor to pray for you; and it is not about those in heaven praying to the Father on their own.

Click to expand...

Of course, if you consider the other side's rebuttal of your points "propaganda" and a "trick" there is already no discussion (clearly indicated it seems to me in the tone of your responses to me).

In which case, there is nothing I can say which can pierce a bias, and it is better not to proceed.

Thekla said:

Of course, if you consider the other side's rebuttal of your points "propaganda" and a "trick" there is already no discussion.

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Well, I said I was willing to discuss. If you can't or won't offer a counter argument after saying there was no "discussion" there's not much more I can do alone, is there? I have not just criticized those tricks with words but I have clearly explained WHY they are off-topic. And you have no answer.

In which case, there is nothing I can say which can pierce a bias

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Oh, that's a good one. Complain about me allegedly "denigrating" your response...and then follow it up by calling me biased.

Albion, I believe that WisdomTree in Post # 2 explains it,
"Marian devotion does not elevate the Ever Virgin Mary in status, but rather to give credit and show how glorious Christ is. Everything the Catholic Church do in regards to devotions and venerations it is to show the glory of Christ."

Mary always leads us to Her Son and reminds us to do whatever He tells us [ biblical].Why would you think that Jesus would be disappointed in any way with His Mother or with us when we ask His Mother to pray for us ?

I agree with you comments.

I would note that the idea that Mary is not a postmaster comes from the comments of Pope Francis regarding apparitions.

Thekla said:

Are you sure this is a matter of being a "post master" ?

It's a request for another to pray ... to join one's prayer.

I do think the matter of the body of Christ (Paul) and praying for one another are well established.

And requesting the prayers of the (deceased) Rachel was already well established in Judaism by the time of Christ.

Click to expand...

barryatlake said:

Albion, I believe that WisdomTree in Post # 2 explains it,

"Marian devotion does not elevate the Ever Virgin Mary in status, but rather to give credit and show how glorious Christ is. Everything the Catholic Church do in regards to devotions and venerations it is to show the glory of Christ."

Click to expand...

That's what is said in defense of the practice. But what the facts are is something else. Of course, anyone who defends these things is going to say that it's not bad, it's just "to give credit and show how glorious Christ is." But that isn't what we're talking about. If you want to show how glorious Christ is...do that! What we're talking about is lavishing praise upon Mary, not Christ! And then we come to what, exactly, is done in order to "honor" Mary.

And don't forget that when this issue comes up, WisdomTree might have responded that it glorifies Christ, but plenty of other Catholics have said that it is about Mary...and then proceeded to argue that this was right and proper to do, even saying that it MUST be done. So at the least, there are conflicting excuses being offered.

Mary always leads us to Her Son and reminds us to do whatever He tells us

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[
Do you need Mary to do that? Why is that, even if were correct to say?

Why would you think that Jesus would be disappointed in any way with His Mother or with us when we ask His Mother to pray for us ?

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When he was asked how to pray, what did he say? There's no need to guess or speculate. Jesus himself gave us his own example regarding how to pray and to whom, and he also taught his followers with the Lord's Prayer when directly asked. I know that you are aware of its contents.