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The snare of devotion to Mary.

Albion

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However, if people use the Rosary (physical item) as an object that to them will repel evil than it is a superstitious believe.
So we are agreed on that. I hope that you also agree that some people misuse it in devotions to Mary that verge upon worship...which was the point here, not how to say the rosary or how much it means to you personally.

This is because Jesus blessed Saint Peter and upon him God built His church on earth. [/B]
That would require to you to understand that 1) you have misread that verse, and 2) "church" never means a particular denomination only.

There is an unbroken line from Jesus to our priests today.
Well, yours, mine, and a number of other churches, too. But this doesn't have anything to do with the misuse of the rosary.

Forgive me if I am a hopeless romantic but I believe whole heartedly that my Rosary is 'touched by God'.
You say "romantic" but do you really mean "superstitious?" Give it some thought.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The Church says they are wrong. The problem lies in assuming every tom, dick, and harry should be their own interpretor of Scripture when as I said the Scripture says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

And you know the Church is inerrant because the Church says it is inerrant. The Mormons know that Joseph Smith and His Church are inerrant because he said they are. The Christian Scientists know that their church is inerrant because Mary Baker Eddy told them so. I know I am errant because I told myself (as does the Bible).
 
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justinangel

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And you know the Church is inerrant because the Church says it is inerrant. The Mormons know that Joseph Smith and His Church are inerrant because he said they are. The Christian Scientists know that their church is inerrant because Mary Baker Eddy told them so. I know I am errant because I told myself (as does the Bible).

If the Catholic Church wasn't founded by Jesus Christ himself, which would make it inerrant, then who was it founded by if not Tom, Dick, or Joseph?
:mmh:

PAX
:angel:
 
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justinangel

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That would require to you to understand that 1) you have misread that verse, and 2) "church" never means a particular denomination only.

When Paul wrote his letters to Timothy, the churches in the different regions were not independent denominations. Nor could the apostle even imagine that such a thing as a denomination would come to exist. The NT was written partly to offset the rise of sectarianism and thwart heresy. Paul understood the Church to be one visible apostolic hierarchical body with Christ as its Head. The sects which had arisen at the time were not considered denominations of one heterogeneous invisible Church founded by Christ.

:idea1:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world ... Little children, you are from God, and have conquered them; for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore what they say is from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4, 1-6

PAX
:angel:
 
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Albion

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When Paul wrote his letters to Timothy, the churches in the different regions were not independent denominations. Nor could the apostle even imagine that such a thing as a denomination would come to exist.
That's quite true, so it makes the claim that Christ founded "my denomination but not yours" that I read so often from denominational supremacists on these forums even the more silly. I'm glad you made this point.
 
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bbbbbbb

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If the Catholic Church wasn't founded by Jesus Christ himself, which would make it inerrant, then who was it founded by if not Tom, Dick, or Joseph?
:mmh:

PAX
:angel:

All Christian churches were founded by Jesus Christ, but I think you would agree that not all Christian churches are inerrant. The fact that they were founded by Jesus Christ hardly ensures that any of them have been incapable in falling into error.
 
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concretecamper

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That's quite true, so it makes the claim that Christ founded "my denomination but not yours" that I read so often from denominational supremacists on these forums even the more silly. I'm glad you made this point.

Christ did not found a denomination, that is pure silliness! He established His Church.
 
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concretecamper

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If you mean that He established your church organization and the one and only church, then you have a serious misunderstanding as to what the body of Christ actually is.

I will stick with the Biblical explanation of Church

One, Visible, Teaching, and Authoritative.
 
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concretecamper

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And you know this because your church says so. I daresay there is not a Christian denomination that does not say it was founded by Jesus Christ.

these denominations have a distinct staring point in history and is associated with a person(s). There is no way to spin it otherwise. You may claim that they are following their view of the bible, but that is about it
 
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justinangel

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That's quite true, so it makes the claim that Christ founded "my denomination but not yours" that I read so often from denominational supremacists on these forums even the more silly. I'm glad you made this point.

Obviously you didn't get my point.

PAX
:angel:
 
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Albion

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Obviously you didn't get my point.

PAX
:angel:

I think it's more that you didn't realize what your point about the history of the early church represented.

You correctly reported the situation, but it doesn't add up to any particular denomination being superior to any other. Rather, it's as you said...the earliest Christian churches didn't know any of that "my grouping of churches is the one Christ likes; too bad about your group."
 
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EvangelCatholic

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OK, we've already put real veneration outside the criticism. I doubt, in fact, that there are too many people (other than fundamentalists perhaps) who would get very upset over this ^ kind of thing, but that doesn't mean that what I was referring to doesn't exist.

Sorry, I didn't read all of the thread :blush:
 
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bbbbbbb

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I will stick with the Biblical explanation of Church

One, Visible, Teaching, and Authoritative.

Where in the Bible is that found? I have no difficulty with biblical definitions. Here is a brief summary. Please let me know what you think of the various biblical verses which are cited. Thank you.

Church The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome's translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to "come together," i.e. a gathering. "Body of Christ" Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17) The Temple of God (1 Cor. 3:l6; Eph. 2:2l,22; 1 Pet. 2:5). The Jerusalem From Above or The Heavenly Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26; Heb. l2:22). Both of these terms (as well as "temple") illustrate how the Old Testament notions of outward sanctuary have been replaced with the literal dwelling of God in his people. Bride of Christ or Christ's Betrothed (Eph. 5:25-32; 2 Cor. 11:2). These titles refer to the love and loyalty existing between Christ and believers. - See more at: The New Testament Definition of the ChurchChurch The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome's translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to "come together," i.e. a gathering. "Body of Christ" Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17) The Temple of God (1 Cor. 3:l6; Eph. 2:2l,22; 1 Pet. 2:5). The Jerusalem From Above or The Heavenly Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26; Heb. l2:22). Both of these terms (as well as "temple") illustrate how the Old Testament notions of outward sanctuary have been replaced with the literal dwelling of God in his people. Bride of Christ or Christ's Betrothed (Eph. 5:25-32; 2 Cor. 11:2). These titles refer to the love and loyalty existing between Christ and believers. - See more at: The New Testament Definition of the Church

The word “church” comes from the Greek word ekklesia which is defined as “an assembly” or “called-out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people. It is ironic that when you ask people what church they attend, they usually identify a building. Romans 16:5 says “… greet the church that is in their house.” Paul refers to the church in their house—not a church building, but a body of believers.

The church is the body of Christ, of which He is the head. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” The body of Christ is made up of all believers in Jesus Christ from the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2) until Christ’s return. The body of Christ is comprised of two aspects:

1) The universal church consists of all those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). This verse says that anyone who believes is part of the body of Christ and has received the Spirit of Christ as evidence. The universal church of God is all those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

2) The local church is described in Galatians 1:1-2: “Paul, an apostle … and all the brothers with me, to the churches in Galatia.” Here we see that in the province of Galatia there were many churches—what we call local churches. A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc., is not the church, as in the universal church—but rather is a local church, a local body of believers. The universal church is comprised of those who belong to Christ and who have trusted Him for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.

In summary, the church is not a building or a denomination. According to the Bible, the church is the body of Christ—all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Local churches are gatherings of members of the universal church. The local church is where the members of the universal church can fully apply the “body” principles of 1 Corinthians chapter 12: encouraging, teaching, and building one another up in the knowledge and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Church The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome's translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to "come together," i.e. a gathering. "Body of Christ" Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17) The Temple of God (1 Cor. 3:l6; Eph. 2:2l,22; 1 Pet. 2:5). The Jerusalem From Above or The Heavenly Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26; Heb. l2:22). Both of these terms (as well as "temple") illustrate how the Old Testament notions of outward sanctuary have been replaced with the literal dwelling of God in his people. Bride of Christ or Christ's Betrothed (Eph. 5:25-32; 2 Cor. 11:2). These titles refer to the love and loyalty existing between Christ and believers. - See more at: The New Testament Definition of the Church
Church The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome's translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to "come together," i.e. a gathering. "Body of Christ" Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17) The Temple of God (1 Cor. 3:l6; Eph. 2:2l,22; 1 Pet. 2:5). The Jerusalem From Above or The Heavenly Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26; Heb. l2:22). Both of these terms (as well as "temple") illustrate how the Old Testament notions of outward sanctuary have been replaced with the literal dwelling of God in his people. Bride of Christ or Christ's Betrothed (Eph. 5:25-32; 2 Cor. 11:2). These titles refer to the love and loyalty existing between Christ and believers. - See more at: The New Testament Definition of the Church
 
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bbbbbbb

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these denominations have a distinct staring point in history and is associated with a person(s). There is no way to spin it otherwise. You may claim that they are following their view of the bible, but that is about it

Many have also ascribed a distinct staring point in history of your denomination, as well, and have associated it with the implementation of the office of the papacy. You may claim that your denomination is following its view of holy tradition, but that is about it.
 
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justinangel

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I think it's more that you didn't realize what your point about the history of the early church represented.

You correctly reported the situation, but it doesn't add up to any particular denomination being superior to any other. Rather, it's as you said...the earliest Christian churches didn't know any of that "my grouping of churches is the one Christ likes; too bad about your group."

Is it so hard for you to see that there weren't any denominations in apostolic time, but simply one visible hierarchical apostolic Church as intended by Christ. And that the apostles themselves did not view the heretical Christian sects as denominations belonging to one invisible Church? I thought the Bible might at least correct your distorted vision of the Church which has resulted from your rationalizations. The Church of England was not founded by the King of kings 1500+ years later. So it makes no difference what its members think or have to say about Catholic Marian devotion, which existed in rudimentary form before the NT was written and compiled. And we can only know with the certainty of faith that the Bible is inerrant if the Church which decided on the canon is inerrant.

PAX
:angel:
 
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justinangel

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Many have also ascribed a distinct staring point in history of your denomination, as well, and have associated it with the implementation of the office of the papacy. You may claim that your denomination is following its view of holy tradition, but that is about it.

The primacy of Peter was recognized by all the faithful at the time Matthew wrote his gospel, and it's evident from early extant writings that a universal jurisdictional authority had been conferred on the Bishop of Rome as early as the pontifical reign of Clement (92-99 A.D.) His Epistle (1) to the Corinthians was read during Mass along with the Scriptures in the churches at Corinth. The Shepherd of Hermes (2nd century) indicates that the divine office of a bishop to communicate with all the churches on important matters of faith and discipline rested with the Bishop of Rome (a person by the name of Clement). So Catholic tradition does goes back to earliest time, notwithstanding how the present concept of the papacy has developed through the course of time and certain non-Catholic historians have attempted to rewrite history.

PAX
:angel:
 
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concretecamper

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Many have also ascribed a distinct staring point in history of your denomination, as well, and have associated it with the implementation of the office of the papacy.

You are exactly right. Jesus placed Peter in that office.

You may claim that your denomination is following its view of holy tradition, but that is about it.

You are right again. Following Sacred Tradition is all that is required.
 
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