The snare of devotion to Mary.

EvangelCatholic said:

I am not biblical literalistic nor do I consider all devotion to God needing biblical proof. The early Church Councils view the blessed Virgin in ways that many Christians affirm but it is not necessary for salvation to believe some of the Marian doctrines except, of-course, the virgin-birth of Christ.

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none of this addresses my stance which is bible based as a bible believing christian.
no scripture..equals fully exposed to error.
so only scripture will convince me.

infallible opinions of mere men speaking things which
-A . are not in the Bible and
-B. do not agree with the bible ,
are discarded.

who said anything about devotion? ..thats misdirection.
i posted to the OP in agreement with the op and clarified my stance as a reason why.
dont like it? you dont have to . but if you have zero scripture to show error in my present stance ...present it.as it is the only authority i will recognize.

michaelmynameIs said:

...such a statement as" -cannot enter heaven except through mary- is outrightly erroneous ,unscriptural and diametrically opposed to the Gospel.

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Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.
Isaiah 7, 14

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. .[/SIZE]
Luke 1, 26-27

It was through Mary that God willed to become incarnate in order to redeem humankind.

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
John 2, 3-5

It was through the intercession of his mother Mary that our Lord and Saviour willed to reveal himself to the world and begin his public ministry in the shadow of the cross. It is through the mediation of his mother, and for her sake more than ours, that Jesus wills to channel his grace of salvation to humankind. Catholics believe Christ is the head of the Church, Mary is its neck, we are the members of His body who rely on the neck (the spinal cord) to work out our salvation by the signal graces we receive from our Head. Our Blessed Mother did not lay her saving office aside after the angel Gabriel had left her that 6th month.

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness.”
Methodius , Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]

Mary was chosen because .. she was to be josephs wife(line of david) no other reason..

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'I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.'"
Psalm 132, 11

Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
Luke 1, 30-33

And Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Luke 1, 41-42

Mary was chosen because she herself was of the House of David (Malkhut Beit David), but she wasn't chosen only for that reason.

She was blessed by this eventuality but in no other manner special, being born of flesh and blood from the sinful blood of Adam. She became the one(the vessel) through whom the bodily manifestation of God was born forth into the world.

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Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.
Luke 1, 38

Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."

And Mary said:"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
Luke 1, 45-49

By default the incarnation would not have occurred if Mary had faithlessly withheld her consent to conceive and bear Jesus so that the whole world could be formally reconciled with God and saved. It was because of Mary's obedient act of faith in charity (without free will there can be no obedient act of faith working through love) and the universal fruit of Mary's fiat that Elizabeth praised her kinswoman. God would never negate His essential infinite goodness and wisdom by Omni potently coercing Mary into being the mother of His divine Son. If Mary had no choice but to be the mother of Jesus, she couldn't possibly have been blessed. She was blessed for having sacrificed her natural maternal rights because of her love for God and humankind. It was through this path alone that the divine Word chose to enter the world for our salvation (cf. Rev 3:20) in accordance with the Father's will. The prophet tells us: "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6). To suggest that Mary was chosen by God to be nothing more than His biological instrument is to reject what sacred Scripture enjoins, that all generations join in with Elizabeth to proclaim Mary truly blessed for having heard the word of God and kept it in her heart (cf. Lk 11:28).

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]

And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."
Luke 1, 28

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb.
Luke 1, 41

The original Greek expression of the female vocative "favoured one" or "favoured with grace" is κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene). Without getting into all of the grammatical points, Luke is acknowledging a Marian tradition in the nascent Church, of Mary being "completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace" (cf. Blass and Debrunner: Greek Grammar of the New Testament). The early Church believed, as is evident in Iranaeus' writings, that Mary was sinless. If she ever had committed any personal sins and was just like her biological universal mother Eve, inclined to sin, then she could not be her anti-type: the new Eve, who helped reverse what the original Eve in the flesh had helped to wrought through her sinfulness. There is no room or occasion for sin in the soul which has been completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace. Thus we read in Jerome's Latin Vulgate: "Hail, full of grace!" It is because Mary was conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin and had committed no personal sins, that in the divine order of grace, she serves as the universal Dispensatrix of all grace which comes from the Son, the new Adam. It was upon the sound of Mary's greeting that Elizabeth's offspring leapt in her womb. Catholics believe that John's soul was sanctified by God at that precise moment. So we mustn't disassociate Mary from the Son in the economy of salvation. Mary serves God's plan of salvation as our Lord's helpmate, just as Eve was Adam's helpmate during the fall of 'mankind' from God's grace. To suggest that Mary was sinful like Eve, and so bore Jesus with pain, contravenes the Gospel and the sacred Tradition from which the written word proceeds in its true meaning.

“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ”
Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]

...and as that vessel, became the mother of Jesus.. the "man"(flesh and blood) .
For God is eternal and the most high ,thus there is none before him nor after him.Hence she is not the mother of God.-for she has a point of origin in him ,not him in her.

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"And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
Luke 1, 43, 45

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.
John 1, 1, 14

"I and the Father are one."
John 10, 30

The Greek word for "Lord" is Κυρίου (Kyrios) In the Septuagint this word refers to JHWH. The Semitic equivalent used by Mary's kinswoman is Adonai. Elizabeth identifies the one who had spoken to Mary with the one whom she carries in her womb. So what you suggest not only divides the Holy Trinity into three Gods (Tritheism), but also Jesus into two persons, one divine and one human (Nestorianism). And it contradicts what Jesus claimed to be in his divine person. The Father and the Son are distinct persons, but they are "of one substance" (cf. Council of Nicea, A.D. 325) together with the Holy Spirit in an undivided unity. When we profess that Mary is the Mother of God, we mean that she is the Mother of the Divine Word by having conceived and borne Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. The divine Word and the Son of Man are one and the same person by the hypostatic union of Jesus' divine and human natures, which also are distinct but undivided in Jesus, just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but undivided in substance in the one Godhead. So, yes, Mary did indeed conceive and bear God - namely God the Son.

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit."
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians 1, 18:2 (A.D. 110)

...there is no direct unambiguous scripture to support claim of continued virginity .it remains an unsubstantiated opinion by those devoted to her veneration.

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But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?" And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."
Luke 1, 34-35

In v.34, the original Greek for "I have no relations with a man" [NAB] reads ἄνδραou οὐ γινώσκω (andra ou ginōskō), which is "I know not a man" [KJV] or "I do not know a man" [DRB]. Thus Mary is not telling the angel that she has not had (prefect tense) any sexual relations with a man or with Joseph up to this time. Rather she is telling the angel that she is a virgin; she doesn't have sexual relations with a man and has no intention to, so how could she possibly have a child. As a Jew, Mary believed that the Messiah would be of paternal human lineage; she discovers otherwise when the angel answers her question to allay her perplexity. Nor is Mary questioning whether she is expected to conceive and bear the child during her betrothal in violation of Mosaic Law, since the angel doesn't specify an exact time for the event in the future. This verse does in fact attest to a Marian tradition that had existed by the time Luke wrote his gospel.

"And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary, and her giving birth, and likewise the death of the Lord: three mysteries crying out to be told, but wrought in the silence of God"
Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Ephesians 19.1 (A.D. 110)

Ignatius believed that Satan had no idea Jesus was the Son of God. Thus, by his estimation, Mary's virginity couldn't have remained hidden to the devil if she had other children with Joseph. The Bishop of Antioch was a disciple of the apostle John, so he learned from him that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus. Mary's perpetual virginity is not a matter of private opinion, but rather a belief which belongs to the deposit of faith.

PAX

topcare said:

Yet there is no support in the Bible where it says follow the Bible alone but when one points out this tradition of man, one gets blasted. When one points out the fault in a bad definition one gets blasted.

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one does this and one does that one and another do many things..

address the topic

if you believe the Lord jesus is the living word of God..
as i do.
then refer to my former reply .which fully addressed your question of whom we are to listen to.
everything about God must be in harmonious agreement with the word of God.

if man teaches something that is neither in scripture Nor agrees with holy Spirit breathed scripture...I assure you-It is NOT scripture that is wrong.

without scriptural foundation a person is floating to be tossed to and fro with every doctrine that comes along.
we must search the scriptures to see if what is being taught agrees with all God has already said..for God cannot err.

justinangel said:

Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.
Isaiah 7, 14

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. .[/SIZE]
Luke 1, 26-27

It was through Mary that God willed to become incarnate in order to redeem humankind.

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine." (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
John 2, 3-5

It was through the intercession of his mother Mary that our Lord and Saviour willed to reveal himself to the world and begin his public ministry in the shadow of the cross. It is through the mediation of his mother, and for her sake more than ours, that Jesus wills to channel his grace of salvation to humankind. Catholics believe Christ is the head of the Church, Mary is its neck, we are the members of His body who rely on the neck (the spinal cord) to work out our salvation by the signal graces we receive from our Head. Our Blessed Mother did not lay her saving office aside after the angel Gabriel had left her that 6th month.

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness.”
Methodius , Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]



'I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.'"
Psalm 132, 11

Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
Luke 1, 30-33

And Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Luke 1, 41-42

Mary was chosen because she herself was of the House of David (Malkhut Beit David), but she wasn't chosen only for that reason.



Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.
Luke 1, 38

Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."

And Mary said:"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
Luke 1, 45-49

By default the incarnation would not have occurred if Mary had faithlessly withheld her consent to conceive and bear Jesus so that the whole world could be formally reconciled with God and saved. It was because of Mary's obedient act of faith in charity (without free will there can be no obedient act of faith working through love) and the universal fruit of Mary's fiat that Elizabeth praised her kinswoman. God would never negate His essential infinite goodness and wisdom by Omni potently coercing Mary into being the mother of His divine Son. If Mary had no choice but to be the mother of Jesus, she couldn't possibly have been blessed. She was blessed for having sacrificed her natural maternal rights because of her love for God and humankind. It was through this path alone that the divine Word chose to enter the world for our salvation (cf. Rev 3:20) in accordance with the Father's will. The prophet tells us: "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6). To suggest that Mary was chosen by God to be nothing more than His biological instrument is to reject what sacred Scripture enjoins, that all generations join in with Elizabeth to proclaim Mary truly blessed for having heard the word of God and kept it in her heart (cf. Lk 11:28).

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]

And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."
Luke 1, 28

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb.
Luke 1, 41

The original Greek expression of the female vocative "favoured one" or "favoured with grace" is κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene). Without getting into all of the grammatical points, Luke is acknowledging a Marian tradition in the nascent Church, of Mary being "completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace" (cf. Blass and Debrunner: Greek Grammar of the New Testament). The early Church believed, as is evident in Iranaeus' writings, that Mary was sinless. If she ever had committed any personal sins and was just like her biological universal mother Eve, inclined to sin, then she could not be her anti-type: the new Eve, who helped reverse what the original Eve in the flesh had helped to wrought through her sinfulness. There is no room or occasion for sin in the soul which has been completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace. Thus we read in Jerome's Latin Vulgate: "Hail, full of grace!" It is because Mary was conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin and had committed no personal sins, that in the divine order of grace, she serves as the universal Dispensatrix of all grace which comes from the Son, the new Adam. It was upon the sound of Mary's greeting that Elizabeth's offspring leapt in her womb. Catholics believe that John's soul was sanctified by God at that precise moment. So we mustn't disassociate Mary from the Son in the economy of salvation. Mary serves God's plan of salvation as our Lord's helpmate, just as Eve was Adam's helpmate during the fall of 'mankind' from God's grace. To suggest that Mary was sinful like Eve, and so bore Jesus with pain, contravenes the Gospel and the sacred Tradition from which the written word proceeds in its true meaning.

“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ”
Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]



"And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
Luke 1, 43, 45

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.
John 1, 1, 14

"I and the Father are one."
John 10, 30

The Greek word for "Lord" is Κυρίου (Kyrios) In the Septuagint this word refers to JHWH. The Semitic equivalent used by Mary's kinswoman is Adonai. Elizabeth identifies the one who had spoken to Mary with the one whom she carries in her womb. So what you suggest not only divides the Holy Trinity into three Gods (Tritheism), but also Jesus into two persons, one divine and one human (Nestorianism). And it contradicts what Jesus claimed to be in his divine person. The Father and the Son are distinct persons, but they are "of one substance" (cf. Council of Nicea, A.D. 325) together with the Holy Spirit in an undivided unity. When we profess that Mary is the Mother of God, we mean that she is the Mother of the Divine Word by having conceived and borne Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. The divine Word and the Son of Man are one and the same person by the hypostatic union of Jesus' divine and human natures, which also are distinct but undivided in Jesus, just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but undivided in substance in the one Godhead. So, yes, Mary did indeed conceive and bear God - namely God the Son.

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit."
Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians 1, 18:2 (A.D. 110)



But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?" And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."
Luke 1, 34-35

In v.34, the original Greek for "I have no relations with a man" [NAB] reads ἄνδρα ou οὐ γινώσκω (andra ou ginōskō), which is "I know not a man" [KJV] or "I do not know a man" [DRB]. Thus Mary is not telling the angel that she has not had (prefect tense) any sexual relations with a man or with Joseph up to this time. Rather she is telling the angel that she is a virgin; she doesn't have sexual relations with a man and has no intention to, so how could she possibly have a child. As a Jew, Mary believed that the Messiah would be of paternal human lineage; she discovers otherwise when the angel answers her question to appease her perplexity. Nor is Mary questioning whether she is expected to conceive and bear the child during her betrothal in violation of Mosaic Law, since the angel doesn't specify an exact time for the event in the future. This verse does in fact attest to a Marian tradition that had existed by the time Luke wrote his gospel.

"And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary, and her giving birth, and likewise the death of the Lord: three mysteries crying out to be told, but wrought in the silence of God"
Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Ephesians 19.1 (A.D. 110)

Ignatius believed that Satan had no idea that Jesus was the Son of God. Thus, by his estimation, Mary's virginity couldn't have remained hidden to the devil if she had other children with Joseph. The Bishop of Antioch was a disciple of the apostle John, so he learned from him that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus. Mary's perpetual virginity is not a matter of private opinion, but rather a belief which belongs to the deposit of faith.

PAX

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a sign of the coming messiah.
does not equate to a necessitation of the sign as a means of salvation.it may /and does ,point to the way ..but is not in itself ,the way.
The Lord Jesus is.

Jesus appeared to Saint Dominic (a Priest) during 1214 delivering God The Most High's "Holy Rosary" of which contain the "Our Father" Prayer, the "Hail Mary" Prayer, the "Glory be to The Father, and to The Son, and to The Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end, Amen", including:

"The Hail Holy Queen Mother of Mercy Prayer":

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, Hail our life, our sweetness and our hope. To Thee do we cry, poor banished Children of Eve, to Thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then O Most Gracious Advocate, Thine Eyes of Mercy towards us, and after this our exile, show unto us, The Blessed Fruit of Thy Womb Jesus. O Clement, O Loving, O Sweet Virgin Mary, pray for us O Holy Mother of God that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ, Amen.

This prayer Michael was given by God The Most High to Jesus Christ our Saviour of Whom delivered it to one of His chosen priests "Saint Dominic" and "Blessed Alan de La Roche" during 1214 and 1260 respectively.

Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mary "Mother of God" are urgently converting sinners to Jesus through our Blessed Virgin Mary and have been doing this for centuries, with well documented evidence in the lives of not only the religious, millions throughout God's world.

By debating and turning away new Christians, would be Christians, from praying to our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and/or dissuading others from praying to our Heavenly Mother Mary Her Holy Rosary and the Magnificat, or any Prayers to The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God that are indeed received by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit - I fear for peoples souls after undertaking this wrongful exercise within Jesus/God's Holy Will.

Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit Love, Holy Wisdom, Discernment, and all Holy Blessed Gifts are within our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, and Coronated in Heaven, with sinners encouraged to pray to our Holy Mother of God all prayers including The Holy Rosary Gifted to our Blessed Virgin Mary for sinners to pray.

If one has thoroughly read and comprehended in the right ways, Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Scriptures, and received Jesus and The Holy Spirit, one would never be making these false dreadful claims, deterring others from praying to our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God nor stating that our Heavenly Mother Mary does not hold a special Holy Role in Heaven Blessed by God The Most High.

Jesus implores 'sinners' to call upon His Heavenly Mother in Heaven, praying Her Holy Rosary - "all mankind" regardless of religions and Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet for the last hope of Salvation by Jesus Himself (now one could declare the appearance of Jesus to Saint Faustina on many many occasions delivering Jesus/God's Divine Mercy Chaplet, Michael, as outside of New Testament/Holy Scriptures time, however, all of Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mary's Holy messages directly pertain to all of Jesus/God's Holy Scriptures, Prayers given, Psalms, Parables, Disciples Passages, Revelations most of all.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

said my piece .. it stands.
leave you to it.

michaelmynameIs said:

a sign of the coming messiah.
does not equate to a necessitation of the sign as a means of salvation.it may /and does ,point to the way ..but is not in itself ,the way.
The Lord Jesus is.

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Meaning?

PAX

michaelmynameIs said:

...everything about God must be in harmonious agreement with the word of God.

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Thus not with the word of Michaelmynameis.

if man teaches something that is neither in scripture Nor agrees with holy Spirit breathed scripture...I assure you-It is NOT scripture that is wrong.

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Aren't you a man who is attempting to breathe into Scripture what you fallibly think has been breathed into it by the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps there is something there, but you fail to see it.

without scriptural foundation a person is floating to be tossed to and fro with every doctrine that comes along.

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Without clinging to the Church founded by Christ and not mortal men as the Rule of Faith (the ark of Noah in biblical typology) one can easily float and be tossed about by the waves of Scripture. The Bible is not the final teaching authority.

Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace which was given me by the working of his power. To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 3, 7-10

We must search the scriptures to see if what is being taught agrees with all God has already said..for God cannot err.

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But fallible individuals like ourselves who do dare to search the Scriptures without the guaranty of the Holy Spirit, which has been conferred on the apostles and their valid successors in the college of bishops to teach sound doctrine, can err in our private judgments.

So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
2 Peter 3, 15-16


First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
2 Peter 1, 20

We must seek the divine teaching authority of the Church to see what has been revealed in Scripture. What we assume to understand, if not fail to understand, might not be true.

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Acts 8, 30-31

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry.”
Pope Clement l, (Bishop of Rome) Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]

PAX

Our Blessed Virgin Mary says at 1:35am

"My Child, tell people from your heart to pray to Jesus My Son your Saviour, focussing on Jesus' bitter Passion, His Life, His Sorrows, Agonies, the bitterness that My Son felt when being persecuted, the Sorrows Jesus My Son endured for sinners during His last hours".

"Doing this, Jesus is able to bring hearts closer to Him and through me, My Child, opening hearts to Him more fully, flowing milk and honey, in Love through hearts, melting the hardness, My Child, of which enables hearts to receive My Son your Saviour".

"Praying The Rosary of which God Blessed mankind, through me, enables hearts to open up to My Son Jesus, your Saviour, while focussing on My Son, His bitter Passion, His Sorrowful Stations of His Cross, all that Jesus endured My Children, for mankind to receive His Mercy - Divine Mercy".

"That is all".

Hmm. Well, I guess that settles it.

michaelmynameIs said:

one does this and one does that one and another do many things..

address the topic

if you believe the Lord jesus is the living word of God..
as i do.
then refer to my former reply .which fully addressed your question of whom we are to listen to.
everything about God must be in harmonious agreement with the word of God.

if man teaches something that is neither in scripture Nor agrees with holy Spirit breathed scripture...I assure you-It is NOT scripture that is wrong.

without scriptural foundation a person is floating to be tossed to and fro with every doctrine that comes along.
we must search the scriptures to see if what is being taught agrees with all God has already said..for God cannot err.

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That idea is a tradition of man, nowhere in Scripture does it say to use itself as foundation. The Scripture does say the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not everything needs to be in the Bible

topcare said:

That idea is a tradition of man, nowhere in Scripture does it say to use itself as foundation. The Scripture does say the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not everything needs to be in the Bible

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Herein lies the difficulty. Mohammed agreed entirely with your position and supplemented the Bible with the Q'ran. Joseph Smith augmented the Bible with the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines. Mary Baker Eddy decided that Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. They were all quite confident that their writings were just the ticket for true religion. Who is to say they were wrong if we believe that not everything needs to be in the Bible?

bbbbbbb said:

Herein lies the difficulty. Mohammed agreed entirely with your position and supplemented the Bible with the Q'ran. Joseph Smith augmented the Bible with the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines. Mary Baker Eddy decided that Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. They were all quite confident that their writings were just the ticket for true religion. Who is to say they were wrong if we believe that not everything needs to be in the Bible?

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The Church says they are wrong. The problem lies in assuming every tom, dick, and harry should be their own interpretor of Scripture when as I said the Scripture says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

bbbbbbb said:

Herein lies the difficulty. Mohammed agreed entirely with your position and supplemented the Bible with the Q'ran. Joseph Smith augmented the Bible with the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines. Mary Baker Eddy decided that Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. They were all quite confident that their writings were just the ticket for true religion. Who is to say they were wrong if we believe that not everything needs to be in the Bible?

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Then, there were also what we would call "positive" writings - which maintained the ancient interpretations.

(It's Islam that refers to Christians as "people of the Book" - an inaccuracy.)

topcare said:

The Church says they are wrong. The problem lies in assuming every tom, dick, and harry should be their own interpretor of Scripture when as I said the Scripture says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth

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...except that the Scriptures do not say that "the Church" (by which you mean a denomination) is the pillar and foundation of truth. If you'd read that passage before posting this routine claim, you'd have seen that it says that the PEOPLE OF GOD, i.e. the HOUSEHOLD OF GOD, are the pillar and foundation of truth.

topcare said:

veneration does not mean worship. veneration means great respect; reverence.

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That's true, but we're concerned with those occasions in which worship IS what's happening and not just veneration. There is no issue where simple reverence or regard is present.

Maybe you can show me where the Bible says to follow it alone

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Certainly. I posted 19 such verses when, on an earlier occasion, some other poster posed the same question.

Albion said:

That's true, but we're concerned with those occasions in which worship IS what's happening and not just veneration. There is no issue where simple reverence or regard is present.


Certainly. I posted 19 such verses when, on an earlier occasion, some other poster posed the same question.

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In front of a crucifix or image of Mary the instinct is to pause. If in church, we bow to the altar which represents Christ. We honor God when we kiss the Bible after the Gospel is read. Veneration is ultimately directed to Christ including the baby Savior in the womb of holy Mary.

EvangelCatholic said:

In front of a crucifix or image of Mary the instinct is to pause. If in church, we bow to the altar which represents Christ. We honor God when we kiss the Bible after the Gospel is read. Veneration is ultimately directed to Christ including the baby Savior in the womb of holy Mary.

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OK, we've already put real veneration outside the criticism. I doubt, in fact, that there are too many people (other than fundamentalists perhaps) who would get very upset over this ^ kind of thing, but that doesn't mean that what I was referring to doesn't exist.

Albion said:

However, I have indeed had Catholics tell me that SAYING/PRAYING the rosary is a practice that is certain to produce miraculous results. They do indeed use the rosary --and think of the item itself --in a superstitious manner.

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Dear Albion,

There are two points I want to make -

(1) When I pray the Rosary (out of free will - not "The snare of devotion to Mary.")

- I believe in miracles because the Rosary is

(a) meditation; when you say the Rosary you meditate/reflect on - the principal events or mysteries in the history of our salvation, and to thank and praise God for them. There are twenty mysteries reflected upon in the Rosary, and these are divided into the five JOYFUL MYSTERIES, the five LUMINOUS MYSTERIES, the five SORROWFUL MYSTERIES, and the five GLORIOUS MYSTERIES.

This is how the Holy Rosary is said -

Make the Sign of the Cross and say the "Apostles' Creed."
Say the "Our Father."
Say three "Hail Marys."
Say the "Glory be to the Father."
Announce the First Mystery; then say the "Our Father."
Say ten "Hail Marys," while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the "Glory be to the Father."
Announce the Second Mystery; then say the "Our Father." Repeat 6 and 7 and continue with Third, Fourth and Fifth Mysteries in the same manner.

I say the Holy Rosary - devoutly with all my heart.

(b) When praying like this - the Holy Rosary (meaning the prayer) there is no superstition.

(2) However, if people use the Rosary (physical item) as an object that to them will repel evil than it is a superstitious believe.

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The Hand of God explanation - another perspective -

When the Rosary or any holy object has been blessed - the object (from my own understanding) has been touched by God.

This is because Jesus blessed Saint Peter and upon him God built His church on earth.

Matthew 16:18
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it

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There is an unbroken line from Jesus to our priests today.

Forgive me if I am a hopeless romantic but I believe whole heartedly that my Rosary is 'touched by God'.

So - perhaps - if you take it further - evil cannot overpower you because you believe in God.

But - people misunderstand thinking the power comes from placing Rosaries in cars. Actually the power comes from our faith in the one true God.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

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In other words - revisiting (2) However, if people use the Rosary (physical item) as an object that to them will repel evil than it is a superstitious believe.

True if they think the object can repel evil.

False if they believe that God has touched the object and have faith in God that it is God who will repel the evil.

I wish to say that personally - devotion to Mary is never a snare.

My personal devotion to Mother Mary is She is my Mother in heaven.

Mother Mary is the mother of my God.

If you respect your own mother - I hope you will understand.

By the way, Mother Mary was born without original sin - Immaculate Conception. A miracle by itself.

xTx said:

Dear Albion,

There are two points I want to make -

(1) When I pray the Rosary (out of free will - not "The snare of devotion to Mary.")

- I believe in miracles because the Rosary is

(a) meditation; when you say the Rosary you meditate/reflect on - the principal events or mysteries in the history of our salvation, and to thank and praise God for them. There are twenty mysteries reflected upon in the Rosary, and these are divided into the five JOYFUL MYSTERIES, the five LUMINOUS MYSTERIES, the five SORROWFUL MYSTERIES, and the five GLORIOUS MYSTERIES.

This is how the Holy Rosary is said -

Make the Sign of the Cross and say the "Apostles' Creed."
Say the "Our Father."
Say three "Hail Marys."
Say the "Glory be to the Father."
Announce the First Mystery; then say the "Our Father."
Say ten "Hail Marys," while meditating on the Mystery.
Say the "Glory be to the Father."
Announce the Second Mystery; then say the "Our Father." Repeat 6 and 7 and continue with Third, Fourth and Fifth Mysteries in the same manner.

I say the Holy Rosary - devoutly with all my heart.

(b) When praying like this - the Holy Rosary (meaning the prayer) there is no superstition.

(2) However, if people use the Rosary (physical item) as an object that to them will repel evil than it is a superstitious believe.

________________________________________________________________

The Hand of God explanation - another perspective -

When the Rosary or any holy object has been blessed - the object (from my own understanding) has been touched by God.

This is because Jesus blessed Saint Peter and upon him God built His church on earth. [/B]

There is an unbroken line from Jesus to our priests today.

Forgive me if I am a hopeless romantic but I believe whole heartedly that my Rosary is 'touched by God'.

So - perhaps - if you take it further - evil cannot overpower you because you believe in God.

But - people misunderstand thinking the power comes from placing Rosaries in cars. Actually the power comes from our faith in the one true God.

In other words - revisiting (2) However, if people use the Rosary (physical item) as an object that to them will repel evil than it is a superstitious believe.

True if they think the object can repel evil.

False if they believe that God has touched the object and have faith in God that it is God who will repel the evil.

I wish to say that personally - devotion to Mary is never a snare.

My personal devotion to Mother Mary is She is my Mother in heaven.

Mother Mary is the mother of my God.

If you respect your own mother - I hope you will understand.

By the way, Mother Mary was born without original sin - Immaculate Conception. A miracle by itself.

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