The snare of devotion to Mary.

Here is an interesting section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

1674 Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church's sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, religious dances, the rosary, medals, etc.

I like the part where it says "has always found expression". That is blatantly untrue.

bbbbbbb said:

Here is an interesting section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

1674 Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church's sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, religious dances, the rosary, medals, etc.

I like the part where it says "has always found expression". That is blatantly untrue.

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It isn't saying those particular forms have always existed. It is saying people have always practiced forms of popular piety - those are just examples.

They are talking about the little ways people bring their piety into everyday life, and saying that it is a very human thing to do this, and should not be ignored. With good reason, I think, because where you don't have examined ones, people will bring in all kinds of odd things.

Albion said:

That's safe to say, of course, and it applies to people of any religious persuasion.

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Unfortunately, it's the case that many Catholics DO think of the rosary in that way. They're the ones we're considering in this thread, not that ones that see the rosary as only a counting device (if you know any such people).

Have these Catholics told you that? Or is it just an impression of yours you wish to indulge in?

By the way, there are whole Catholic sodalities that exist to promote the practice of hanging a rosary on car mirrors, and the Church does not oppose that.

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Berean Baskets - Christian Gifts and Church Supplies

Rear View Mirror Accessories

Cross Car Charm (Wood) - Good Morning This Is God w/Chain

2.75" x 4"H wooden cross auto charm comes with a chain for displaying in your car.
Inscription: Good morning this is God. I will be handling all your problems today.

Material: HDF wood

Atheists consider this sort of charm superstitious nonsense.

PAX

justinangel said:

Unfortunately, it's the case that many Catholics DO think of the rosary in that way. They're the ones we're considering in this thread, not that ones that see the rosary as only a counting device (if you know any such people).

Have these Catholics told you that? Or is it just an impression of yours you wish to indulge in?

Click to expand...

Told me what?

COLOR="YellowGreen"]Berean Baskets - Christian Gifts and Church Supplies[/COLOR]Rear View Mirror Accessories

Click to expand...

No, I was not referring to any fast-buck manufacturers or sellers of religious goods and gimmicks but an actual association of Catholics who feel that the hanging of a rosary from the mirror instills devotion and promotes frequent use.

justinangel said:

Unfortunately, it's the case that many Catholics DO think of the rosary in that way. They're the ones we're considering in this thread, not that ones that see the rosary as only a counting device (if you know any such people).

Have these Catholics told you that? Or is it just an impression of yours you wish to indulge in?



Berean Baskets - Christian Gifts and Church Supplies

Rear View Mirror Accessories

Cross Car Charm (Wood) - Good Morning This Is God w/Chain

2.75" x 4"H wooden cross auto charm comes with a chain for displaying in your car.
Inscription: Good morning this is God. I will be handling all your problems today.

Material: HDF wood

Atheists consider this sort of charm superstitious nonsense.

PAX

Click to expand...

There is undoubtedly a sub-set of Catholics who have a very superstitious attitude to some of these things.

The idea, for example, that if you wear a brown scapular and perform the associated actions you cannot go to Hell is one that I have known in a few different people.

It can be a problem, if it isn't kept within bounds. One of the things I've appreciated about Pope Francis is that he has talked about this sort of practice as being negative, and too common in some places.

On the other hand, I think it is also out of proportion to be too harsh about such things. People in some situations, with some kinds of education or personalities, are very inclined to little pious practices, and sometimes take them very seriously. That is not at all confined to Catholics - I know plenty of Baptists that could never place another book on top of a Bible.

Personally, I believe in the dormition/ assumption of Mary and can certainly understand/ appreciate her role as the vessel for salvation. Mary became holy because of Jesus. I agree with Luther that a strong Christian can recite the Hail Mary.

Albion said:

Told me what?

Click to expand...

Have any Catholics ever told you that they believe rosary beads possess magical powers in themselves? You responded to what I described as superstitious.

No, I was not referring to any fast-buck manufacturers or sellers of religious goods and gimmicks but an actual association of Catholics who feel that the hanging of a rosary from the mirror instills devotion and promotes frequent use.

Click to expand...

Both many Catholics and Protestants hang crucifix chains on their rear view mirrors or wear them around their necks as pious expressions of devotion which is already instilled.

The daily recital of the Rosary is one of the greatest means for obtaining actual helping graces from God to ensure the attainment of salvation. So the Catholic Church does encourage it with a moral certainty of its effects by the operation of the Holy Spirit. I agree with the late Catholic theologian, Fr. Garriguo-Lagrange, that the sincere daily recital of the Rosary is a sign of predestination to glory. And why is that? "[The Rosary] takes us from the midst of our too human interests and joys and makes us think of those which center on the coming of the Savior. It takes us from our meaningless fears, from the sufferings we bear so badly, and reminds us of how much Jesus has suffered for love of us and teaches us to follow Him by bearing the cross which divine providence has sent us to purify us. It takes us finally from our earthly hopes and ambitions and makes us think of the true object of Christian hope—eternal life and the graces necessary to arrive there."

PAX

MKJ said:

There is undoubtedly a sub-set of Catholics who have a very superstitious attitude to some of these things.

The idea, for example, that if you wear a brown scapular and perform the associated actions you cannot go to Hell is one that I have known in a few different people.

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This is the promise the Blessed Virgin Mary herself made when she appeared to St. Simon Stock on 16 July 1251: "Whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire." Mary's appearance to St. Simon is a private revelation that has been accepted as genuine by the entire Church. Thus what our Blessed Mother promised St. Simon isn't a superstitious belief within a subset of Catholics. True, most Catholics don't wear scapulars, and don't have to, and many Catholics are unaware of the origin of this relic. But that doesn't mean the scapular doesn't belong to a long ecclesial tradition of private Marian devotion in the Church rather than to a divergent sub-culture within her. The late Pope John Paul ll faithfully wore a brown scapular to his last day. He was canonized a saint by his successor former Pope Benedict XVl.

It can be a problem, if it isn't kept within bounds. One of the things I've appreciated about Pope Francis is that he has talked about this sort of practice as being negative, and too common in some places.

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You'll have to quote His Holiness.

Reading the Bible on our own, divorced from the guidance of the Magisterium, may also produce negative effects. There are Christians, including a few Catholics, who appeal to sacred Scripture to support their misguided views on female ordination, gay marriage, divorce, and contraception.

On the other hand, I think it is also out of proportion to be too harsh about such things. People in some situations, with some kinds of education or personalities, are very inclined to little pious practices, and sometimes take them very seriously. That is not at all confined to Catholics - I know plenty of Baptists that could never place another book on top of a Bible.

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I doubt Christ shall judge any of us by how ignorant or uneducated we may have been. He shall judge us by the fruits we have borne by the help of his grace. What matters is not what we believe about how we may have acquired the many infused virtues, but rather their acquisition in our souls.

PAX

justinangel said:

Have any Catholics ever told you that they believe rosary beads possess magical powers in themselves? You responded to what I described as superstitious.

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You phrased that in a way you thought would guarantee a "no" answer, didn't you? No, no Catholic has ever said to me, "These beads have magical powers." However, I have indeed had Catholics tell me that SAYING/PRAYING the rosary is a practice that is certain to produce miraculous results. They do indeed use the rosary --and think of the item itself --in a superstitious manner.

is there an amount of respect we can show to holy items that you do not see as "superstitious"?

Albion said:

You phrased that in a way you thought would guarantee a "no" answer, didn't you? No, no Catholic has ever said to me, "These beads have magical powers."

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Then why did you say that "many Catholics do in fact think of the Rosary in that way", as having 'magical powers? How could you possibly be absolutely sure if no Catholic has ever told you that. You're reasoning on a dubious assumption.

I didn't phrase anything to tailor my argument. The truth is you simply have no answer. You can only speculate.

However, I have indeed had Catholics tell me that SAYING/PRAYING the rosary is a practice that is certain to produce miraculous results. They do indeed use the rosary --and think of the item itself --in a superstitious manner.

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They think of the Rosary as a physical channel of divine grace which originates from God through the activity of the Holy Spirit. The Christians who deliberately stood in Peter's cast shadow to obtain a miracle thought of it in the same way as Catholics have of the Rosary and the bones of deceased saints and martyrs in the life of the early Church.

PAX

Dear my Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ our Saviour,

For Centuries our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God has not only been interceding for mankind during wars, averting wars, restoring Jesus' Love and Peace throughout Jesus' Earth (through the prayers of devout Catholics and Christians), in addition Mother Mary has been converting souls and leading souls back to Her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Our Heavenly Mother Mary has been saving souls here on earth from death, from the evil destruction of satan, ceasing satan and its plans (at present our Lady Mary is requesting prayers for Her Holy intentions) to Jesus and Herself. Our Blessed Virgin Mary is present to intercede with souls, of whom in particular have prayed to Her during their lives - especially Her Holy Rosary and Hail Mary Prayers; saving souls from the clutches of satan's evil spirits as souls pass over dying.

For every Our Father Prayer - this is in effect glorifying God The Most High including the Holy Words that God The Most High gave mankind contained therein. (reference: Jesus Holy words to Saint Dominic during 1214 and Alan de la Roche during 1260 delivering The Holy Rosary again after Saint Dominic died.

For every Hail Mary Prayer - this is in effect glorifying Jesus and our Lady Mary. Reference; Saint Dominic from Jesus' Holy words to him during 1214) while delivering The Holy Rosary from God The Most High.

"Ye of little Faith" - Jesus said to His Disciples and to mankind.

It is the 'personal choice' of mankind if one desires to ask our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God for Her Loving Holy intercession...now and at the hour of death...or 'not'. By not doing so, we face in all probability the wrath/firm tough eternal decision of God The Most High (often without Mercy according to Jesus in His New Testament and Divine Mercy Holy messages) and/or for those of whom are repenting sins - all sins committed during our lives - with Trust in Him - Mercy not destined is our hope - for hell eternally.

Do be aware, for one's own soul good eternally, in Jesus/God's Holy Will, that God The Most High did indeed 'Create' His Rosary bestowing it upon The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, including 'The Holy Miraculous Medal designed by God The Most High given to Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mary to selected priests of Jesus Christ our Saviour, The Holy Scapula and other Holy items Jesus Himself has delivered to Saints of whom were priests of His choice.

By sending up the Holy Images, Rosary Beads and Holy items including the debating of our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God Loving Holy Works while deterring other Christians from being awakened by Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mary, for Mother Mary leading "hearts" back to Her Son Jesus Christ our Saviour, God The Most High of Whom Blessed our Lady Mary with His Loving Holy Powers, The Holy Ros-ary (Rose-ary) Holy Rosary Beads, and all of the other Holy Images, obviously will be looking at our souls when judgement day arrives. I read a thread involving our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God yesterday in which some poster stated about people praying to our Blessed Virgin Mary as "poor Fools".

Bear in mind, those poor fools, of whom are praying for all Christians, all souls/people here on earth, through The Holy Rosary to our Heavenly Mother, will be rewarded eternally, for their efforts, through Plenary Indulgences by God The Most High (in His Holy Will) for spreading His Holy Rosary bestowed upon His Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God as attested by Jesus Christ our Saviour given to saints throughout the ages. Plenary Indulgences and Partial Indulgences are attached to Mother Mary's Holy Rosary for every person/soul of whom has taken time out of their lives to pray God The Most High's Jesus/Mother Mary's Holy Rosary.

Do Christians of whom are degrading our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and Jesus/God's Holy Images and Holy items realise the seriousness of what they are doing to their souls eternally?

If one ever happens to receive Jesus and God The Most High speaking to their heart while God The Most High in His wrath/anger is speaking, while Jesus remains quiet and/or to placate His Heavenly Father, few would sin again, nor sit on forums degrading and taking swipes at our Blessed Virgin Mary and Her Holy Roles - "Roles" - not one Holy Role - but numerous Holy Roles - deigned by God The Most High.

Some of the reasons Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mary give to mankind in relation to Jesus/God's Holy items:

1. Those of whom wear or place these pre-Blessed Holy Images and Holy items on one self are able to receive more of Jesus/God's Loving Holy protection now and at the hour of death crossing over; one of the reasons that Jesus appears in His Churches and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God appear near His Blessed Sacrament at the Altars (caught on cameras many times around the world). This is pre-Blessed by Jesus/God and satan is blocked through His Holy Blessed Cross, Holy Images and Holy items.


2. It 'Glorify's' Jesus and God The Most High of which our souls are more Blessed now and eternally.

3. It blocks satan to a high degree with interference during our lives ie safety issues.

4. Through these Holy Crosses and Images, Jesus is able to continue converting the hearts of sinners through our Blessed Virgin Mary more greatly.

God The Most High created The Holy Rosary in order that Jesus deliver it through Saint Dominic and a few of His priests selected during 1214 and later again during 1260. Since then, Jesus and our Lady Mary have chosen other people to spread The Holy Rosary as the PRIMARY Weapon against satan of which Jesus/God and our Lady Mary are able to answer every Holy Rosary prayed from mankind with Plenary Indulgences granted for those of whom PRAY The Holy Rosary focussing on Jesus and His bitter Passion and Sorrowful Stations of His Cross.

One of the reasons priests use "pre-Blessed" Holy Rosary beads during exorcisms - a prayer handed down from the days in Rome (Pope Leo) and other popes of whom received Jesus speaking to their hearts and appearing to them including priests and bishops is that satan cannot abide The Holy Rosary nor Holy Rosary beads - the greatest Weapon against satan while used with The Exorcism Prayer recorded by Pope Leo the Great.

I suggest Christians view the amount of Saints that Jesus Himself and our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God have appeared to throughout the ages with similar Holy messages and whereby Jesus has requested people/souls to turn to His Mother beseeching our Virgin Mary Mother of God through Her Holy Rosary.


All explained to not only Saint Dominic - to date - through thousands of Saints and individuals that Jesus and our Lady Mary have called upon to pray in fervour - myself several times a day with Fasting - until Mother Mary allowed me to receive Jesus speaking to my heart. (3 years ago) daily.

WE as Christians, regardless of denominations, need to at least pray to Jesus and our Lady Mary The Our Father's (the Paternoster 150 Our Father's) if possible - for not only one's own causes - for world causes.

Praying The Hail Mary's (ten at a go if one can) to Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mary.

The Divine Mercy Chaplet just once during our lives, The Glory Be to The Father, The Holy Rosary (for those of whom are former Catholics and/or those new to the Church).

Consecrating my heart to Jesus' Sacred Heart forever and consecrating my heart to our Blessed Virgin Mary's Immaculate Heart allows Jesus and our Lady Mary to more greatly flow His Loving Holy Wisdom Guidance and Enlightenment through our hearts and minds with us receiving Jesus into our hearts IF trusting fully in Him.

We are accountable for the comments made about Jesus/God/ and our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God. Make no mistake about this. The criticisms of all Holy articles that God The Most High Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mary have given to mankind for their souls to be Blessed at the hour of death (wearing these or having these next to ones bed while dying) allows Jesus and our Lady Mary to block the wrath of God and/or cease evil spirits claiming the dying persons souls passing over.

January/February 2014

God The Most High boomed His Holy Voice when Jesus was speaking to me back in January and February while I was praying both The Holy Rosary and Jesus Divine Mercy Chaplet saying: "Heretics"! "Blasphemers" - they will pay! They have destroyed my Earth". God The Most High was not happy with me about something and Jesus shielded me against His anger. Fear God The Most High is my encouragement to all - God is far from happy with mankind (myself included), far from happy about what we have all done to His Planet, and far from happy about Blasphemy against Him most of all.

We are all accountable to God and His wrath without Jesus' Mercy (Jesus' Divine Mercy).

God our Creator loves 'His Children' - those of whom are obeying His Commandments.

I urge every Christian to realise that without Jesus' Mercy our souls are in serious trouble (in Jesus/Gods Holy Will).

If I had not experienced what my Heavenly Mother Mary has done often saving my life, during my 51 years of life, through Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit, I would not be bothered posting on CF to share and encouraging others to pray to our Lady Mary Mother of God.

Lets face it, life is busy, for most of us, and I am doing Holy Callings/Missionary tasks for Jesus and our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and others with all the Glory entirely Yours Dear God our Heavenly Father.

God The Most High's Holy Rosary that He indeed Gifted our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and mankind to pray, should assist people of whom have not prayed to our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God Her Holy Ros-ary (Rose-ary - a Holy Crown of Roses that God The Most High Blessed our Heavenly Mother Mary for mankind to pray) of which Jesus Christ our Saviour delivered Himself to Saint Dominic during 1214 and Blessed Alan De la Roche (another priest).

For those interested in knowing some facts, try reading "The Secret of The Rosary" by Saint Lois De Montfort online or ordering the books from Saint Benedict Press in NC. Some of Jesus Christ our Saviour's Holy words to Blessed Alan de la Roche after Saint Dominic during his life had spread The Holy Rosary to be prayed to our Lady Mary (by Jesus):

One day when he was saying Mass our Lord who wished to spur him on to preach The Holy Rosary, spoke to him in the Sacred Host "How can you crucify Me again so soon? Jesus asked. "What did You say Lord?" asked Blessed Alan.

"You crucified Me once before by your sins", answered Jesus

"And I would willingly be crucified again rather than have My Father offended by the sins you used to commit. You are crucifying Me again now because you have all the learning and understanding that you need to preach My Mother's Rosary and you are not doing so. If you only did this, you could teach many souls the right path and lead them away from sin - but you are not doing it and so you yourself are guilty of the sins that they commit".

This terrible reproach made Blessed Alan solemnly resolve to preach The Rosary unceasingly.

(The whole series of books features all of the many many priests Children and Saints - some unknown - of whom Jesus has appeared including The Blessed Virgin Mary together and separately to preach The Holy Rosary given to mankind by God our Heavenly Father).

The Secret of the Rosary - Part 1

(The Secret of The Rosary - Part I)

The secret of the Rosary

(Some excerpts of Saint Louis De Montforts book on Jesus, our Lady Mary and Saint Dominic).

The Holy Rosary

nobility.org/2013/08/08/dominic-guzman


St Dominic & the Rosary | Catholic-Pages.com

Below are just a few of the many youtube links to Father Patrick Peyton from Ireland then of the USA whom was called to spread The Holy Rosary during his life that may be of interest to those debating about our Love, Respect and Reverance for our Heavenly Mother Mary and Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Loving Holy instructions through his priests to spread our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy Rosary to mankind praying to Her directly.

FamilyRosaryVideo - YouTube

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Peyton

Father Patrick Peyton, CSC ? Home

There are SO many Saints and others around the world including Catholics and Christians praying The Holy Rosary despite belonging to other faiths, with thousands of testimonies that every time people pray to Our Blessed Virgin Mary Her Holy Rosary - they are healed by Jesus Christ our Saviour/God and their hearts converted for life to Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit and our Heavenly Mother Mary.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

Zeek said:

Although I do not accept a number of Catholic teachings and some of their traditions, I fully recognize that many Catholics are my brethren and we share the same Spirit. (the reason I don't say 'all' is simply because there are many so called Protestants and Catholics that are Church goers and religious, but have not entered into a relationship with G-d)

Having said that I am writing this thread out of grave concern of some things I saw in OBOB, which I would have immediately challenged in the past, but have come to realise that to do so in OBOB would not be appropriate.

I feel so strongly about what I read on there in the thread entitled 'Thinking about converting, any advice' by Mark Kennedy, that I feel the necessity to unburden myself here.

To some extent I have seen Catholic teaching on Mary as being a bit excessive and over the top...good that there is a focus on her and to give more acknowledgement on her role as mother of the L-rd, but not so good that she is given speculative titles and a degree of honour that goes beyond what is biblical or acceptable.

I was also aware that some Catholics went even further, although I have presumed they were a small minority, and that they would have been challenged by other Catholics who felt they went a step too far.

This is what I read in that thread. Post #11 by SCIM. PM

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The rosary is indeed optional. It's one of the best options out there, but it is optional. But I believe you must be careful not to let your words mislead others. The rosary is optional but Marian devotion is most certainly not. All of the great saints and spiritual writers have spoken consistently on this point. A devotion to Our Blessed Lady is most necessary to salvation.

For those wishing to convert and embrace the Catholic faith, they must be encouraged to develop their devotion to Our Lady, as all Catholics must. Because if you do not love Mary, you cannot love Jesus. If you have no love for Our Lady, and do not let her enter into your heart, then you are not a Catholic.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.

....................................................................................
Extracts from post #15

As the great scholastic doctor Saint Bnonaventure said, no one "can enter into Heaven except through Mary, as entering through a gate."

. Every great spiritual author teaches us that we must have Mary in our hearts. Will this scare many Protestants? Very likely.

But I want those Protestants to be Catholic, not Protestants with a liturgical veneer wholly absent of Catholic spirituality.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
SCIM.
............................................

This is 100% idolatry, this is 'adding to the Gospel, this is teaching something that is not of G-d, I'd even go so far as to say this works in opposition to the truth and will bring a snare, a burden and condemnation to the person that embraces this sort of teaching.

IMO, this is an attempt to make Catholicism completely distinct from Protestantism through the elevation of Mary as Co-Redeemer, and the unabashed glorification of Mary and to rejoice in the difference because the stamp of true Catholicism is to be wholly devoted to Mary.

IMO this goes beyond any traditions of the Church and is an overt attempt to take Catholicism into another dimension...it is the promotion of a Marian agenda and is being fed to Catholics in much the same way that fundamental Islam is fed to the so-called moderate Moslems....it is extremly worrying.

I'd particularly be interested in hearing some Catholic friends response to this, and I am hoping that there are some Catholics that will make a distinction and not be afraid of voicing what they feel is right, rather than closing ranks and thinking this is just the Protestant reaction that was anticipated by SCIM.

I don't generally litter my posts with Scriptures and references as I hope most readers will know chapter and verse, but when it is necessary then I will certainly include relevant texts.

Click to expand...

I understand and share deep concern .
such a statement as" -cannot enter heaven except through mary- is outrightly erroneous ,unscriptural and diametrically opposed to the Gospel.
-----


my stance.-caution may offend some- which is why i dont post in or even go to obob .

-mary was chosen because .. she was to be josephs wife(line of david) no other reason.. she was blessed by this eventuality but in no other manner special.being born of flesh and blood from the sinful blood of Adam.
-she became the one(the vessel) through whom the bodily manifestation of God was born forth into the world .and as that vessel, became the mother of
Jesus.. the "man"(flesh and blood) .
For God is eternal and the most high ,thus there is none before him nor after him.Hence she is not the mother of God.-for she has a point of origin in him ,not him in her.The very use of the term "mother of God" or "queen of heaven" in reference to this created being mary,i find both repugnant and blasphemous ,in that it elevates the created over the creator.and that is idolatry. -scripture shows God also detests such titles.

-there is no direct unambiguous scripture to support claim of continued virginity .it remains an unsubstantiated opinion by those devoted to her veneration (a word which means,by dictionary and definition, "worship")
-that she was a virgin when that which is "of the holy ghost" (not of her) was conceived in her is indisputable by nature of its necessity to the salvation of man .In that,the blood of adam in her does not pass into the baby in the womb (fact a mother and baby can be differing blood type if a mothers blood passed into the babies blood stream it could kill the child)
hence the lord jesus was not born of ,or in any manner mingled with, the sinful blood of the line of adam in mary.He was born without sin.

- every word spoken by the Spirit of God (for Jesus said " I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." absolutely and irrevocably denies any necessitation of any form of the veneration of mary or need of her name in regard to the salvation of mankind .
to even suggest it is to suggest the Lord Jesus lied.
-those who preach it must repent.
--------------------------

veneration does not mean worship. veneration means great respect; reverence. Maybe you can show me where the Bible says to follow it alone

yes- ignore the point and argue the surrounding semantics .but give zero direct unambiguous scriptural reference in support.
This is almost the typical response.

God said - "This is my beloved son ..listen to HIM" so it is most advantageous to obey God and listen only to his manifest word whose name is Jesus.

the lord Jesus said " no man comes to the father but through me ?
did he lie ..yes or no?
did he mention mary- yes or no?

let your yes be yes and your no be no.

-------------------------------
a fine line and utterly ambiguous argument..


worship:

1.reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage:
They attended worship this morning.
3.
adoring reverence or regard:
excessive worship of business success.
4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.

veneration:

noun
1.
the act of venerating.
2.
the state of being venerated.
3.
the feeling of a person who venerates; a feeling of awe, respect, etc.;
reverence:
They were filled with veneration for their priests.
4.
an expression of this feeling:
A memorial was erected in veneration of the dead of both world wars.

Word Origin and History for veneration Expand
n.
early 15c., from Middle French veneration,
from Latin venerationem (nominative veneratio) "reverence,"
from past participle stem of venerari "to worship, revere,"
from venus (genitive veneris) "beauty, love, desire"

Yet there is no support in the Bible where it says follow the Bible alone but when one points out this tradition of man, one gets blasted. When one points out the fault in a bad definition one gets blasted.

michaelmynameIs said:

I understand and share deep concern .
such a statement as" -cannot enter heaven except through mary- is outrightly erroneous ,unscriptural and diametrically opposed to the Gospel.
-----


my stance.-caution may offend some- which is why i dont post in or even go to obob .

-mary was chosen because .. she was to be josephs wife(line of david) no other reason.. she was blessed by this eventuality but in no other manner special.being born of flesh and blood from the sinful blood of Adam.
-she became the one(the vessel) through whom the bodily manifestation of God was born forth into the world .and as that vessel, became the mother of
Jesus.. the "man"(flesh and blood) .
For God is eternal and the most high ,thus there is none before him nor after him.Hence she is not the mother of God.-for she has a point of origin in him ,not him in her.The very use of the term "mother of God" or "queen of heaven" in reference to this created being mary,i find both repugnant and blasphemous ,in that it elevates the created over the creator.and that is idolatry. -scripture shows God also detests such titles.

-there is no direct unambiguous scripture to support claim of continued virginity .it remains an unsubstantiated opinion by those devoted to her veneration (a word which means,by dictionary and definition, "worship")
-that she was a virgin when that which is "of the holy ghost" (not of her) was conceived in her is indisputable by nature of its necessity to the salvation of man .In that,the blood of adam in her does not pass into the baby in the womb (fact a mother and baby can be differing blood type if a mothers blood passed into the babies blood stream it could kill the child)
hence the lord jesus was not born of ,or in any manner mingled with, the sinful blood of the line of adam in mary.He was born without sin.

- every word spoken by the Spirit of God (for Jesus said " I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." absolutely and irrevocably denies any necessitation of any form of the veneration of mary or need of her name in regard to the salvation of mankind .
to even suggest it is to suggest the Lord Jesus lied.
-those who preach it must repent.
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One needs to be aware that many Christians [including Protestants like Lutheran and Anglican] affirm Mary's perpetual virginity, role as Mother of God and who prays for all Christians]. The other issues such as immaculate conception, assumption into heaven we approach with neutrality.

EvangelCatholic said:

One needs to be aware that many Christians [including Protestants like Lutheran and Anglican] affirm Mary's perpetual virginity, role as Mother of God and who prays for all Christians]. The other issues such as immaculate conception, assumption into heaven we approach with neutrality.

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the affirmation of mere infallible men does not and cannot replace what is plainly written.

to just suddenly say .."these groups believe it" does not automatically make them right.
im a 66 book bible believer.. the scriptures do not support the claim. it remains a non scriptural unsubstantiated opinion of some. Dont give me ambiguity from external sources of infallibility.. Give me direct scripture.

michaelmynameIs said:

the affirmation of mere infallible men does not and cannot replace what is plainly written.

to just suddenly say .."these groups believe it" does not automatically make them right.
im a 66 book bible believer.. the scriptures do not support the claim. it remains a non scriptural unsubstantiated opinion of some. Dont give me ambiguity from external sources of infallibility.. Give me direct scripture.

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I am not biblical literalistic nor do I consider all devotion to God needing biblical proof. The early Church Councils view the blessed Virgin in ways that many Christians affirm but it is not necessary for salvation to believe some of the Marian doctrines except, of-course, the virgin-birth of Christ.