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[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]No, what I said was anchoring your morals to the past is. If we didnt let go of the past we would still be living in the dark ages, progress requires change what is confusing about this?[/FONT]
I'm not sure because I have explained That God gave these commands and they were not "rules" created to govern an ancient civilization.
[FONT="]Who killed Christ? (The roman government) God said that He put all governments in power and gave them the authority to govern themselves. This means it is OK for them to make war and to execute prisioners[/FONT][FONT="]Who has the power to sanction the killing?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]The bible.[/FONT][FONT="]If you say God then how does he let us know?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Who gave the court the ability to issue the death penalty?[FONT="] As far as I am aware Gods voice has never sounded in a court room before the death penalty was given.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]This is what you believe my argument says. I'm trying to help you understand what i am actually saying. In the case of Murder (the unsanctioned taking of Human life) It is always wrong. However not every "killing" is murder.[/FONT][FONT="]So we arent really debating anything are we? I thought you were saying we need absolute moral rules such as do not kill.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]I also separated God's righteousness from "man's morality." God's righteousness can never be obtained by man. Man's "morality" was an attempt to achieve God's righteousness +/- the sins he is willing to live with. Morality is not righteousness. Morality is what we call our version of god's righteousness. In a sense all men are moral because All men justify their actions.[FONT="]Your point is that you dont need to even know the commandments in order to be moral? I think that is my point, that we are inherently moral![/FONT]
Do you believe the Nazi's thought themselves to be "immoral?"
[/FONT][FONT="]Again you miss the segregation between God's righteousness and man's morality. you are attempting to judge God's righteousness by your own version of morality.. So of course their is a discrepancy. What I find ironic that most of you all (all who think this way) do not see is that you are using the very same approach to judgment that God uses, but without absolutely no authority. In other words you are judging the actions of another (Like God would) but without the power or authority to do so. And when you run up on God's authority to do so, you question it, but not your own actions or deeds that mirror His.[/FONT][FONT="]I would see your point if you couldnt plainly see what is written in the Bible. God orders the genocide of entire cities, every man woman and child as just one example. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Such as?[FONT="]I agree it is society that dictates the moral code of the age, which is exactly why morals have changed from biblical times and why anchoring your morals to the past doesnt allow for improvement. Improvement because clearly western society is advancing, which means you are choosing to ignore the out-dated parts of the bible.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Then allow me. Because you are, or have subjected yourself to the morality of popular culture without question. Because of this it is most likely that no matter what popular culture will dictate you will fall in without question. [/FONT][FONT="]Because it is an impossible question to answer.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]You seem to want to dismiss or ignore all that would contest "modern society." I would guess Even if that "Modern Society" was apart of the Third Reich. Because if all you can base your "morality" on is your peers then it would follow that if your peers were Nazis then you too would be a Nazi. How else do you think an entire nation of people that span the whole Continent of Europe 1/3 of Asia and parts of North Africa took power?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]By objectively looking at your current behavior ques, and drawing parallels between the two societies.[/FONT][FONT="]How could I know how I would have behaved?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]As I pointed out it wasn't just Germany. Christianity had nothing to do with Hitler's plans. [/FONT][FONT="] and It was a terrible event in German history, which was largely acted by Christians. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Actually no. Hitler came to power because Germany was under a chrushing debt that they were made to pay from the first world war. They paid this debt to banks in Europe. Most of which were owned and controlled by Jews. Whether their was impropriety or not the general consensus was that the Jewish held banks were keeping Germany in a debt that they could never repay. This spawned the hatred to wards the Jews. The hate the Germans had was from a 20 year "great depression" that the whole of the country suffered from.[/FONT][FONT="]In fact Hitler often played on the Christian prejudice felt to wards Jews (for killing Jesus) to rally hatred against them. [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Using what? The only reason You can look back and decipher the actions of the Nazi's as bad is because an opposing society won the conflict. (that is if you do not have a standard like we have in the bible.)[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]Does this point the finger of blame to wards Christians? NO! It suggests to me that morals can be altered, so it is societies responsibility to maintain the moral code of the time. [/FONT]
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[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]For example what if the bible was written by Nazi-minded individuals 2000 years ago? [/FONT]
[FONT="]The bible was written by God.[/FONT]
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[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]Would that mean we should follow it? [/FONT]
[FONT="]If God wrote the bible Yes.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Again if your version of common sense can only be derived from your peers then you are locked into popular culture to define what "common sense" is.[/FONT][FONT="]Or would you suggest using common sense to see that it is wrong? [/FONT]
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[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]I prefer the latter and prefer it if individuals think for themselves.[/FONT]
[FONT="]But that's just it.. You are NOT thinking for yourself. You are thinking what your neighbors are telling you to think.[/FONT]
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[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] Because "morality" is a subjective term. Just like the Nazi's found themselves to be moral, you too have found yourself to be moral. Now because you have convinced yourself of your morality, all that oppose your morality has to be deemed "evil." Even God.[/FONT][FONT="]..[/FONT][FONT="]Quite an average person, yet even I can see the immorality in the bible.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Because my "morality" is not derived from my own sense of righteousness nor the righteousness of my peers.[/FONT][FONT="]Why cant you?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Why do you choose to ignore the terrible crimes committed by GodJust because "you" (some average guy) label something you do not understand a "crime" does not make it one.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]What have I reinterpreted?[FONT="]and reinterpret anything you can plainly see is outdated?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]You are not using this term correctly. [/FONT][FONT="]What moral guidance has God given us?[/FONT]
[FONT="]God has given us His expressed righteousness in the bible.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]Because slavery is not a sin. How you treat a slave can be. We are all slaves to one degree or another, it just has become unpopular to admit it. as such there must be rules to govern slavery (even though "we" do not like to admit our slavery.)[/FONT][FONT="]His own actions are terrible in the bible and he hasnt updated any of his rules on slavery [/FONT]
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[FONT="]Because Homosexuality is a sin, one like any other. "sinners" do not have rights. They have or can have atonement for their sins.[/FONT][FONT="]or homosexual rights [/FONT]
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[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]or even equality for women. [/FONT]
Women have a tremendous role to play in the cohesion of our society. If we eliminate this role, then the Family God established fails. If your goal is the destruction of the family then blurring the roles between men and women is the way to do it. Since God does not want the family unit he establish to fail, he has no reason to "update" this rule.
[FONT="][FONT="]If all of our morals came from God he has been a bit late in letting us know the new order, so humans have done it for themselves.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
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[FONT="]Nope.[/FONT][FONT="]Is there any evil in heaven? [/FONT]
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[FONT="]We have freedom of choice but we do not have the ability to sin.[/FONT][FONT="]Do we have free will in heaven?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]at one point they did. [/FONT]Do angels have free will?
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[FONT="]I do agree.[/FONT][FONT="]Anyway if you admit God wont help, then that shows humans need to take a stand and decide for ourselves how we want to live.[/FONT]
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[FONT="]As I have pointed out over and over and over and over "Morality" is a subjective term. so no there isn't anything you have to do according to your "moral" standards. Because in the end you can just change what you think morality is.[/FONT][FONT="]Do any of your examples have anything to do with morals?[/FONT]
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[FONT="]I agree "MORALITY" will change over time, but God's righteousness does not.[/FONT][FONT="]My argument is merely that society evolves through time, absolute morals do not really exist without exceptions.[/FONT]
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[FONT="][FONT="] You havent provided any examples to counter the argument.[/FONT]
You don't seem to understand the argument being discussed.
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Am I right in thinking that the sin of gluttony literally means, don't eat too much?
Or does it also just mean don't be greedy with all possessions?
you are effectively eating someone else's food.
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