The sin of gluttony

[Curious Atheist]

Am I right in thinking that the sin of gluttony literally means, don't eat too much? Or does it also just mean don't be greedy with all possessions?

If it does indeed mean don't eat too much, and if you believe God gave us enough to go around (if we learnt how to share) you are effectively eating someone else's food.

So if you are overweight are you a sinner and will go to hell? This isn't like other sins you can do by mistake and ask for forgiveness, becoming obese means you knowingly over eat daily for years defying God's word.

So how many of you are obese/over weight? Statistically speaking 90% of Americans are Christian and up to 86% are over weight. So surely something is wrong here?

I am interested to hear the justification for this one, it seems a tricky one to get out of!

 

[Peacedove]

I believe gluttony is over indulgence in anything. It is a sin to over indulge but remember that we have an advocate in Jesus. If we all went to hell because we committed sin then there would not be many of us in heaven. Jesus came to save us but the perfecting comes later.

 

[razeontherock]

This is one of those subjects that really makes me raise an eyebrow at many social customs that go along with established organizations. I don't mean to offend my dear Brothers and Sisters who belong to organized religion, but it is possible to practice Christianity in such a way that for the most part, the only thing you have to look forward to in this life is eating. And groups that practice that way tend to be overweight for the most part. This goes against Scripture in many ways! Proverbs tell us wisdom will keep you fit and attractive. The Blessing of Abraham includes the fact this his wife was downright hot into her 60's ...

 

[Lukaris]

I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 can answer much of your question. Obviously an individual over indulging on occasion is not what the Lord has an issue with.

 

[drich0150]

Am I right in thinking that the sin of gluttony literally means, don't eat too much?

Gluttony is a precept that is looked down upon, but is not defined in the NT as a sin. In fact The Pharisees accused Christ as being a glutton.

Or does it also just mean don't be greedy with all possessions?

Greed is a separate sin all together.

If it does indeed mean don't eat too much, and if you believe God gave us enough to go around (if we learnt how to share) you are effectively eating someone else's food.

Their is not only enough, we have the capacity to make all of us "gluttons."

So if you are overweight are you a sinner and will go to hell?

If gluttony was a sin it would be a sin like any other. as such would be atoned for by the blood of Christ for those who would repent of this would be sin.

This isn't like other sins you can do by mistake and ask for forgiveness, becoming obese means you knowingly over eat daily for years defying God's word.

Sinning and Asking for forgiveness is not how repentance works.

So how many of you are obese/over weight? Statistically speaking 90% of Americans are Christian and up to 86% are over weight. So surely something is wrong here?

Indeed. You did not ask why those who are over weight are over weight. You just assumed that the reasons are all the same. Ever surveyed a dollar menu? Ever asked who eats this stuff every day? Who feeds their kids this stuff everyday? Ever ask why?
Or do you assume that eating "healthy" is an option for everyone as it is for you?

I am interested to hear the justification for this one, it seems a tricky one to get out of!

Only if you do not understand the precepts in which you rain down your accusations.

 

[linssue55]

Am I right in thinking that the sin of gluttony literally means, don't eat too much? Or does it also just mean don't be greedy with all possessions?

If it does indeed mean don't eat too much, and if you believe God gave us enough to go around (if we learnt how to share) you are effectively eating someone else's food.

So if you are overweight are you a sinner and will go to hell? This isn't like other sins you can do by mistake and ask for forgiveness, becoming obese means you knowingly over eat daily for years defying God's word.

So how many of you are obese/over weight? Statistically speaking 90% of Americans are Christian and up to 86% are over weight. So surely something is wrong here?

I am interested to hear the justification for this one, it seems a tricky one to get out of!

You are correct....


Isa 22:13 Instead, there is gaiety and gladness, Killing of cattle and slaughtering of sheep, Eating of meat and drinking of wine: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we may die." (gluttony)

{Proverbs Chapter 6:16-19 -
The seven greatest sins in the Eyes of Jehovah/God}
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]16-19~~These six things does Jehovah/God hate.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {sane' - means to abhor something that is 'ugly'}[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Yes, seven are an abomination unto Him: 17~~[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{1} a proud look,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {Pride - category of mental attitude sin}[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{2} a lying tongue, and[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {Lying - category of sins of the tongue}[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{3} hands that shed innocent blood[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {Murder - category of overt sins}, 18~~[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{4} a 'right frontal lobe'/heart that devises wicked imaginations[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {hatred -mental attitude sin},[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{5} feet that be swift in running to mischief[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {idiom for 'gossip' - sin of the tongue}, 19~~[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{6} a false witness that speaks lies, and[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {perjury in a court setting - sin of the tongue},[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{7} he that sows discord among brethren.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2] {maligning/inciting revolution - trouble makers - sin of the tongue - goes house to house}[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: Syntactically, these verses show that in the Eyes of Jehovah/God, mental attitude sins are the worst to Him. And, as opposed to what our human viewpoint says, only one overt sin is HIGH on His list of the worst sins. Pride is first! And was Satan's first sin! There are 2 mental attitude sins, 4 sins of the tongue, and only 1 overt sin in the list of worst!}[/FONT]​

 

[AlexBP]

Am I right in thinking that the sin of gluttony literally means, don't eat too much? Or does it also just mean don't be greedy with all possessions?

If it does indeed mean don't eat too much, and if you believe God gave us enough to go around (if we learnt how to share) you are effectively eating someone else's food.

So if you are overweight are you a sinner and will go to hell?

All correct except the last five words. Jesus has carried the sins of all of humanity by His act of restitution on the cross, hence sinners no longer need to go to hell.

Nonetheless, gluttony is a sin. Doubtlessly it doesn't get as much attention these days as it should, because too many ministers and other Christians are bowing to popular pressure and not speaking about parts of the gospel that would disturb their audience too much. It's worth nothing that back when everyone was well aware of the sinfulness of gluttony, we had much lower rates of obesity. The secular world has eliminated the concept of sin and replaced it with five thousand programs for dieting and exercise and other tactics of weight loss, and since then the waistlines have been expanding at an amazing rate.

 

[JasperJackson]

Allow me to give a personal perspective.

When I was saved nearly 4 years ago I weighed 370 lbs. Now, you don't get to be that big without some serious gluttony in your life (unless perhaps you have a thyroid condition, but that's a small percentage of the population, and does not include me, so let's move on).

It took quite a while for me to even realise it to be a sin. After all, with so many obese people in the western world, it has become one of the many sins that are broadly tolerated by society. But scripture is clear that gluttony is a sin and the holy spirit has convicted me of that. I'm also grateful that one of the fruits of the holy spirit is self-control and so at the moment I am currently losing weight much easier than when I've tried before (currently 345 lbs - long way to go).

And to echo what others have said, I'm so grateful for God's grace in that right now I AM saved. God is not waiting for me to sort out this sin in my life before he accepts me. He's accepted me now, given me His Spirit which is enabling me to (slowly) overcome a lifetime of sin - gluttony and others.

 

[GrayAngel]

Sin is anything that is less than perfection. Anything we do not is not best for ourselves qualifies as a sin. Actually, most of the Ten Commandments were given for our own benefit. Why do we honor our parents? So we can live a long and peaceful life, as opposed to dishonoring one's parents, causing them grief and corrupting your heart with anger.

Gluttony is a sin because is lessens both the quality and quantity of life. Being obese, however, does not mean you're going to Hell. We're all destined for Hell by default, but anyone who is under Christ's grace will find forgiveness in the midst of their sin. No one will ever be good enough in this life to stop sinning completely.

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]Am I right in thinking that the sin of gluttony literally means, don't eat too much?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Gluttony is a precept that is looked down upon, but is not defined in the NT as a sin. In fact The Pharisees accused Christ as being a glutton.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I thought it was one of the deadly sins? I must be wrong, thanks.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Or does it also just mean don't be greedy with all possessions?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Greed is a separate sin all together.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So Gluttony is just referring to food, no worries.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If it does indeed mean don't eat too much, and if you believe God gave us enough to go around (if we learnt how to share) you are effectively eating someone else's food.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Their is not only enough, we have the capacity to make all of us "gluttons."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not with our current technology, I think I heard to get everyone on the planet living to the same standard as ‘the West’ we would need 4X the resources the Earth can provide. We are very fortunate to have been born in the countries we have, precious few even have water never mind enough food to get fat on. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So if you are overweight are you a sinner and will go to hell?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If gluttony was a sin it would be a sin like any other. as such would be atoned for by the blood of Christ for those who would repent of this would be sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But doesn’t that logic mean that there is no real sin. Or at least no sin you really need to worry about because you are guaranteed forgiveness? I can understand making a mistake, but something like gluttony takes daily continual effort so it can hardly be argued to be a mistake.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This isn't like other sins you can do by mistake and ask for forgiveness, becoming obese means you knowingly over eat daily for years defying God's word. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sinning and Asking for forgiveness is not how repentance works.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I would imagine you would really need to be sorry before being forgiven? That’s why I would consider gluttony different to a normal sin which could be bad judgement at the time.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Indeed. You did not ask why those who are over weight are over weight. You just assumed that the reasons are all the same. Ever surveyed a dollar menu? Ever asked who eats this stuff every day? Who feeds their kids this stuff everyday? Ever ask why?
Or do you assume that eating "healthy" is an option for everyone as it is for you?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I wouldn’t want to judge people to be honest, remember I am an atheist and don’t see gluttony as a sin. If people want to be overweight then so be it, it doesn’t mean I agree but I wouldn’t condemn anyone for living life their own way. I am lucky to have the option to choose what I eat, I do understand that this isn’t the same for all or even many people in the world. I really do appreciate how lucky I am so don’t assume I don’t. However from a purely Christian point of view Gluttony is a sin, so I am curious why so few acknowledge this, it seems just another example of interpreting scripture in a bias way to justify your own lifestyle (not YOU, just generally). It’s why I asked why more Christians aren’t missionaries also, there seem to be a lot of messages that are overlooked yet well-known at the same time. It doesn’t add up to me you can be so blasé about the rules and still be forgiven, it seems to leading a good life isn’t really important as long as you ask for forgiveness before you die. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am interested to hear the justification for this one, it seems a tricky one to get out of![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Only if you do not understand the precepts in which you rain down your accusations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I didn’t mean to offend anyone, sorry if you feel I am ‘raining down accusations’ on people who love food! I don’t think it’s wrong to like food, I am just asking about the Christian perspective of what constitutes a sin and why gluttony as a rule doesn’t seem to have much weight anymore.[/FONT]

 

[Curious Atheist]

Allow me to give a personal perspective.

When I was saved nearly 4 years ago I weighed 370 lbs. Now, you don't get to be that big without some serious gluttony in your life (unless perhaps you have a thyroid condition, but that's a small percentage of the population, and does not include me, so let's move on).

It took quite a while for me to even realise it to be a sin. After all, with so many obese people in the western world, it has become one of the many sins that are broadly tolerated by society. But scripture is clear that gluttony is a sin and the holy spirit has convicted me of that. I'm also grateful that one of the fruits of the holy spirit is self-control and so at the moment I am currently losing weight much easier than when I've tried before (currently 345 lbs - long way to go).

And to echo what others have said, I'm so grateful for God's grace in that right now I AM saved. God is not waiting for me to sort out this sin in my life before he accepts me. He's accepted me now, given me His Spirit which is enabling me to (slowly) overcome a lifetime of sin - gluttony and others.

Well done, it must be really difficult to make a change so I hope it goes well!
Why do you think it has become socially accepted when other sins of the bible are still upheld? That's all I am really asking, I hope you didn't think I was looking down on anyone or having a go, because like my last reply I don't personally see over-eating as a sin.

 

[JasperJackson]

Well done, it must be really difficult to make a change so I hope it goes well!
Why do you think it has become socially accepted when other sins of the bible are still upheld? That's all I am really asking, I hope you didn't think I was looking down on anyone or having a go, because like my last reply I don't personally see over-eating as a sin.

Why? I don't know. But I think it's just a side effect of not focussing enough on God. Without God (atheists and nominal/lukewarm "Christians"), you don't have moral absolutes - you can't say definitively whether something is right or wrong, and so your moral compass just ebbs and flows all over the place. Right now, society seems to be ok with obesity. Perhaps when the nations hospital bills go through the roof in treating all the health impacts of obesity society's opinion will change again.

 

[razeontherock]

But doesn’t that logic mean that there is no real sin. Or at least no sin you really need to worry about because you are guaranteed forgiveness?

This is an interesting tidbit. Ever hear of a reprobate mind? As near as I can tell, a self-professing Christian who has the attitude you ask about here is reprobate. I like to think this is not a permanent disowning by the Father, but a temporary discipline, as Nebuchadnezzar gives us an example of. It's a pretty common occurrence on CF that someone worries they are reprobate, and it's easy to minister to them because they care abut these things, meaning they in fact are not reprobate.

But there is real danger to the type of thinking you ask about here!

 

[Curious Atheist]

Why? I don't know. But I think it's just a side effect of not focussing enough on God. Without God (atheists and nominal/lukewarm "Christians"), you don't have moral absolutes - you can't say definitively whether something is right or wrong, and so your moral compass just ebbs and flows all over the place. Right now, society seems to be ok with obesity. Perhaps when the nations hospital bills go through the roof in treating all the health impacts of obesity society's opinion will change again.

Movies show us the bad guys deal with absolutes and the good guys don't . (The Jedi vs Sith!)

Absolutes lead to fundamentalism and bad decisions. For example is it always wrong to kill? The bible may suggest so, but what if you could kill Hitler in the knowledge you would save millions of lives? There are always exceptions to the rule so you need to judge each situation individually. Also Morality is only relevant to human beings so morals change over time. If we stuck to the old morals of biblical times then slavery would still be morally acceptable as well as many other barbaric 'norms'. I personally see Sharia law as immoral and sexist, because I have been brought up to think we are all equal with equal rights. I don't see any benefit in clinging to Sharia law in the modern world as our culture is slowing becoming more civilised and 'softer' in a way. I like the way things are going, it would be interesting to glimpse in to the future and see where it may lead.

 

[drich0150]

Movies show us the bad guys deal with absolutes and the good guys don't . (The Jedi vs Sith!)

Aren't movies apart of popular culture? History shows that aligning your morality with popular culture is not always a good idea.

Absolutes lead to fundamentalism and bad decisions. For example is it always wrong to kill? The bible may suggest so, but what if you could kill Hitler in the knowledge you would save millions of lives?

The bible says it's always wrong to murder their is a huge difference between killing and murder.

There are always exceptions to the rule so you need to judge each situation individually. Also Morality is only relevant to human beings so morals change over time. If we stuck to the old morals of biblical times then slavery would still be morally acceptable as well as many other barbaric 'norms'.

That is exactly what morality is. Man's attempt to readjust God stated righteousness to allow for the sins "good people" find acceptable. So you can have your morality, so long and you do not fall into the illusion it is comparable to the standard of God.

I personally see Sharia law as immoral and sexist, because I have been brought up to think we are all equal with equal rights. I don't see any benefit in clinging to Sharia law in the modern world as our culture is slowing becoming more civilized and 'softer' in a way. I like the way things are going, it would be interesting to glimpse in to the future and see where it may lead.

For this we can look into the past and see how prejudice and popular culture dictated a "moral" doctrine for a society, and get some sense of how this might proceed.

what if Hitler won the war, and "you were brought up to think" that Jews and the physically or mentally challenged were bad? Would you fall in to popular culture as you are now? Or would an absolute standard like the bible be a guiding light in societal darkness?

Without "absolutes" we have no measure of what is right or wrong really is. We would only have what society is willing to justify or condemn. That is a sliding scale of ever more depraved behavior.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Aren't movies apart of popular culture? History shows that aligning your morality with popular culture is not always a good idea.

I meant that as a bit of a joke really, but it is true culture does change over time and the trend shows we are becoming more civilised. So anchoring your moral decisions based on the past is counter-productive. It gives a sense of 'you are with us or against us'.

The bible says it's always wrong to murder their is a huge difference between killing and murder.

Can you elaborate on this? How is killing Hitler not murdering him? In both instances you are taking a life, if you argue that it is not murder because it's for the greater good then you aren't using absolutes.

That is exactly what morality is. Man's attempt to readjust God stated righteousness to allow for the sins "good people" find acceptable. So you can have your morality, so long and you do not fall into the illusion it is comparable to the standard of God.

That implies that without hearing the word of God you can not be moral, which is obviously a complete fallacy. I scarcely know any of God's teachings and I would like to think I am moral. The same goes for places like Denmark which has the highest percentage of Atheists, please look at their crime statisitics!

For this we can look into the past and see how prejudice and popular culture dictated a "moral" doctrine for a society, and get some sense of how this might proceed.

Which indicates as a culture our morals are evolving and hopefully improving, so why anchor any morals to the absolutes of the past?

what if Hitler won the war, and "you were brought up to think" that Jews and the physically or mentally challenged were bad? Would you fall in to popular culture as you are now? Or would an absolute standard like the bible be a guiding light in societal darkness?

You need to study WWII in more detail to really understand what was happening (as do I). The Nazis dealt with absolutes 'Jews are bad', which I am arguing is wrong. The Bible doesn't exactly fit the guiding light description unless you reinterpret it with a modern perspective. Do I need to list what I am referring to regarding slavery, rape, incest, genocide, baby killings, ethnic cleansing (like the Nazis) not to mention the terrible things dealt by Gods hand. You can choose to ignore what it is says in the OT regarding the price paid for a human being and the rules of slave keeping. It does not mean it wasn't once meant to be a moral guide, but it has been superseded and clinging to old morals is wrong in my eyes.

Without "absolutes" we have no measure of what is right or wrong really is. We would only have what society is willing to justify or condemn. That is a sliding scale of ever more depraved behavior.

Who decides what is wrong other than society? God certainly doesn't intervene to prevent evil, we have to do it for ourselves. Can you give a few examples of absolutes we couldn't live without? I can't think of any.

 

[drich0150]

So anything that does not support your beliefs is counter productive?

Can you elaborate on this?

Murder is defined as the unsanctioned taking of a human Life.

How is killing Hitler not murdering him? In both instances you are taking a life, if you argue that it is not murder because it's for the greater good then you aren't using absolutes.

The bible gives us examples of when taking a human life is permitted.

That implies that without hearing the word of God you can not be moral, which is obviously a complete fallacy.

Actually "Morality" can only be established outside or apart of God righteousness (If you are trying to accurately represent what I said)

I scarcely know any of God's teachings and I would like to think I am moral.

My point exactly.

The same goes for places like Denmark which has the highest percentage of Atheists, please look at their crime statistics!

Again, "Morality" is defined by the society we live in. Apart from God.
Oscar Schindler was a "Moral" man when compared to other Nazis. However when you put His actions into an absolute context, You can still see him for what he is.

Which indicates as a culture our morals are evolving and hopefully improving, so why anchor any morals to the absolutes of the past?

Because unlike the morality you are defending it is not based in popular culture. It s a standard designed to identify sin for only one reason. So that we may seek absolution for our sins.

The Nazis dealt with absolutes 'Jews are bad', which I am arguing is wrong.

You did not answer the question I ask. you went through many hoops and my question remains. Do you need me to ask it again?

The Bible doesn't exactly fit the guiding light description unless you reinterpret it with a modern perspective. Do I need to list what I am referring to regarding slavery, rape, incest, genocide, baby killings, ethnic cleansing (like the Nazis) not to mention the terrible things dealt by Gods hand. You can choose to ignore what it is says in the OT regarding the price paid for a human being and the rules of slave keeping. It does not mean it wasn't once meant to be a moral guide, but it has been superseded and clinging to old morals is wrong in my eyes.

..and you are ... who?

Who decides what is wrong other than society?

God.

God certainly doesn't intervene to prevent evil, we have to do it for ourselves.

If God intervened, then how exactly would free will work? Do you not understand that Evil is the proof of free will? If their was no evil then we would be (by force) in the Expressed will of God.

Can you give a few examples of absolutes we couldn't live without?

We must breath, We must eat, We Must drink, We must Choose what we will do with the one they call Christ.

I can't think of any.

because that would be "counter productive" to your argument.

 

[GrayAngel]

[FONT=&quot]I thought it was one of the deadly sins? I must be wrong, thanks.[/FONT]

The Seven Deadly Sins is a Catholic thing. It's not universally accepted, and I'm pretty sure the seven are not listed in the Bible as any more "deadly" than other sins.

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]So anything that does not support your beliefs is counter productive?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No, what I said was anchoring your morals to the past is. If we didn’t let go of the past we would still be living in the dark ages, progress requires change what is confusing about this?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Murder is defined as the unsanctioned taking of a human Life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who has the power to sanction the killing? If you say God then how does he let us know? As far as I am aware God’s voice has never sounded in a court room before the death penalty was given.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The bible gives us examples of when taking a human life is permitted.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So we aren’t really debating anything are we? I thought you were saying we need absolute moral rules such as ‘do not kill’.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I scarcely know any of God's teachings and I would like to think I am moral.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My point exactly.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your point is that you don’t need to even know the commandments in order to be moral? I think that is my point, that we are inherently moral![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again, "Morality" is defined by the society we live in. Apart from God.
Oscar Schindler was a "Moral" man when compared to other Nazis. However when you put His actions into an absolute context, You can still see him for what he is.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I would see your point if you couldn’t plainly see what is written in the Bible. God orders the genocide of entire cities, every man woman and child as just one example. I agree it is society that dictates the moral code of the age, which is exactly why morals have changed from biblical times and why anchoring your morals to the past doesn’t allow for improvement. Improvement because clearly western society is advancing, which means you are choosing to ignore the out-dated parts of the bible.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]You did not answer the question I ask. you went through many hoops and my question remains. Do you need me to ask it again?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Because it is an impossible question to answer. How could I know how I would have behaved? It was a terrible event in German history, which was largely acted by Christians. In fact Hitler often played on the Christian prejudice felt towards Jews (for killing Jesus) to rally hatred against them. Does this point the finger of blame towards Christians? NO! It suggests to me that morals can be altered, so it is societies responsibility to maintain the moral code of the time. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For example what if the bible was written by Nazi-minded individuals 2000 years ago? Would that mean we should follow it? Or would you suggest using common sense to see that it is wrong? I prefer the latter and prefer it if individuals think for themselves.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]..and you are ... who?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quite an average person, yet even I can see the immorality in the bible. Why can’t you? Why do you choose to ignore the terrible crimes committed by God and reinterpret anything you can plainly see is outdated?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who decides what is wrong other than society?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What moral guidance has God given us? His own actions are terrible in the bible and he hasn’t updated any of his rules on slavery or homosexual rights or even equality for women. If all of our morals came from God he has been a bit late in letting us know the new order, so humans have done it for themselves.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God certainly doesn't intervene to prevent evil, we have to do it for ourselves.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If God intervened, then how exactly would free will work? Do you not understand that Evil is the proof of free will? If their was no evil then we would be (by force) in the Expressed will of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is there any evil in heaven? Do we have free will in heaven? Do angels have free will? Anyway if you admit God won’t help, then that shows humans need to take a stand and decide for ourselves how we want to live.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Can you give a few examples of absolutes we couldn't live without?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We must breath, We must eat, We Must drink, We must Choose what we will do with the one they call Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do any of your examples have anything to do with morals? There are thousands of things we need for life to exist but we aqre discussing morals. What moral absolutes are there, without contradicting yourself?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I can't think of any.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]because that would be "counter productive" to your argument.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My argument is merely that society evolves through time, absolute morals do not really exist without exceptions. You haven’t provided any examples to counter the argument.[/FONT]

 

[razeontherock]

What moral guidance has God given us? His own actions are terrible in the bible and he hasn’t updated any of his rules on slavery or homosexual rights or even equality for women.

FALSE. You can't possibly make statements like this based on reading the NT, and you can't properly apply the OT w/o mastering the NT first.

Equal rights are a big thing in the NT, and all the blood and gore you're so worried about in the OT you have no idea how to apply to this life, but here's a primer:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."