The Shack

[South Bound]

Wow, that's a stretch! First of all, I agreed with you that if what you say is true about the movie then there are heretical statements. Second, I haven't tried to "explain away" God's immutable nature; in fact I said that His immutability speaks *to* His nature. And finally, I have never said I didn't believe His Word despite your unsubstantiated claim to the contrary.

It's been real.

So is God's nature man or spirit

 

[dysert]

As I already said (post #34), God is spirit.

 

[South Bound]

As I already said (post #34), God is spirit.

So you say that God is spirit and God is immutable but you also say:

Well given that God is spirit, I think He can manifest Himself anyway He wants to, so I don't see that as heretical.

 

[dayhiker]

I think heretical is too strong a word. Christians have had differences from the Bible times to today. In my mind thing that are heretical are things that will separate that person from God. Most of the eastern church believed that in the end God would redeem all of creation back to Himself. That was as big a church as the western church if not bigger till Islam conquered them and forced them to convert. That is the area that most of the apostles of Christ took the gospel to when they left Jerusalem.

 

[South Bound]

I think heretical is too strong a word. Christians have had differences from the Bible times to today. In my mind thing that are heretical are things that will separate that person from God.

A false gospel does separate a person from God.

The things we're talking about are not adiaphora. They're not negotiable.

We're talking about things that define the Gospel and which side of these things you come down on determines whether you're following the Gospel of Christ or a false gospel.

 

[Archivist]

A false gospel does separate a person from God.

The things we're talking about are not adiaphora. They're not negotiable.

We're talking about things that define the Gospel and which side of these things you come down on determines whether you're following the Gospel of Christ or a false gospel.

According to your interpretation of scripture.

 

[mnphysicist]

A false gospel does separate a person from God.

The things we're talking about are not adiaphora. They're not negotiable.

We're talking about things that define the Gospel and which side of these things you come down on determines whether you're following the Gospel of Christ or a false gospel.

So Salvation depends upon perfect Christology, and thus folks who deny Mary as the Mother of God, believed that God died on the cross, or teach the trinity using the analogy of ice, steam and liquid all being water are not saved? Or that Copts, Nestorians, Oriental Orthodox, Quakers,Church of Christ and Eastern Christians are not saved, being they do not ascribe to the first seven ecumenical councils? Not even the Catholic church goes that far. Again, this is not to say Christology is not important, but egads.

 

[South Bound]

So Salvation depends upon perfect Christology

No, just sound Christology

 

[mkgal1]

Some people already are falling for the heresies in the movie.

.....or some people are so locked in to their dogma they can't see another perspective (do you recall the Pharisees and their inability to recognize their Messiah?). The account of the stoning of Stephen is --IMO--a really important passage to study. There's a LOT going on there that can easily be missed if just glossed over. ** I mentioned all that, because it's a good biblical example of what happens when we allow our dogma to stagnate our beliefs (and don't allow for ANY flexibility).

 

[mkgal1]

Alas, some folks integrate PSA theory into the Gospel and near totally ignore the 7 other major theories to say nothing of the minor ones.

I think some (many) don't realize that all we have are theories. As an aside, I didn't realize there were so many.

Bottom line, the film pushes the edges of a box that man chose to put God in. I think that's a good thing, as it causes folks to think through what they really believe... and more so, might lead a few to dig into the scriptures.

I completely agree. Well said.

 

[mkgal1]

No, just sound Christology

Wow.....so your belief of God is that He draws a hard line on the knowledge/understanding/beliefs people have? They better get it right or they burn eternally?

 

[mkgal1]

Portraying God the Father and God the Holy Spirit as humans, stating that the three persons of the Godhead submit to one another

For one thing: this occurred in Mac's dream--it wasn't depicted literally. And why is it so unfathomable that the Trinity--being One--submits to one another?

 

[mkgal1]

Southbound--do you not believe Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate?

 

[dysert]

For one thing: this occurred in Mac's dream--it wasn't depicted literally. And why is it so unfathomable that the Trinity--being One--submits to one another?

And not only unfathomable, but, according to some, heretical. This is great. Someone claiming heresy based on their understanding of the Trinity. I daresay NO ONE on earth knows how the Trinity "works" and yet there are those who judge based on it. Sad.

 

[South Bound]

.....or some people are so locked in to their dogma they can't see another perspective

The Bible doesn't allow for "other perspectives". It says that there is sound doctrine and unsound doctrine.

For one thing: this occurred in Mac's dream--it wasn't depicted literally.

Irrelevant. It's still part of the story and still part of the movie's description of "God".

And why is it so unfathomable that the Trinity--being One--submits to one another?

Because it contradicts God's Word, which states that there is a hierarchy within the Godhead and that it is man who is to submit to God, never God to man.

Wow.....so your belief of God is that He draws a hard line on the knowledge/understanding/beliefs people have. They better get it right or the burn eternally?

That's what He says in His Word. It's why He places such a high priority on sound doctrine and tells us to mark those who preach another gospel. It's why He warns us to beware of false teachers.

....and how do we discern when there are things left to mystery (which is a LOT)?

By reading what God has to say about them in His Word

We don't know the "why" of a lot of things, because the Bible doesn't spell that out for us

But the things we're talking about are spelled out explicitly in scripture

Are you the official arbiter of what is sound doctrine?

The Bible gives each believer the responsibility of guarding sound doctrine.

That you have abdicated that responsibility is between you and Him.

Where in Scripture does it speak of this hierarchy?

How can there be subordination / hierarchy in the Trinity?

And where in the movie does it show God submitting to man?

It's on pp145-146 of the book and is repeated in the movie.

Isn't it said in the Bible that Jesus is "the mediator between God and man"?

Yes, Jesus is the Mediator between God and man, not Mary

Now was that just a random non-sequitur or did you mean it to have something to do with what I said?

The Trinity didn't come as doctrine until 300 years after Jesus, so you'd be right.

No the Trinity wasn't codified by the Church until about 300 years after Jesus. That doesn't mean it isn't still plainly taught in scripture.

 

[dysert]

The Bible doesn't allow for "other perspectives". It says that there is sound doctrine and unsound doctrine.

Are you the official arbiter of what is sound doctrine?

Because it contradicts God's Word, which states that there is a hierarchy within the Godhead and that it is man who is to submit to God, never God to man.

Where in Scripture does it speak of this hierarchy? And where in the movie does it show God submitting to man?

 

[mkgal1]

The Bible doesn't allow for "other perspectives". It says that there is sound doctrine and unsound doctrine.

....and how do we discern when there are things left to mystery (which is a LOT)? In my opinion---that's where we get caught up--assumptions and conjecture become restricted dogma. We don't know the "why" of a lot of things, because the Bible doesn't spell that out for us (but many have spoken/written as if they KNOW the mind of God--the theories of at-one-ment, for instance....and even salvation isn't crystal clear, but left to some mystery).

 

[mkgal1]

And not only unfathomable, but, according to some, heretical.

I'm not a biblical scholar....but from what I've read up on, according to what was debated at the early church councils (still conjecture, like you said)--it was a belief in a hierarchical Trinity that was determined to be heterodox.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Portraying God the Father and God the Holy Spirit as humans, stating that the three persons of the Godhead submit to one another and to an, Universalism, the idea that the three persons of the Godhead "spoke ourselves into existence as the son of god", when "Papa" claims that Jesus never drew upon His divine power or authority as God, where "Jesus" says that he's merely one of any ways man may relate to God, etc

Isn't it said in the Bible that Jesus is "the mediator between God and man"?

 

[CrystalDragon]

I'm not a biblical scholar....but from what I've read up on, according to what was debated at the early church councils (still conjecture, like you said)--it was a belief in a hierarchical Trinity that was determined to be heterodox.

The Trinity didn't come as doctrine until 300 years after Jesus, so you'd be right.