the self replicating watch argument

[doubtingmerle]

Your objection is already dismissed by the premise, which was for "self replicating" objects. No-one is suggesting that a modern BMW could "have babies" so your objection is intellectually dishonest.

I was not talking about the concept of a modern Bmw having babies. I was talking about the topic of this thread, which talks about theoretical cars having babies.

They can't.

See Could cars reproduce?

 

[Jon Osterman]

I was not talking about the concept of a modern Bmw having babies. I was talking about the topic of this thread, which talks about theoretical cars having babies.

They can't.

Why not? How are you defining “car”?

 

[bhsmte]

Why not? How are you defining “car”?

How is this?

a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Why not? How are you defining “car”?

A car is a non-living mechanical device for transporting people.

Cars can not have babies. See Could cars reproduce?

 

[Jon Osterman]

Well, either of these definitions would allow for a "car" that could "have babies". Just put a car factory on four wheels. Admittedly this isn't terribly feasible at the moment, but I suspect the time will come when we can 3d-print cars. Then you could 3d-print a "baby car" while inside another car.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Well, either of these definitions would allow for a "car" that could "have babies". Just put a car factory on four wheels. Admittedly this isn't terribly feasible at the moment, but I suspect the time will come when we can 3d-print cars. Then you could 3d-print a "baby car" while inside another car.

A car that prints out a mini replica of itself is not difficult. The problem is that miniature mechanical replicas cannot grow up to become adult cars, and are not true baby cars.

 

[Jon Osterman]

Why not? It is not too difficult to imagine a process where the baby cars collect materials, and continuously print new parts to eventually give themselves a bigger body and more powerful engine.

 

[truefiction1]

Sure, please provide a source for me to examine.

I have been providing a source in every single one of my posts.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Why not? It is not too difficult to imagine a process where the baby cars collect materials, and continuously print new parts to eventually give themselves a bigger body and more powerful engine.

It would not only need to make the parts, but assemble them and repair itself.

How would it ever replace its own engine block or its chassis with one slightly larger?

But if you really had a car that could do all of that, couldn't it also evolve? If it can keep replacing its engine and chassis with bigger ones, what is to stop it from building a chassis even bigger than its mother car had?

 

[Jon Osterman]

It would not only need to make the parts, but assemble them and repair itself.

Sure. Why not. Self repairing mechanisms are not unreasonable.

How would it ever replace its own engine block or its chassis with one slightly larger?

I am not sure why you are having an issue with this. Do you understand that modern cars are not made by people - they are made by machines. Machines can be fairly easily designed to build engines and body parts, as well as assemble them.

But if you really had a car that could do all of that, couldn't it also evolve? If it can keep replacing its engine and chassis with bigger ones, what is to stop it from building a chassis even bigger than its mother car had?

That would depend on how it was programmed. To see evolution you would need to have some programmed design that is passed on to new builds, which can contain errors, and then some external selection process to decide which models were fittest.

This wouldn't have to be a formal blueprint of coure. Imagine a machine that lived in a very large junkyard. It could move around and pick up scrap and could use that scrap to build new machines. It's programming tells it to make a new machine as similar to itself as possible, but since the scrap bits are random sizes there is some variation in the builds. Now imagine environmental hazzards in the junkyard. Some of the new builds will be better at surving these than others, so will survive more frequently to build new machines. After meny generations the machines will have "evolved" to cope with the hazzards more successfully.

 

[truefiction1]

But but what about my self replicating robot penguin car? Can it evolve into a dog?

Checkmate evolutionist.

The musing that is to follow isn't necessarily directed at you (it's just that your interjection of humor in the form of such a question has naturally paved the way to opening a much heavier can of worms):

... And what about smug Europeans afflicted with self-love and sinful passions? Can they evolve into sick, murderous, genocidal mad dogs, when in their arrogance they decide that there to be no God to answer to?

The facts of history give clear evidence that they do indeed evolve into monsters.

Our thoughts determine our lives, and have the power to shape the the world that we, our children, and our grandchildren must live in. There will be an ultimate reckoning before God, by every single one of us, for our contributions, whether these supported the formation of a good world, or of a hell on earth. Thus, humble diligence and sobriety of thought, with charity and compassion, are advisable for all of us, whoever and wherever we may be.

... just sayin'

 

[Skreeper]

... And what about smug Europeans afflicted with self-love and sinful passions? Can they evolve into sick, murderous, genocidal mad dogs, when in their arrogance they decide that there to be no God to answer to?

The facts of history give clear evidence that they do indeed evolve into monsters.

I have sinful passions but I don't love myself, I love my partner though. But somehow I am not a monster, what a shocking turn of events.

 

[truefiction1]

I have sinful passions but I don't love myself, I love my partner though. But somehow I am not a monster, what a shocking turn of events.

Sure. Real shocking.

 

[Skreeper]

Sure. Real shocking.

And calling us "smug Europeans" monsters is a little harsh, don't you think? Its not us who have to deal with mass shootings almost every day. We already found the solution to that problem.

 

[truefiction1]

And calling us "smug Europeans" monsters is a little harsh, don't you think? Its not us who have to deal with mass shootings almost every day. We already found the solution to that problem.

Wasn't distinguishing Europeans from Americans, or any of peoples with that comment. Smugness/arrogance is a universal sort of human phenomena, and any or all of them put together have evolved (or disintegrated) into something like brute beasts.

 

[Kylie]

I have been providing a source in every single one of my posts.

No you haven't. You've made claims. Claims are not evidence. Anyone can make claims. I can claim that my house is made out of a giant mushroom, doesn't make it true.

You need to provide EVIDENCE to back up your claims.

 

[doubtingmerle]

... And what about smug Europeans afflicted with self-love and sinful passions? Can they evolve into sick, murderous, genocidal mad dogs, when in their arrogance they decide that there to be no God to answer to?


... just sayin'

Oh, that us miserable worthless humans would never have the feeling of self love or self worth!

[/sarcasm]

 

[Snappy1]

Wasn't distinguishing Europeans from Americans,

... And what about smug Europeans

Ok

 

[doubtingmerle]

I am not sure why you are having an issue with this. Do you understand that modern cars are not made by people - they are made by machines. Machines can be fairly easily designed to build engines and body parts, as well as assemble them.

I am well aware of automated manufacturing. I design it for a living.

Do you realize how big a Ford factory is? If you are going to have a self replicating Ford that manufacturers itself, you are going to need to duplicate all the functions in that factory. And you are going to need to duplicate all the functions in the factories of the suppliers, such as makers of tires and computer chips. Then you are going to need to include all the functions in the factories and contractors that build all these factories, and everything that builds those factories, etc.

And no, cars are not made exclusively by machines. There are thousands of people involved. So if the cars are really going to make themselves, you need machines that do all the maintenance and machine attendant functions currently done by people.

And then you put that all on wheels, and you end up with a "car" about the size of Detroit.

It probably could not even be done by a single machine, but hundreds of cooperative machines that together do all the functions and together build all the machines, perhaps that could be done. But that huge mobile factory wouldn't really be what we call a "car".

That would depend on how it was programmed. To see evolution you would need to have some programmed design that is passed on to new builds, which can contain errors, and then some external selection process to decide which models were fittest.

This wouldn't have to be a formal blueprint of coure. Imagine a machine that lived in a very large junkyard. It could move around and pick up scrap and could use that scrap to build new machines. It's programming tells it to make a new machine as similar to itself as possible, but since the scrap bits are random sizes there is some variation in the builds. Now imagine environmental hazzards in the junkyard. Some of the new builds will be better at surving these than others, so will survive more frequently to build new machines. After meny generations the machines will have "evolved" to cope with the hazzards more successfully.

A group of machines such as mentioned above could also evolve by running genetic algorithms in the computers that run the system. The computers would run programs in the background to simulate how everything works with the real world conditions, and the computers could test new parameters to see how they would work. They could then modify each new generation of machine based on what they find. The result could be a continuously modifying factory system.

So giant factories on wheels could conceivably build themselves. But anyway, your point of all this is what, exactly?

 

[truefiction1]

Ok

I could have said smug Americans (after all, they have also committed crimes against humanity), but my reference was to the mass murders which took place on European soil in both Nazi Germany and the Communist countries, especially in the former Soviet Union (where my own ancestors were from). So, no, it's like I said: I wasn't distinguishing any one nationality from another. I was trying to illustrate the point that when nations forget about God, they soon turn into bloodthirsty killers of human beings, as historical facts bear strong witness.