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the self replicating watch argument

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doubtingmerle

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Look at it this way, it doesn't matter about those few animals, because we had billions of other animals alive at the same time, with similar features, that could not leave fossils. You obsess on the few fossils of the few creatures that happened to be able to fossilize, as if they represented life on earth! Ridiculous. You CANNOT take those few fossils and try to imagine them as the ancestors. They were just evolved kinds at the time, who could fossilize probably.
You should study up on statistical methods. If I want to tell if a factory is turning out good cookies, do I need to eat every single one? No, that is not how it works. Rather, workers take representative samples at different times and test them for quality. If the samples show the cookies are excellent at noon, good at 4 PM, and mediocre at 8 PM, then something must be wrong with the process, and it is getting worse.

Likewise if the fossil record takes a representative sample deep in the record and finds only reptile fossils, and takes a sample further up and finds some with a bulge on the jaw, and later finds a bigger bulge, and later finds that bulge acting as a second jaw joint so the animal has both a reptile and mammal joint, and later finds animals that have only a mammal joint, then that is a clear indication that things have been changing. We are not talking about a few fossils. We are talking about thousands of fossils in hundreds of species showing this pattern.

If you want to show the sample size is too small to be significant, prove it. Scientists are strongly convinced that the sample size is more than enough to be significant. You have presented zero evidence that it is not.

Now, of course you could argue that it is not representative, that there was some systematic cause that made the animals fossilize in a sequence that did not represent what was there. Going back to the factory example, if the worker who takes the sample at noon takes all from the left side of the oven, the sample at 4 is taken from the right side, and the sample at 8 is taken from the middle, then we do not have a representative sampling. Different samples were taken different ways, so the trend might not be meaningful. Likewise, if your claim is that nature was changing throughout this time, you could claim that this constant change of nature is what causes the phenomenon.

That is why I have been asking you in multiple different ways whether you think the trend is just luck because the sample size is too small, or if you think there was some systematic changing of nature causing the fossil record to lay down fossils in the order shown. I have had absolutely no success in getting you to actually address the question. Instead you break my messages into tweets, make irrelevant points about each tweet, miss the overall point, and declare victory!

So if you claim that the pattern we see in the fossils is not meaningful because the sample size is too small, statistics show you are flat out wrong. If you claim it is not meaningful, because nature was constantly changing into a different nature hundreds of times throughout the course of history, Occam's Razor says you are wrong. And if you say the jaw really was evolving as the record shows, but that full mammals were walking around the whole time that others were evolving the mammal jaw, your idea is laughable.

So whatever it is you are claiming, it is wrong. You refuse to be nailed down as to what you believe. You float back and forth between the explanations above. When we explain what was wrong with one view, you switch to another, and then later come right back to the first in a blinding display of flipflopping. This proves nothing. All it proves is that it is impossible to nail jello to the wall.

Well, if more creatures turned to meat eating, we would see changes in jaws.
I won't bother to respond to all the jibberish in your post, but this one is just too silly to pass up. For the record, many dinosaurs ate meat. So no, the mammal jaw was not something that evolved to allow animals to eat meat. And besides, this statement is an argument for evolution, which you will quickly drop when pressed on it, and switch back to one of your other explanations, so why even bother addressing your error? All I need to do is wait 2 days, and you will switch to a different explanation.
 
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theQuincunx5

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Life was created and evolved up to what we know today. The universe is mind made and mind managed.

This has always seemed to me to be the most reasonable approach that allows both religious belief AND science.

(I don't necessarily agree with it, but indeed it seems to be the one version of God-as-Creator concept that makes the most sense and is very hard to debate against).
 
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dad

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You should study up on statistical methods. If I want to tell if a factory is turning out good cookies, do I need to eat every single one? No, that is not how it works. Rather, workers take representative samples at different times and test them for quality. If the samples show the cookies are excellent at noon, good at 4 PM, and mediocre at 8 PM, then something must be wrong with the process, and it is getting worse.
There are no cookies that matter at your fossil factory. Man and lions and wolves and birds and etc etc were here at the same time the few misbegotten fossils you have were here. So you can't 'count every single one' or even any at all of the important kinds of life.
Likewise if the fossil record takes a representative sample deep in the record and finds only reptile fossils, and takes a sample further up and finds some with a bulge on the jaw, and later finds a bigger bulge, and later finds that bulge acting as a second jaw joint so the animal has both a reptile and mammal joint, and later finds animals that have only a mammal joint, then that is a clear indication that things have been changing. We are not talking about a few fossils. We are talking about thousands of fossils in hundreds of species showing this pattern.
No it isn't. It merely is an indication that possibly nature and/or the world and temperature/climate/conditions/diet etc etc may have been changing. Maybe the created kinds of animals also was changing to adapt. But what was created, and what changed, and why and when you have no idea. At the SAME time whatever fossils you found were changing, maybe millions of species or thousands of species or hundreds...were ALSO changing. Maybe many had similar features as the few fossils you did find! The only thing you can see is the few fossils you have. You then try to model all life on earth as having evolved from those few few few few few pieces of the big big big puzzle!!! Totally absurd and religious.
If you want to show the sample size is too small to be significant, prove it. Scientists are strongly convinced that the sample size is more than enough to be significant. You have presented zero evidence that it is not.
That is because they believe believe believe believe that all life was in the present nature and therefore could have fossilized. So when they see fossils they believe they represent a cross section of life on earth for the time. No. No. No.
Now, of course you could argue that it is not representative, that there was some systematic cause that made the animals fossilize in a sequence that did not represent what was there. Going back to the factory example, if the worker who takes the sample at noon takes all from the left side of the oven, the sample at 4 is taken from the right side, and the sample at 8 is taken from the middle, then we do not have a representative sampling. Different samples were taken different ways, so the trend might not be meaningful. Likewise, if your claim is that nature was changing throughout this time, you could claim that this constant change of nature is what causes the phenomenon.
Yes there was a cause. ALL nature n the different past worked together in a way that man and most animals could not leave remains, most probably. They systematically could NOT leave fossilized remains. From dust man came, and apparently back then, to dust we returned...not to fossils.

So if you claim that the pattern we see in the fossils is not meaningful because the sample size is too small, statistics show you are flat out wrong. If you claim it is not meaningful, because nature was constantly changing into a different nature hundreds of times throughout the course of history, Occam's Razor says you are wrong. And if you say the jaw really was evolving as the record shows, but that full mammals were walking around the whole time that others were evolving the mammal jaw, your idea is laughable.
Your problem is that your samples in their entirety, do NOT include most life on earth at the time! Why is that hard to comprehend? Seems simple to me.


I won't bother to respond to all the jibberish in your post, but this one is just too silly to pass up. For the record, many dinosaurs ate meat.
Of course they did. God's clean up crew of the day had to dispose of dead meat, and even be part of the fallen new imbalance of nature!

So no, the mammal jaw was not something that evolved to allow animals to eat meat.
Maybe not. Maybe. Who knows?
And besides, this statement is an argument for evolution, which you will quickly drop when pressed on it, and switch back to one of your other explanations, so why even bother addressing your error? All I need to do is wait 2 days, and you will switch to a different explanation.
Yes...evolution FROM the CREATED kinds that happened fast in the different former nature.
 
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Colter

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The creation narrative written by the Israelites, about themselves, didn't come about by scientific observation or methods, it came about by human speculation and conjecture and is maintained by faith in the false doctrine of inspiration.....which was created by the same sort of shaman.

Evolution came about via scientific observation and does not require faith. The more we study the earth the less it looks like the YEC story of Genesis.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Your problem is that your samples in their entirety, do NOT include most life on earth at the time! Why is that hard to comprehend? Seems simple to me.

Your problem is that you don't realize that statistical methods do not need to sample most of the items. A small sample is fine.

The inspector does not need to eat most of the cookies made in the factory to show the process is in control.

Nielsen ratings do not need to sample most of the tv's to determine what is popular.

As few as 25 items can be sampled from a billion items to produce statistically significant results.

Show me the (very fat) inspector who eats most of the cookies made in a factory, and I will agree with you that some knowledgeable people agree with you.
 
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dad

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Your problem is that you don't realize that statistical methods do not need to sample most of the items. A small sample is fine.
A small sample of all life would be fine. Instead you have a small sample of a tiny tiny tiny tiny little eensy teensy bit of only a small fraction of the variety of life that existed.
The inspector does not need to eat most of the cookies made in the factory to show the process is in control.
He does need to be on the right planet, and aware that more than cookies were made.
Nielsen ratings do not need to sample most of the tv's to determine what is popular.
Nielsen doesn't cover Noah.
As few as 25 items can be sampled from a billion items to produce statistically significant results.
If they are taken from something that represents the whole. In your case, that doesn't begin to apply even a little bit.
Show me the (very fat) inspector who eats most of the cookies made in a factory, and I will agree with you that some knowledgeable people agree with you.
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

If the inspector was not so fat from never getting anywhere but the cookie factory, he might realize it was not the only factory that ever existed.
 
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doubtingmerle

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A small sample of all life would be fine. Instead you have a small sample of a tiny tiny tiny tiny little eensy teensy bit of only a small fraction of the variety of life that existed.
Even if this is true, so what? A sample of 25 out of a billion billion billion can be significant.

Probably millions of trilobites have been found, all well below the kt boundary. Many eohippus have been found, all above the kt boundary. That is strong evidence the trilobites were before the Eohippus. We do not need to find most of the trilobites and eohippus to conclude this. 25 of each is more than enough.
 
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dad

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Even if this is true, so what? A sample of 25 out of a billion billion billion can be significant.
No. Since MOST life probably could not fossilize at all, the few fossils you do have are not significant to the big picture.
Probably millions of trilobites have been found, all well below the kt boundary.
Right, so they could fossilize...so?
Many eohippus have been found, all above the kt boundary. That is strong evidence the trilobites were before the Eohippus.

That doesn't sau much. If the trilobites were pre flood, and the other things post flood, why would one not precede the other?? Yet, whatever kind the eohippus evolved from was alive and well when trilobites were here!

We do not need to find most of the trilobites and eohippus to conclude this. 25 of each is more than enough.
All we can say then is that the trilobites did live before the post flood creature you cite. Whoopee doo.
 
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doubtingmerle

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All we can say then is that the trilobites did live before the post flood creature you cite. Whoopee doo.
Uh, my claim was that we can tell from the fossil record that trilobites probably lived before eohippus. You have been denying this repeatedly, but now seem to agree that we can tell this from the fossil record. So it may be small, but I would finally have found something that you and I agree on. Do we know this from the fossil record or not?



No. Since MOST life probably could not fossilize at all, the few fossils you do have are not significant to the big picture.
How do you know that most life could not fossilize?

Was there a time when only eohippus could fossilize, followed by a time for mesohippus, followed by miohippus? Why are they found in order?
 
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DogmaHunter

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This has always seemed to me to be the most reasonable approach that allows both religious belief AND science.

(I don't necessarily agree with it, but indeed it seems to be the one version of God-as-Creator concept that makes the most sense and is very hard to debate against).

That is, until abiogenesis gets solved.
And then this god of the gaps will be pushed back further and further into total irrelevancy.

But other then that, I agree.
At least such an approach doesn't require one to ignore / reject solid science like biology.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No. Since MOST life probably could not fossilize at all, the few fossils you do have are not significant to the big picture.
Right, so they could fossilize...so?


That doesn't sau much. If the trilobites were pre flood, and the other things post flood, why would one not precede the other?? Yet, whatever kind the eohippus evolved from was alive and well when trilobites were here!

All we can say then is that the trilobites did live before the post flood creature you cite. Whoopee doo.

The kt boundary, is not a marking of the biblical flood.

Nothing marks that flood. Because that flood, never happened.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Uh, my claim was that we can tell from the fossil record that trilobites probably lived before eohippus. You have been denying this repeatedly, but now seem to agree that we can tell this from the fossil record. So it may be small, but I would finally have found something that you and I agree on. Do we know this from the fossil record or not?




How do you know that most life could not fossilize?

Was there a time when only eohippus could fossilize, followed by a time for mesohippus, followed by miohippus? Why are they found in order?


I guess Satan arranged them like that just for the lolz.
Perhaps, Last Thursday.
 
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doubtingmerle

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I guess Satan arranged them like that just for the lolz.
Perhaps, Last Thursday.
Yeah, I had somebody tell me that once--Satan put all those fossils down there because he knew he had to do that to fool smart people!
 
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DogmaHunter

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Yeah, I had somebody tell me that once--Satan put all those fossils down there because he knew he had to do that to fool smart people!

Yep. Anything goes, when one allows for "magic".
 
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dad

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The kt boundary, is not a marking of the biblical flood.
Say what?? How would you know?
Nothing marks that flood. Because that flood, never happened.
Ah, now we see why you are opinionated...your religion is rigid.

My beliefs are wonderfully adaptive. I have looked at all reality, evidences, science facts, history and the bible, and tried to be open minded and accept as much as possible.
 
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